Does God love the sinner in Quran

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eliasaph99 said:
Anyways, I’ll answer the OP’s question.

No. From what I have seen, the god of the Koran does not love sinners, at least not in the way that Christians would understand that statement.

In fact, in opposition to that idea, the god in the Koran seems to actually enjoy the fact that some people will be sent to hell. He is described as torturing them personally and making sure to renew their skin so that he can torture them again.

Quite a far cry from our belief that God is willing that all be saved.
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Can you please post where you got this info from?
 
Out of all the translations you could have used you pick Craig Winn’s… a man who doesn’t even speak Arabic and only through a brief glancing of his works it can be seen he has no idea what he’s talking about.

Not that this particular verse is translated that badly, only a few things wrong with it. But still you could do so much better sticking to Yusuf Ali, Muhammad Asad etc…
 
Kadaveri said:
Out of all the translations you could have used you pick Craig Winn’s… a man who doesn’t even speak Arabic and only through a brief glancing of his works it can be seen he has no idea what he’s talking about.

Not that this particular verse is translated that badly, only a few things wrong with it. But still you could do so much better sticking to Yusuf Ali, Muhammad Asad etc…
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Then why not offer a better instead of chastising?

Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, AllWise.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56) M. Khan translation

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56) Yusuf Ali translation

As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56) Shakir translation

Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #56) Pickthal translation

Which is best? Does it make a difference though to the thought that allah does take pleasure in the torment of others?
 
Like I said, in that particular verse Winn’s translation wasn’t that bad, but still it shows and evident bias in that out of all possible translations that could have been used, *that *one was used.

But regardless, I’ve yet to see where exactly that verse says ‘God enjoys punishing people’, it just says that he punishes them. Do you not believe God punishes people?
 
I believe Muslims are attempting to worship the one true God (like in Acts, St. Paul comes across the pagans worshipping one God, and he says they are worshipping the true God without knowing it.) Of course, the problem is their ideas about God come from the gravely erroneous delusions of an antichrist.
 
Point taken. It does not say enjoy.

There are many verses however that say allah leads many astray, seemingly on a whim, and according to some hadith he does so, so that hell will be filled with slaves. I’m pretty sure Muhammed mentioned after his night journey that he saw hell filled mostly with women to justify his “women are deficient in religion” claim.

I’ve read the Koran a number of times, and a few histories on Mohammad to put the revelations into context. Since we are all sinners, it is not a very promising book with respect to the OP.
 
This is application of the Quranic precepts concerning the treatment of sinners in the Islamic Republic of Iran. I believe the interpretation is that Allah loves the man who kills sinners.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6557679.stm

Group cleared over Iran murders
Iran’s Supreme Court has acquitted a group of men charged over a series of gruesome killings in 2002, according to lawyers for the victims’ families.
…]
The accused, who were all members of an Islamic paramilitary force, told the court their understanding of the teachings of one Islamic cleric **allowed them to kill immoral people if they had ignored two warnings to stop their bad behaviour. **
…]
Now the Supreme Court is reported to have **acquitted all the killers of the charge of murder on the grounds that their victims were all morally corrupt. **

Obviously the Supreme Court of the ISLAMIC Republic of Iran, agreed with the cleric that it is permissable in Islam for sinners to be killed. Note that the victims were never accused, charged, tried or convicted of any wrongdoing. It was only in the opinion of these ‘morally upright’ men that these people were immoral and deserved death.
 
Genesis315 said:
I believe Muslims are attempting to worship the one true God (like in Acts, St. Paul comes across the pagans worshipping one God, and he says they are worshipping the true God without knowing it.) Of course, the problem is their ideas about God come from the gravely erroneous delusions of an antichrist.
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My opinion is that in spite of Muhammeds revelations, they do as well except that the god Muhammed “speaks for” is not the same god as they pray to.

Meaning, I believe some spirit visited Mohammad in that cave the first time. I personally give Muhammed the benefit of the doubt that initially he was sincerly seeking the one true God in the midst of his pagan environment. That spirit never identified himself, after a while Mohammad assumed it was Gabriel. Since I do not think the Qur’an is either the words of God or inspired by God, the words of the Quran are from something else- a demon imo, the same that tempted Christ in the desert during His 40 days of fasting.

