Does God love the sinner in Quran

[jack_hawkins]

Well being a member of the Muslim community I’d say I know it slightly better than you do

well there’s several problems with that

1. you may be dishonest about the Muslim community or naive
2. proof by example is not a logical argument
   since Muslims have admitted to me there is gradation, I am inclined to believe them and not you since why would they admit to something unsavoury if it were not true? you on the other hand would have every motive to deny that unsavoury fact
   my argument wasn’t terrible logic at all - you made false analogies to bolster your argument tho!
   what proof do you that Mohammed’s last sermon wasn’t a work of fiction? agreement doesn’t equal truth - after all the makes of false alibis often agree too perfectly. perfect agreement points to one source, it doesn’t suggest what that source is does it?
   I have certainly read material that suggests that this last sermon is fake
   and I have seen plenty of evidence there is a racial hierarchy in Islam eg recent trial transcripts from the trials of the “alleged” 21/7 bombers
   I have had Muslim posters tell me blondes are the farthest away from good/Islam - any comment on that? apart from a tu quoque?

 

[Kadaveri]

Yeah, and I had ‘some Christians’ tell me people with green eyes are evil and can’t be Christians, therefore it must be true. And you’re most likely just ignorant of the Christian community or lying so I’m not going to listen to anything you say.

Now how ridiculous does that sound? Some Muslims told you blondes are the furthest away from Islam? That doesn’t even make sense. Something you heard that an attempted suicide bomber said is how you determined Islamic doctrine? Even if it contradicts the Qur’an and words of Muhammad (saaw)? And you *don’t realise how this is incredibly flawed… how are they in any way *an authority? Can I quote David Koresh as the authorative voice of Christian doctrine, giving it higher priority than the Bible?

I really can’t believe I’m saying some of this…

And genetically speaking Arabs *are *white caucasians anyway.

 

[jack_hawkins]

oh dear you’ve decided to be puerile rather than address the issues
never mind
it shows that you want to deny what your fellow Muslims say, which isn’t surprising
I could find the website for you, but you would just tu quoque on me
PS did I ever misuse the term “Caucasian” or even use the term “white Caucasian” (whatever that is meant to mean)? NO
I am well aware of what Caucasian means, even if the term is massively misused
PPS “genetically speaking” - is there any other way to describe race??? a nice tautology tho

 

[Kadaveri]

Yes there is another (erroneous) way commonly used to describe race, skin colour; which is why many people (especially in the USA I’ve noticed) think Hispanics, Jews, Arabs and the like are somehow different races to Europeans just because they have a darker skin-tone. And there was earlier where you said in the Islamic racial pecking order (as if such a thing exists) Arabs are at the top, whites are at the bottom.

But go on then, show me this site where a Muslim says whites are at the bottom of the Islamic racial pecking order, or that blondes are the furthest away from Islam. And don’t go give a Nation of Islam site, since you’re intelligent enough to know that they’re not Muslims anymore than Scientologists are Christians.

 

[Reuben_J]

Well being a member of the Muslim community I’d say I know it slightly better than you do. Look, that’s terrible logic and you know it, you might as well say abortion is a part of Christianity if you’re going to act like that. Christians do it! Who cares what their religion says!

And what evidence at all do you have that Muhammad’s last sermon is a work of fiction? Just you saying so doesn’t make it true. **You do know that there are over ***120,000 *****different narrators of this sermon in Hadith collections who all quote it almost identically word-for-word. You really think that they all just made it up? And miraculously they all gave the same words, since the narrations were spread all across the Muslim world so you’d be hard pressed to explain how they could have all conspired with each other.

You realise that if you’re going to dismiss this as ‘fiction’ then there really isn’t *anything *in the life of Muhammad (saaw) that you could ever consider genuine? Without being a hypocrite that is.

Or you could just accept that there isn’t a racial hierarchy in Islam, and not just make up wild excuses to dismiss any evidence that doesn’t agree with your views.

Amazing! Did you say 120,000 narrators?

Did 120,000 people heard the sermon?

If not, how could they be narrators, unless of course, 120,000 repeated the one fiction!

