Does God know whether I will go to heaven or hell before I was born?

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Ok, so this is what I understand so far 🙂 :

Let’s say God has the time machine so He goes to the future to see what I will do and goes 100 years after the year I born to see whether I’m in heaven or hell; that’s how He knows everything in the future.

oldcelt asked why God saw someone will go to Hell yet still create that person.
Let’s say before create this guy, God goes to 100 years later so see whether he in hell or heaven. And let’s say God saw he is in hell. So God goes back and decided not to create him anymore so no one will have to suffer in hell.
But if God looks to the future, see him in hell, decided not to create him anymore, which means he will not be in hell 100 years later. Then the 1st time when God looked into the future He shouldn’t see him at all. ---- This is so time paradox and confusing.
👍

Grace ,grace, and grace, but no forcing. That’s why in History, God will try to prevent this. God trying doesn’t mean he is not Omnipotent, it mean it lets us free, and he wants to need our free choice for Him.
Forget time, when talking about God attributes.
 
Ok, so this is what I understand so far 🙂 :

Let’s say God has the time machine so He goes to the future to see what I will do and goes 100 years after the year I born to see whether I’m in heaven or hell; that’s how He knows everything in the future.

oldcelt asked why God saw someone will go to Hell yet still create that person.
Let’s say before create this guy, God goes to 100 years later so see whether he in hell or heaven. And let’s say God saw he is in hell. So God goes back and decided not to create him anymore so no one will have to suffer in hell.
But if God looks to the future, see him in hell, decided not to create him anymore, which means he will not be in hell 100 years later. Then the 1st time when God looked into the future He shouldn’t see him at all. ---- This is so time paradox and confusing.
As is mentioned here so often, God exists out of time (for the most part I’ll agree). There is no time paradox when you can see all of time in a flash.
 
Sin was not designed by God.
How many covenants do you need to see that God multiplies the possibilities, but mankind would not listen? Now God Himself came to us, in an eternal and supreme covenant.

God is not simply fair and just because he gives to the good and the bad, he gives in overabundance, if you are faithful.

Why do you say if God gives true free will, he should stay out of things? Does a command by God himself bind you in any way? No, you can disobey.
God does not give us free will. We have it through a lack of interference on His part. If He intervenes on the part of one, He has altered the course of the world for all people and required different decisions. So far as God-man covenants, I don’t believe they ever happened.
Sin is God related…we call it crime or nothing at all.

Earth is a wonderful place and provides wonderfully some of the time. For that I thank Him everyday, even though I believe his role in its creation was indirect. But, how about famine and starvation in areas of the world? Are those people all undeserving or evil?
 
God does not give us free will. We have it through a lack of interference on His part. If He intervenes on the part of one, He has altered the course of the world for all people and required different decisions. So far as God-man covenants, I don’t believe they ever happened.
Sin is God related…we call it crime or nothing at all.

Earth is a wonderful place and provides wonderfully some of the time. For that I thank Him everyday, even though I believe his role in its creation was indirect. But, how about famine and starvation in areas of the world? Are those people all undeserving or evil?
Well you don’t believe and I am actually sorry. Now persuade me that i am wrong, I have the Church on my side.

Saying God can’t give us free will since he can intervene is negating his power. Altering the course of the World has no sense since it goes the way He wanted, with all the possibilities we may find and/or do. That is the Foreknowledge of God, and His will contains our free-will, meaning is it good to God to have us free. God wants us to be free, and to choose. Reread Genesis 1and 2 , or stop considering this from a Christian point of view.

And the Paradox (or actually contradiction, impossibility) is God cannot create someone to live his life, then see he fell (went to Hell), and then decide not to create him. You could say wait he could go back. Yes, but he has created that person, past present or future, the person lives, no matter when. So once a person entered creation, she entered History, to go into eternity. So creation comes out of eternity; God intervenes, not by causing our decisions to change, but by inspiring! That’s why we say we have free will. God is not acting by lack. God is acting in all and forever. Do we have faith and do his will by according ours to HIs, then we will be rewarded. There is no salvation without free will.
 
