Does God intervene?
- Thread starter NoelFitz
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Garyjohn2 (#12)
You make a lot of sense, and I agree with you partially, perhaps I should have been more precise in my earlier posts.
If telling someone ‘obey me or I will kill you’ could be construed as not giving the person a free choice in normal circumstances. However God seems not to intervene; he allows us to go to hell,seemingly not caring as he could prevent this happening.
Also I consider that those of us now in the stage of grace are saints. Also many who live healthily die young.
We cannot on out own do anything to please God, we need grace, so we cannot on our own freely choose to please God.
You make a lot of sense, and I agree with you partially, perhaps I should have been more precise in my earlier posts.
If telling someone ‘obey me or I will kill you’ could be construed as not giving the person a free choice in normal circumstances. However God seems not to intervene; he allows us to go to hell,seemingly not caring as he could prevent this happening.
Also I consider that those of us now in the stage of grace are saints. Also many who live healthily die young.
We cannot on out own do anything to please God, we need grace, so we cannot on our own freely choose to please God.
L
LethalMouse
Guest
You are here disagreeing or questioning a 2000 yr old institution with myraids of explanations on the faith.
You are questioning God.
So I don’t feel overly bad when someone who fits that bill puts me in the category of non comprhension
LM #14
You wrote ‘Hell is heaven without God. Not so torturous on the surface’. Scripture has spoken about the fire and pain in hell. But many now, including the pope, stress the view of souls suffering from loss of God in hell, not the pain of fire.
Your talk of marriage is off-topic.
You wrote ‘Hell is heaven without God. Not so torturous on the surface’. Scripture has spoken about the fire and pain in hell. But many now, including the pope, stress the view of souls suffering from loss of God in hell, not the pain of fire.
Your talk of marriage is off-topic.
PianistClare # 17
Jesus referred to the fires of hell, as I wrote before. One example is:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ (Mk. 9:47-48 NAB)
I am lucky that for the last 25 years I have a spiritual adviser, whom I see about every two weeks for a few hours, when I act as his driver. He is an Opus Dei priest with a PhD in philosophy and both of us are interested in theology. We get on very well and he helps me.
Jesus referred to the fires of hell, as I wrote before. One example is:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ (Mk. 9:47-48 NAB)
I am lucky that for the last 25 years I have a spiritual adviser, whom I see about every two weeks for a few hours, when I act as his driver. He is an Opus Dei priest with a PhD in philosophy and both of us are interested in theology. We get on very well and he helps me.
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
It just could be that God first loved each and everyone of us as he loves himself
Jesus died for me and you, that must mean he loves us as he loves himself. Why would Jesus go through all that suffering, if he then wants to send us to hell?
L
LethalMouse
Guest
Jesus also spoke off topic. How does a son sleeping with pigs not mean He was off topic from heaven and God?
Oh that is right, your level of understanding explains why you are here arguing that God is wrong.
God = wrong?
LM = wrong?
???
I’ll join that crew.
DaddyGirl # 20
The Bible clearly show that hell and its punishments exist, as does the infallible teaching of the Church, eg the 4th Lateran Council (1215) declared “Those (the rejected) will receive a perpetual punishment with the devil”.
This view is not acceptable to many now, and recent popes, St JP II. B XVI and Francis, (and the CCC) try to play down the claims about the fires of hell. In Ireland it seems most modern Catholic theologians hold in universalism, that all will be saved.
Hans Urs von Balthasar, B XVI’s favorite theologian wrote:
“If we take our faith seriously and respect the words of Scripture, we must resign ourselves to admitting such an ultimate possibility (ie some will end up in hell) , our feelings of revulsion notwithstanding. We may not simply ignore such a threat; we may not easily dismiss it, neither for ourselves nor for any of our brothers and sisters in Christ” (Dare We Hope, p. 237).”
He went as far as to claim that it is reasonable to hope that all will be saved and that no one will end up suffering in hell.
Many would prefer to go further, but the Church’s past teaching cannot be ignored.
The Bible clearly show that hell and its punishments exist, as does the infallible teaching of the Church, eg the 4th Lateran Council (1215) declared “Those (the rejected) will receive a perpetual punishment with the devil”.
This view is not acceptable to many now, and recent popes, St JP II. B XVI and Francis, (and the CCC) try to play down the claims about the fires of hell. In Ireland it seems most modern Catholic theologians hold in universalism, that all will be saved.
Hans Urs von Balthasar, B XVI’s favorite theologian wrote:
“If we take our faith seriously and respect the words of Scripture, we must resign ourselves to admitting such an ultimate possibility (ie some will end up in hell) , our feelings of revulsion notwithstanding. We may not simply ignore such a threat; we may not easily dismiss it, neither for ourselves nor for any of our brothers and sisters in Christ” (Dare We Hope, p. 237).”
He went as far as to claim that it is reasonable to hope that all will be saved and that no one will end up suffering in hell.
Many would prefer to go further, but the Church’s past teaching cannot be ignored.
S
SilverShadow22
Guest
If that’s what you want to tell yourself, go ahead.
S
SilverShadow22
Guest
… Are you kidding? It’s not dated, it’s not insulting, it’s literally true, and most importantly IT IS A FICTIONAL EXAMPLE. :banghead:
S
SilverShadow22
Guest
I continue to marvel how people take everything said about a place/state of being WITHOUT FORM OR PHYSICALITY as literal. EVERYTHING you say to physically describe a spirit is by definition a METAPHOR. Our entire language revolves around the physical because that’s what we are. Quibbling over how these terms don’t exactly apply is missing the entire point of the discussion.
S
SilverShadow22
Guest
Your attitude is condescending. Anything “off topic” is a result of metaphor. LM and I are not off topic, we’re making a point you obviously don’t want to hear.
S
SilverShadow22
Guest
You are misunderstanding the point completely. You want to be a little puppet, moved around just right, never allowed to fail, made to walk slowly so that you don’t risk skinning your knee if you happen to trip while running? You want to live life in bubble wrap? You want God to step in with invisible hands and brush every hurtful thing away?
Everyone is STILL missing the point. They want God to save them from, say, a drunk driver. So… They want Him to take away the consequences of the free will of a person to drink, drink too much, get behind the wheel… Or maybe just magically make a law that no car hits another? Why then would anyone care what they do? If there are no consequences for careless responsibility, how do we show our worth by being responsible?
What, indeed, is left for us to do?
Every ‘inexplicable’ tragedy has a chain of cause and effect, even if we don’t see it. I don’t know how many movies, books, shows, etc, use the idea of something very small being crucial to changing everything. The lynchpin, the time point, the moment of divergence. Somehow we accept this in stories but not for real?
If humans aren’t supposed to mess with Time, why do we want God to? Just because He’s smart enough to do it and get away with it?
BUT WAIT A SECOND!
How would we even know if He’s messing with Time? If He’s doing it carefully, we’d never know. How, indeed, can you say that He’s not ALREADY doing everything He can short of moving us like mindless game pieces? How can you say this reality isn’t better than one He already adjusted?
YOU DON’T KNOW and that’s the point. LM’s point about his son wanting what he sees as a good, that is not really good, remains valid. You say, I need help, it is a good. You see nothing else, you consider nothing else, you can’t even see one day into the future, let alone see all of Time at once.
The real question is where does anyone come off saying you have the remotest idea what is ‘better’ for ANYONE? You can only think this if you can’t conscieve of a truly omipotent, omniscient being. In fact, you’re claiming to know more than God and throwing a tantrum because He won’t explain it to you. If that’s how you want to play it, fine, but it won’t get you very far.
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