That spirit, thus Muhammed, appropriates and distorts all that came before it (Torah/Gospels) to give it some appearant validity to include past prophets and Jesus. After a while it seems Muhammed made up most of the revelations for personal reasons. The many verses describing particular torments are directed at specific individuals or groups he was fighting with, and now get taken as some eternal word for all sinners, which is why it’s not a very comforting book.

I think the Arabs in the 7th century were misled by a charasmatic individual much like modern day Jim Jones, David Koresh types that was unabated due to the lax character of the Arabian people of the day. Lax in the sense that they held honor and chivalry in esteem, but lax in a religious sense. Other than the merchants who controlled Mecca and the pre-Islamic Kaaba for commercial reasons, most of the population held clan/family loyalty higher than any pagan god, though it was strong to a degree. Muhammed shattered that clan alliegance making the allure of monotheism, a far superior method of belief, attractive and thus successful. Untill Muhammeds death, then there was something called the great Apostasy which was brutally put down.

Though the god Muhammed speaks of is not the God I know and believe in, I do believe Muslims in reality are praying to the same God. They just do so in a misdirected manner becasue they think Muhammed is a prophet of God- he is not.

The god Muhammed speaks for and about does not love the sinner, in fact it is my contention that the spirit he is speaking for, a spirit that tricked Muhammed initially, but that Muhammed eventually embraced wholeheartedly is only trying to gather more to himself. What he could not accomplish 600 years before wth Jesus, he succeeded with Muhammed.

I mean no disrespect to Muslims, they are human beings, created just as I, but Islam disrespects Christianity by denying the basic tenets of the truth of Christ, much like I think Satan would do if he could. I think he did. He acknowledges just enough to hold a ring of Truth, but leaves out just what is needed to create such dissention as we see today, and as can be understood by reading the history of Islam.
 
Kadaveri said:
Like I said, in that particular verse Winn’s translation wasn’t that bad, but still it shows and evident bias in that out of all possible translations that could have been used, *that *one was used.

But regardless, I’ve yet to see where exactly that verse says ‘God enjoys punishing people’, it just says that he punishes them. Do you not believe God punishes people?
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I didn’t say that it states that God enjoys it. If you reread my post, I said that it seems that the god of the Quran enjoys torturing people.

The numerous vivid images of torture described in unnecessarily graphic detail lend weight to this idea. They are like the ruminations of a sadist taking pleasure in pondering the fate of the next victim.

To support the idea directly from the Quran, consider this quote of 74:31. To make Kadaveri happy, I have included five translations:
AA We have not appointed any one but angels as keepers of Hell, and their number that We have fixed is to make it a means of contention for disbelievers, so that those who were given the Book may be certain, and the faith of the believers may have greater increase, and the people of the Book and believers may not be deceived, and the sceptics and infidels may say: “What does God mean by this parable?” That is how God leads whosoever He will astray, and guides whosoever He will. None knows the armies of your Lord save Him self. This is no more than reminder for mankind.

NQ And We have set none but angels as guardians of the Fire, and We have fixed their number (19) only as a trial for the disbelievers, in order that the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) may arrive at a certainty [that this Qur’ân is the truth as it agrees with their Books i.e. their number (19) is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and the believers may increase in Faith (as this Qur’ân is the truth) and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Scripture and the believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) and the disbelievers may say: “What Allâh intends by this (curious) example ?” Thus Allâh leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.

PK We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.

SH And We have not made the wardens of the fire others than angels, and We have not made their number but as a trial for those who disbelieve, that those who have been given the book may be certain and those who believe may increase in faith, and those who have been given the book and the believers may not doubt, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the unbelievers may say: What does Allah mean by this parable? Thus does Allah make err whom He pleases, and He guides whom He pleases, and none knows the hosts of your Lord but He Himself; and this is naught but a reminder to the mortals.

YU And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number only as a trial for Unbelievers,- in order that the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, “What symbol doth Allah intend by this?” Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth: and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.

(cont.)
 
(cont.)

Note that in all but Yusuf (denoted YU) Allah leads people astray. When reading the Bible, I frequently survey translations if I am looking for the deep meaning of a verse. Applying that technique here, I cannot but say that Yusuf seems to have translated in order to soften the sound and that the true meaning lies in the consensus of the other 4 translations.

In numerous other verses, like the one I quoted in my earlier post, we are told what happens to those who are lead astray. Some of the punishments include eating thorns, drinking boiling water, and having your skin perpetually roasted off and replaced.