But, how about famine and starvation in areas of the world? Are those people all undeserving or evil?
You do know it is because man is greedy and proud, don’t you? As Christians, we know two things: we have to make the world a better place, and we know that because of us the world won’t ever be perfect.

As for evil or undeserving people, we are not Calvinists, no one is evil per se, no one deserves more than another. In fact, sin has touched everybody of us, and through Christ, not because of us, but because of God’s love, we may deserve.

Luke 13 Jubilee Bible 2000 (JUB)

13 ¶ There were present at the same time some that told him of the Galilaeans whose blood Pilate had mingled with his sacrifices.
2 And Jesus, answering, said unto them, Think ye that these Galilaeans suffered such things because they were greater sinners than all the other Galilaeans?
3 I tell you, No; but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower in Siloam fell and slew them, think ye that they were greater debtors than all the other men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, No; but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
6 ¶ And He spoke this parable: A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came and sought fruit upon it and found none.
7 Then he said unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none; cut it down; why does it cumber the ground?
8 And he, answering, said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also until I shall dig about it and dung it,
9 and if it bears fruit, well; and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
10 ¶ And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
11 And, behold, there was a woman who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years and was bowed together and could in no wise lift herself up.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
13 And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight and glorified God.
14 And the prince of the synagogue answered with indignation because Jesus had healed on the sabbath, and said unto the people, There are six days in which it behooves men to work; in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.
15 The Lord then answered him and said, Thou hypocrite, does not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his *** from the stall and lead it away to drink?
16 And regarding this daughter of Abraham, who, behold, Satan had bound eighteen years, does it not behoove us to release her from this bond on the Sabbath day?
17 And as he said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed, but all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.
18 ¶ Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and unto what shall I compare it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and cast into his garden; and it grew and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the heaven lodged in the branches of it.
20 And again he said, Unto what shall I compare the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened.
22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 ¶ Then someone said unto him, Lord, are there few that are saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the narrow gate; for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able.
25 When once the husband of the house is risen up and shall have shut the door, and ye begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not from where ye are,
26 then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say unto you, I know you not from where ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 In that place shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And others shall come from the east and from the west and from the north and from the south and shall sit at the table in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
31 ¶ The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Go out and depart from here, for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out demons, and I do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
33 Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow and the day following, for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kills the prophets and stones those that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate; and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me until the time comes when ye shall say, Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord.

If we don’t repent, we will die. Does this force us to repent? No. Does this condemn us to Hell? No, if we repent, we won’t die. :amen:
 
Well you don’t believe and I am actually sorry. Now persuade me that i am wrong, I have the Church on my side.

Saying God can’t give us free will since he can intervene is negating his power. Altering the course of the World has no sense since it goes the way He wanted, with all the possibilities we may find and/or do. That is the Foreknowledge of God, and His will contains our free-will, meaning is it good to God to have us free. God wants us to be free, and to choose. Reread Genesis 1and 2 , or stop considering this from a Christian point of view.

And the Paradox (or actually contradiction, impossibility) is God cannot create someone to live his life, then see he fell (went to Hell), and then decide not to create him. You could say wait he could go back. Yes, but he has created that person, past present or future, the person lives, no matter when. So once a person entered creation, she entered History, to go into eternity. So creation comes out of eternity; God intervenes, not by causing our decisions to change, but by inspiring! That’s why we say we have free will. God is not acting by lack. God is acting in all and forever. Do we have faith and do his will by according ours to HIs, then we will be rewarded. There is no salvation without free will.
Having read the bible multiple times, your using specific chapters mean little to me…and you are totally missing the true time element. I’m sorry that you are also so confused on the concept of free will.
I know nothing more than you with certainty. Just pointing out some of the issues and having a Church on your side means nothing to anyone but faithful Catholics. I guess the philosophy part of this forum has been completely abandoned.
 