This is exactly proof that this sermon is surely questionable.

 

[Kadaveri]

Being a narrator of a Hadith doesn’t mean you personally witnessed the Prophet saying/doing such and such, it just means that you were in the isnad (chain of narrators).

 

[eliasaph99]

Being a narrator of a Hadith doesn’t mean you personally witnessed the Prophet saying/doing such and such, it just means that you were in the isnad (chain of narrators).

Kadaveri,

Are you going to address my question, or are you going to avoid it?

For your benefit, here it is again:

Kadaveri;2112604:

You could translate it as ‘leave’ or ‘lead’ really, the word can mean either. But this happening is a punishment for disbelief (hence all the verse talking about that before it), God doesn’t do this to people just to have fun, that’s not what the Qur’an says at all.
I know that many muslims claim that a major theme of Islam and a major attribute of Allah’s is mercy.

Please tell me how is that merciful?

A person doesn’t believe Muhammad, so god himself leads the person astray for the rest of his life, thereby causing that person to go to hell. What chance does the person have? Where is the mercy? If god is lying to you, how would you detect it?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Yes there is another (erroneous) way commonly used to describe race, skin colour; which is why many people (especially in the USA I’ve noticed) think Hispanics, Jews, Arabs and the like are somehow different races to Europeans just because they have a darker skin-tone. And there was earlier where you said in the Islamic racial pecking order (as if such a thing exists) Arabs are at the top, whites are at the bottom

so a white person who is anti-Arab isn’t racist?
of course they are - what a specious argument
Anti-Semitism isn’t racism? of course it is!
you’ll have to do better
the hierarchy is based on race, which can mean several things rather than the anthropological definition (which isn’t cut and dried anyway)
since intra-racial variation is greater than interracial, then any genetic criteria are problematic
you’re talking to the wrong person if you want to obfuscate about genetics
PS the comment was made on jihadwatch by a Muslim, I can’t be bothered finding it given your predictable reaction anyway

I think every Muslim I have ever communicated with has been anti-Semitic, which must have slipped your memory! look at the hate in the Koran against the Jews!

 

[jack_hawkins]

some links with comments on the racism/Arab supremacism inherent to Islam:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/009139.php
hecubus.wordpress.com/2007/03/01/the-infidel-and-knowledge-of-islam/
islamreview.com/cgi-bin/guestbook/guestbook.cgi?start_number=90- "Speaking of Arab’s racism I can tell you a few things from personal observation and experience working here in the Gulf States. I’ve worked as a consultant in the region, on and off, for over 12 years now. I have a number of close Arab friends who do not consider me as an outsider. Surprisingly many an Arab shows respect to followers of Al Masih!

They talk freely in front of me about outsiders, non-Arab Muslims, kafirs as well as about other Arabs from different countries.

Basically Arabs to this very day are still very tribal in their thinking about outsiders. Outsiders are invariably viewed with suspicion. They do not even allow their women to be married to Arabs of other countries if they can help it. They ‘haqul-yakin’ – truly believe that only Arabs can be good Muslims. Other Muslims whether they are Asians, Kurdish, Turkish and especially Caucasians are to them only wannabe Muslims, not the genuine articles.

Arab Muslims make fun of Muslims from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia and Indonesia, etc. who in their opinion are trying to be Arabs. They complain bitterly about the inability of these non-Arab Muslims in reciting the prayers properly, they ‘mangle the beautiful Arab words’! Begrudgingly many Gulf Arabs acknowledge that their Arabic is not as pure as that of the Yemenis’.

Another form of racism is seen in the fact that the majority of Gulf Arabs are convinced that the Indonesian pilgrims, numbering more than 250,000 annually, who spend 30 days during the hajj pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina are financed by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The reason for this belief is two fold: the Indonesians are too poor to pay their own way and the KSA is magnanimous because Indonesia is the country with the largest Muslim population (more than 200 million). The fact of course is quite different; the poor Indonesian pilgrims contribute millions of dollars annually to the coffers of the KSA.

PAUL" post by Paul Rantau
faithfreedom.org/oped/Yongo60116p3.htm