Allah has made this happen to these people. They have no free will and have been lead to hell by the god who created them. The individuals spoken of here have not experienced the potential mercy spoken of elsewhere because god himself has led them astray and caused them to err. They never had a chance.

Because of the inevitability of their fate, I think it fair to infer that Allah takes pleasure at the pains of those in hell. Why else would he give them no option but to be there? Why else would he lie to them and lead them astray?

So to the OP. No, Allah does not love sinners. But he loves to roast them in hell and make them drink boiling water.
 
You could translate it as ‘leave’ or ‘lead’ really, the word can mean either. But this happening is a punishment for disbelief (hence all the verse talking about that before it), God doesn’t do this to people just to have fun, that’s not what the Qur’an says at all.
 
Kadaveri said:
You could translate it as ‘leave’ or ‘lead’ really, the word can mean either. But this happening is a punishment for disbelief (hence all the verse talking about that before it), God doesn’t do this to people just to have fun, that’s not what the Qur’an says at all.
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That’s not what I see when I read it.
 
Then you’re going against a long history of classical interpretation of the Qur’an.
 
Kadaveri said:
You could translate it as ‘leave’ or ‘lead’ really, the word can mean either. But this happening is a punishment for disbelief (hence all the verse talking about that before it), God doesn’t do this to people just to have fun, that’s not what the Qur’an says at all.
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I know that many muslims claim that a major theme of Islam and a major attribute of Allah’s is mercy.

Please tell me how is that merciful?

A person doesn’t believe Muhammad, so god himself leads the person astray for the rest of his life, thereby causing that person to go to hell. What chance does the person have? Where is the mercy? If god is lying to you, how would you detect it?
 
Kadaveri said:
Rubbish. There is no racial hierarchy in Islam, in Muhammad’s last sermon (so the excuse ‘oh that’s probably been abrogated…’ isn’t going to work) he said no Arab is superior to a non-Arab nor is any non-Arab superior to any Arab. And no white person is superior to a black person nor is any black person superior to a white person.
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well you must be ignorant of the reality of the Muslim community then
Mohammed made some nice-sounding sermons, but it is a weak argument to say that therefore the reality conforms to this sermon or that. Muslims claim Islam is a religion of peace but still Muslims commit suicide bombings
Mohammed’s “last sermon” is in all likelihood a work of fiction anyway, so there is no need to claim any abrogation
 
Do you even know what ‘taqqiya’ is?
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:rolleyes: unfortunately for those Muslims who employ it - YES we do:thumbsup:
are you going for a “kufrs don’t know any Arabic” argument?
 
I agree Verisimilitude - no matter how righteous and sincere Muslims are, they have been misled. Their righteous is despite Islam, rather than because of it. I was reading a convincing account the other day from a secular Muslim doctor that Mohammed had temporal lobe epilepsy. There are various recorded episodes which provide evidence for this hypothesis.It is known Mohammed had hallucinations for example.
This is why we should feel sorry for the majority of Muslims.
 
jack_hawkins said:
well you must be ignorant of the reality of the Muslim community then
Mohammed made some nice-sounding sermons, but it is a weak argument to say that therefore the reality conforms to this sermon or that. Muslims claim Islam is a religion of peace but still Muslims commit suicide bombings
Mohammed’s “last sermon” is in all likelihood a work of fiction anyway, so there is no need to claim any abrogation
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Well being a member of the Muslim community I’d say I know it slightly better than you do. Look, that’s terrible logic and you know it, you might as well say abortion is a part of Christianity if you’re going to act like that. Christians do it! Who cares what their religion says!

And what evidence at all do you have that Muhammad’s last sermon is a work of fiction? Just you saying so doesn’t make it true. You do know that there are over ***120,000 ***different narrators of this sermon in Hadith collections who all quote it almost identically word-for-word. You really think that they all just made it up? And miraculously they all gave the same words, since the narrations were spread all across the Muslim world so you’d be hard pressed to explain how they could have all conspired with each other.

You realise that if you’re going to dismiss this as ‘fiction’ then there really isn’t *anything *in the life of Muhammad (saaw) that you could ever consider genuine? Without being a hypocrite that is.

Or you could just accept that there isn’t a racial hierarchy in Islam, and not just make up wild excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn’t agree with your views.
 
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