Repeat the last statement for another lengthy quote from a book that I, and millions of others, do not believe. Sorry, but you may as well quote “Gone with the Wind.”
 
Having read the bible multiple times, your** using specific chapters mean little to me**…and you are totally missing the true time element. I’m sorry that you are also so confused on the concept of free will.
I know nothing more than you with certainty. Just pointing out some of the issues and having a Church on your side means nothing to anyone but faithful Catholics.** I guess the philosophy part of this forum has been completely abandoned**.
I am using specific chapters in accordance to the whole teaching of the Bible according to the Church, that God wants no man to be lost. We can look at the whole Bible if you have time.
We all have biases, and you certainly know that philosophy needs principles, one can’t find them. If you don’t have one, you take a theory. We have God as principle; it is catholic philosophy.
It doesn’t mean that philosophy can be done only so, but you are addressing an issue about religion. Has philosophy been abandoned? You may say so, if for you philosophy is only without God.
I am sorry if saying that i have the Church with me sounded rude or meaningless. I wanted to point out that the Church has discussed the issues with great philosophers and found this way to answer them.
Why should I sound confused when I showed that our decisions and not God’s send us were we will belong in eternity?

And while it is true in a strict sense that I don’t know more than you with certainty, I have faith and hope because of Jesus. In a matter of Faith, this is the true knowledge. Surely you have to be well read, savvy and combine multiple disciplines to be universal (as the word university and the expression universal man is supposed to mean), it is not enough to answer a question of faith.
 
Oh my. I am too tired to count all the contradictions in logic on this thread. Maybe tomorrow.
Perhaps you’ll demonstrate for us how knowledge of something equals causation of something? :confused: I mean, in post #16 you seemed to hint at something but perhaps you can demonstrate this for us beyond just a refraining out of respect for the forum (but then going on to complain about somebody quoting the bible on CA of all places).
 
Indeed God knows and gives life to a person even if He knows that the person will end up in Hell. But He respects our free will, and also He wants us to be social beings, to have faith and love not only for Him but also for one another. He lets us deal not only with our own choices but also with the choices of the others, so we can see what happens when somebody else makes other choices than us.
My :twocents:
 
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=893945
In the above thread, an apologist said that “God has determined such intervention from all eternity, knowing that such persons would pray for it. God does not change His mind; no one controls God.”
So does that mean God already know what decision will I make in each stage of my life and whether I will go to hell or heaven? If yes, then it shouldn’t be my fault I can’t resist that sin. Because before I was born, God already know that at that time, I will not be able to resist that sin. And I can’t change what He has determined.
I have a bit of a struggle with this. I’ve often pointed out that my own father appeared in my room the night he died. He materialised near the door (in ghostly form), moved towards the foot of the bed, we talked and argued, and at the end he gave an almighty scream. I don’t remember dreams, but I still remember much of what we said, how he looked, how he sounded (his voice had all it’s usual qualities), and in particular the terrifying scream at the end.

At one point however, he had a sort of expression of alarm on his face, and cried out, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I was an atheist at the time, but even I replied, “That can’t be right!”

He answered back, “Oh, it’s right, all right! You can see that from here!”

Later however, he admitted, “I was WILLING!” (to act in the cruel, stupid way he did,*** and did so deliberately by his own admission***).

Now if God can see the future, then it is obvious He knows the outcome at the end of our lives. But the choices remain ours.

But to be honest, I don’t like the implications much, even if we’ll find “It’s right, all right! You can see that from here!” Incidentally he was very cruel for a long time, deliberately so, and had a deliberate policy of destroying my confidence, and I was his own son. Talking to my old pastor later he commented, “It’s almost as he thought his mission in life was to wreck yours!”

Now an anecdote to illustrate God’s subtle power … at one point I was driving a cab in Brisbane at night. Brisbane had about a million people I suppose, and considerably more if you include the surrounding areas of Ipswich, Logan, Redland Bay and what was then Pine Rivers, all potentially included in the cab area. That should give you some idea of the odds of going to a particular address.

