Does God violate our free will by making us die

  • Thread starter Thread starter oliver109
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
O

oliver109

Guest
Death for the majority of us is not a choice, we are I think effectively made to die, effectively forced to have our soul removed from our bodies. I was having this conversation with my father the other day about how if someone dies after committing mortal sin and they go to hell they essentially did not choose to die in mortal sin as in reality they did not choose to die at all! my father was also puzzled and said that there are some things that are beyond human understanding, what do you say?
 
Nature happens, not everything is in our control. Still, what choices we do make are our own.
 
Lots of things happen to us in our lives which are beyond our control. None of these violate the concept of free will. God will give all of us a chance to repent. It is up to us to take advantage of that chance. I have posted this quote before, but I will again, I think it captures the issue of heaven and hell quite well and very succinctly. It comes from Fr Knox’s “The Believe of Catholics”:
I have mentioned the doctrine of actual grace; it would be beyond the scope
of my present undertaking to expound the Catholic system, or rather
systems, upon the point. It is enough to recall here that there are two
notice-boards (as it were) to guide us, two general principles which secure
us from misconceptions. On the one side, it is universally admitted,
against the Pelagians, that nobody ever goes to heaven except through the
free grace of perseverance. On the other side it is universally admitted,
against the Calvinists, that nobody ever goes to hell except through his
own fault.
Click to expand...
 
oliver109 said:
some things that are beyond human understanding
Click to expand...
I’m with your dad on this.

I do not think that God makes us die. We have more to do with our own mortality than God does. We also do not know if anyone actually goes to Hell because God is love and mercy.
 
I agree that our sins are indeed our own fault, our own choosing, what I do say however is that we do not choose to die in a state of mortal sin unless we are like one of those mass murderers that goes on a killing spree and then shoot ourselves dead.
 
Free will does not mean we control everything that happens to us. We can respond according to our own discretion to the things that happen to us, but we can’t bend and morph all of time and space to conform to our desires.
oliver109 said:
they go to hell they essentially did not choose to die in mortal sin as in reality they did not choose to die at all
Click to expand...
They did, however, choose to commit a grave sin, knowing the potential consequence.

Furthermore, those who face an untimely death but had genuine remorse, desire to reunite with God, and intention to go to Confession when able still receive the graces of the sacrament. So if the person did indeed go to hell, then they were not, of their free will, seeking out the sacrament at the time of their death.
 
Last edited:
oliver109 said:
I agree that our sins are indeed our own fault, our own choosing, what I do say however is that we do not choose to die in a state of mortal sin unless we are like one of those mass murderers that goes on a killing spree and then shoot ourselves dead.
Click to expand...
We choose when to be unrepentant.
 
We do choose if we want to be unrepentant but not to die being unrepentant.
 
Is it a violation of free will to grow old? To be born in a certain age? In a certain location? With certain physical and mental strengths and weaknesses? To undergo accidents and sickness and injury? To be harmed by others? To have any limitations on our freedom of action? Death is just another limitation on our freedom of action. To have no limits on our freedom of action would require a form of personal omnipotence.
 
In effect an accident is a violation of free will as what you are intending to do is stopped by the accident for instance someone could plan to go to church but they are prevented from doing so because they are hit by a car. Death could be completely avoidable but God has decided for us that we die, not us who decide but God.
 
Last edited:
No more than getting wrinkles, grey hair, a cold or cancer violates our free will.

Free will covers our actions and our decisions.
 
oliver109 said:
I agree that our sins are indeed our own fault, our own choosing, what I do say however is that we do not choose to die in a state of mortal sin unless we are like one of those mass murderers that goes on a killing spree and then shoot ourselves dead.
Click to expand...
We choose to commit a mortal sin and if we die unrepentant that is also our choice.
 
Every time you commit a mortal sin you are declaring, “I desire to dwell eternally in this ‘Pleasure of the Missing of the Mark of Righteousness’ rather than with you God.” And then the pleasure is over and you are not eternally in the pleasure you sought, and you are in despair and seeking some other thing you could dwell in eternally rather than with God.
 
oliver109 said:
In effect an accident is a violation of free will as what you are intending to do is stopped by the accident for instance someone could plan to go to church but they are prevented from doing so because they are hit by a car. Death could be completely avoidable but God has decided for us that we die, not us who decide but God.
Click to expand...
As I said, you are equating free will to omnipotence. Without meaning to, I’m sure, you are echoing the temptation of the serpent in the garden - you can be like God.

I have a saying: God does not play “Gotcha!” with our salvation. God desires that all be saved. We must count on this fact, and that he knows our hearts completely, and not worry about the things that are beyond our control. (worrying about the things that are in our control is more than enough to keep us busy!)
 
No I think when I have committed mortal sin it has been maybe more about having a lack of trust in God and it simply being so easy to sin mortally. why did God make keeping his commandments so hard, so tedious?
 
It is our choice to commit the sin but it is not our choice to die after commiting it.
 
oliver109 said:
simply being so easy to sin mortally. why did God make keeping his commandments so hard, so tedious?
Click to expand...
You agree with me, you are saying, “Going after this pleasure is so easy; it is so much tedious work to be with God, so I prefer to spend eternity in the easy to attain pleasure I am seeking rather than doing the tedious work. If God had put ease and pleasure into keeping his commandments, I am sure I would do them. It is God’s fault, not mine.”
But then the pleasure ends because the pleasure of the sin lied to you - it did not last forever, you woke up and saw the failure. Adam and Eve “woke up” and realized they were naked rather than living joyously eternally thinking they were like God, knowing good and evil.

To end sin you simply do not do the “flesh’s forethought of planning how to satisfy your lusts” (Rom. 13), don’t entertain imaginings of how to get to the forbidden fruit. Instead, tell God you are hungry and then wait in hunger until he feeds you. Instead of imagining and planning how to get food by turning stones to bread in the desert, Jesus waited for life from his Father (and angels did arrive to help him).
oliver109 said:
It is our choice to commit the sin but it is not our choice to die after commiting it.
Click to expand...
Actually, we want Time to Stop for Eternity when we sin, so that we can spend eternity in the pleasure of the sin.
Then we come to wake up from the deception, still alive in Time, but no more eternal pleasure from the sin. And there is emptiness: do we turn and return to God in contrition, or remain angry at God for our guilt - “I did it, but God, it is your fault!!!”
 
I think when one sins they are not wishing the moment lasted for eternity they are essentially telling God that they lack faith in his promises and that they would rather go their own way, I think when the majority of us sin we are not doing it with the intention of disobeying God forever but rather disobeying God at that moment. When I go to Confession and confess my sins I do so with the hope that I wont commit them again but I never wish to die after commiting a serious sin, that would just be not in my plans so to speak, God deciding that one dies after sinning is effectively God giving up on a sinner and not wanting to give them another chance.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top