One night I happened to be driving in the suburb where he died (Nundah), and even in the street where he died. Of course this raised memories of the way he appeared in my room. So I prayed that I might get a “sign” that it really was him, and that the things he said might be true.

I got back this sort of sense that I ought to know better than to ask for a sign, but I persisted anyway.

Now the address where he died was Unit no. X, Street No. Y Rivington Street, Nundah.

I don’t think it was the same shift, but the very next shift, I pulled up on the Queens Street rank facing the Mall. After waiting a while, a bloke came down the rank, swaying a bit (the usual reason for getting a cab), jumped in the back and just said “Nundah!”.

I said, “Whereabouts in Nundah?” He replied, “Just drive! I’ll tell you where to go!”

So off we went, turned here and there, and eventually arrived at number (Y-1) Rivington Street, Nundah. It was a house directly opposite the block of units where my father died.

As far as I was concerned, I got my “sign”. Within a single cab shift, God had arranged for me to pick up a fare whose destination was directly opposite the place where he died.

Even the language used was almost peremptory with a touch of impatience, as though I ought to have known better - “Just drive! I’ll tell you where to go!”

Yet this was despite my free will in driving the cab, the free will of other drivers in their cabs, traffic and traffic lights, other people taking other cabs, radio jobs being allocated in due course, and this bloke choosing to take a cab at a particular time, and choosing my cab out of the other thousand or so cabs on the road at that time, with probably half a million possible other destinations to choose from.

What price free will in God’s hands?
 
Perhaps you’ll demonstrate for us how knowledge of something equals causation of something? :confused: I mean, in post #16 you seemed to hint at something but perhaps you can demonstrate this for us beyond just a refraining out of respect for the forum (but then going on to complain about somebody quoting the bible on CA of all places).
Foreknowledge of a person’s fate coupled with your direct creation of that person despite the foreknowledge is causation. Again, it is that simple. A God that functions in that manner cannot escape responsibility.
 
I have a bit of a struggle with this. I’ve often pointed out that my own father appeared in my room the night he died. He materialised near the door (in ghostly form), moved towards the foot of the bed, we talked and argued, and at the end he gave an almighty scream. I don’t remember dreams, but I still remember much of what we said, how he looked, how he sounded (his voice had all it’s usual qualities), and in particular the terrifying scream at the end.

At one point however, he had a sort of expression of alarm on his face, and cried out, “I always was doomed! I didn’t really have any choice!” I was an atheist at the time, but even I replied, “That can’t be right!”

He answered back, “Oh, it’s right, all right! You can see that from here!”

Later however, he admitted, “I was WILLING!” (to act in the cruel, stupid way he did,*** and did so deliberately by his own admission***).

Now if God can see the future, then it is obvious He knows the outcome at the end of our lives. But the choices remain ours.

But to be honest, I don’t like the implications much, even if we’ll find “It’s right, all right! You can see that from here!” Incidentally he was very cruel for a long time, deliberately so, and had a deliberate policy of destroying my confidence, and I was his own son. Talking to my old pastor later he commented, “It’s almost as he thought his mission in life was to wreck yours!”

Now an anecdote to illustrate God’s subtle power … at one point I was driving a cab in Brisbane at night. Brisbane had about a million people I suppose, and considerably more if you include the surrounding areas of Ipswich, Logan, Redland Bay and what was then Pine Rivers, all potentially included in the cab area. That should give you some idea of the odds of going to a particular address.

One night I happened to be driving in the suburb where he died (Nundah), and even in the street where he died. Of course this raised memories of the way he appeared in my room. So I prayed that I might get a “sign” that it really was him, and that the things he said might be true.

I got back this sort of sense that I ought to know better than to ask for a sign, but I persisted anyway.

Now the address where he died was Unit no. X, Street No. Y Rivington Street, Nundah.

I don’t think it was the same shift, but the very next shift, I pulled up on the Queens Street rank facing the Mall. After waiting a while, a bloke came down the rank, swaying a bit (the usual reason for getting a cab), jumped in the back and just said “Nundah!”.

I said, “Whereabouts in Nundah?” He replied, “Just drive! I’ll tell you where to go!”

So off we went, turned here and there, and eventually arrived at number (Y-1) Rivington Street, Nundah. It was a house directly opposite the block of units where my father died.

As far as I was concerned, I got my “sign”. Within a single cab shift, God had arranged for me to pick up a fare whose destination was directly opposite the place where he died.

Even the language used was almost peremptory with a touch of impatience, as though I ought to have known better - “Just drive! I’ll tell you where to go!”

Yet this was despite my free will in driving the cab, the free will of other drivers in their cabs, traffic and traffic lights, other people taking other cabs, radio jobs being allocated in due course, and this bloke choosing to take a cab at a particular time, and choosing my cab out of the other thousand or so cabs on the road at that time, with probably half a million possible other destinations to choose from.

What price free will in God’s hands?
Indeed.
 
Foreknowledge of a person’s fate coupled with your direct creation of that person despite the foreknowledge is causation. Again, it is that simple. A God that functions in that manner cannot escape responsibility.
If I sire child does that mean that I am the cause of his death? I cause that person to be born, and I know that he will die, but I don’t cause him to die. It’s the same with God. He knows our fate, and he causes us to come into being with free will, but he doesn’t cause us to go to hell.
 
If I sire child does that mean that I am the cause of his death? I cause that person to be born, and I know that he will die, but I don’t cause him to die. It’s the same with God. He knows our fate, and he causes us to come into being with free will, but he doesn’t cause us to go to hell.
One big difference…you are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. The Christian God supposedly is. Why would He create anyone with the full knowledge of their condemnation? A bit too sadistic for me.
 
oldcelt; What price free will in God’s hands? Indeed.
But as a deist, you don’t accept God has anything to do with freewill, and that we are on our own.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
 
One big difference…you are neither omniscient nor omnipotent. The Christian God supposedly is. Why would He create anyone with the full knowledge of their condemnation? A bit too sadistic for me.
Because knowing their fate by their choices, He creates them to live and be able to be saved.
Is it just for you to create someone with redemption at hand, knowing that he would choose against you ? Yes, it is just. You are not anymore a slave of death in Christ, also you cannot be a slave by rejecting your responsabilities of your choices by seeing God as the demiurge. And not by love should you be prevented to live…

Be a slave of love, yes, but by your choice, from charity; being a slave of love give us freedom. And that gives us Heaven also before we are born. Is that just? Well, that’s the same logic.

God creates, sees what the creature will do, and gives to every single human being the possibility of redemption. But God sees the will of the person, and still creates the person out of love to permit the person to be free. The choices of the person will have rejected Christ.

I understand that verbal form is not so much used anymore, but it is quite useful here 🙂
 
But as a deist, you don’t accept God has anything to do with freewill, and that we are on our own.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.
I do…true free will…no plans…no needy deities looking for love. My God is a creator, not an administrator, and He has no need of us. We have been given a wonderful world to hopefully work with well.

What else do we need?
 
SeekerofTruth27;12137271**:
God does have a plan for us
, with the end result being each one of us going to Heaven to be united with Him forever in eternity. This means that there are certain things that God wants us to do. There are also some instances when God will prevent us from doing something, like when He prevented Pharaoh’s men from reaching the other side of the Red Sea.

It is possible that the reason the woman you are speaking of couldn’t get into law school is because God wanted her to work in public relations (PR). I cannot know by reading about it online. For the sake of our discussion, lets assume that it was. If it was God’s will, it may not have been absolutely necessary for her to fail the law test. For example, perhaps there were people who had told her before that she should go into PR but she wouldn’t listen until after she failed the law test. Or, maybe if she had taken time to pray about “should I do this” (discerning) instead of “help me do this” then she could have figured it out ahead of time. In that case, it may not have been necessary for her to become depressed, or go to the retreat.

So much for free will…God has a plan. His will won out. We are puppets under this scenario.
 
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