Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[pambarnes1516]

You are failing to use your reason. Question-- do you think that our all powerful, all knowing, all loving God accidentally showed up in the middle of human history to establish His Church thereby denying the possibility of election to at least half the human race or do you think it is an accident that God places a soul in a part of the world where they have no exposure to the Divine truths? Do you think that God “desired” for them to be Catholic and then “willed” or “forced” them to be otherwise by limiting the possibility for them to be Catholic? No, that would be cruel and God doesn’t do absolutely anything on accident. God places souls where He places them and saves them or punishes them according to the Divine scrutiny. It is obvious that God does not nessacarily “desire” for everyone to be saved through the Catholic Church because many are saved through other avenues and that glorifies God’s great mercy. You are playing a serious game of philosophy and your questions have already been answered by St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas-among others. You need to be careful what you imply about our Holy God. He is goodness itself and does not wish ill on anyone and desires for everyone to be with Him but which gifts He chooses to give to his creatures (the sacrements are the best gifts hence the reason I said that Catholics have the greatest responsibility) is up to Him and God doesn’t always offer the sacramental gifts to all His creatures. Even Christ spoke about that. But like I said before, we should still try to share out gifts with everyone by evangelizing --Christ offers Himself to us most often through eachother. We are His body.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Very nicely put, I would say. I only hope others will listen and acknowledge responses as much as they would speak. However, it is not so clear to me that the title “bishop” was in use in St. Pauls time, perhaps not until St. Ignatius. Still, as the adage goes, a rose by any other name is just as sweet.

The English word ‘bishop’ was indeed not used; however, ‘bishop’ is derived from ‘espiskopos’ in Greek, which is the word used in Scripture and by Ignatius! Episcopus is the Latin word used, I believe. The office that a bishop holds is referred to as the ‘episcopal see’. I think this is accurate, anyway

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
Poco,
I’ve been pondering this for a while. The Protestant Churches share much of the truth about salvation with the Catholic Church, some more, some less, depending on how much of the original Catholic faith they happen to have held on to.

Well, I certainly am not in a position to judge any individual but the only normative way that a person enters the state of grace is through trinitarian baptism. many Protestants can get this so they can indeed enter the state of grace. The problem is staying in the state of grace, which is required to enter heaven. To do so, you must avoid mortal sin or else be reconciled sacramentally. When a Catholic misses mass (except for valid reasons), they enter into mortal sin and must go to confession to reenter the state of grace. So if a person leaves the Catholic church and never returns to confession, their soul is indeed in jeopardy. Now could they reconcile to God in some special way at the moment of death? maybe. we have no way of knowing. But it is best not to bank on an exception. If a Catholic truly loves God, he would not abandon His church.

 

[paul_c]

You are failing to use your reason. Question-- do you think that our all powerful, all knowing, all loving God accidentally showed up in the middle of human history to establish His Church thereby denying the possibility of election to at least half the human race or do you think it is an accident that God places a soul in a part of the world where they have no exposure to the Divine truths?

I don’t think the birth of Jesus Christ was in any way an accident. And the church teaches that when Jesus was crucified, he descended to the dead to preach to those moral souls that died prior to His paschal sacrifice, thus allowing them to be saved. The church also teaches that if someone leads a moral life but never had the opportunity to be baptized, that they too can be saved.

Do you think that God “desired” for them to be Catholic and then “willed” or “forced” them to be otherwise by limiting the possibility for them to be Catholic? No, that would be cruel and God doesn’t do absolutely anything on accident. God places souls where He places them and saves them or punishes them according to the Divine scrutiny. It is obvious that God does not nessacarily “desire” for everyone to be saved through the Catholic Church because many are saved through other avenues and that glorifies God’s great mercy.

Jesus commissioned the Apostles to go out and baptize all the nations into the church (matthew 28: 18-20). Do you think that was by accident? And how do you know that many are saved through other avenues. Do you have any proof of this?

You are playing a serious game of philosophy and your questions have already been answered by St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas-among others. You need to be careful what you imply about our Holy God. He is goodness itself and does not wish ill on anyone and desires for everyone to be with Him but which gifts He chooses to give to his creatures (the sacrements are the best gifts hence the reason I said that Catholics have the greatest responsibility) is up to Him and God doesn’t always offer the sacramental gifts to all His creatures. Even Christ spoke about that. But like I said before, we should still try to share out gifts with everyone by evangelizing --Christ offers Himself to us most often through eachother. We are His body.

You too should be careful. The Church says that all who are saved are saved through the church in one way or another. You should not deny this reality because it can lead people to doubt the church to their own peril

 

[Brendan_64]

Well, I certainly am not in a position to judge any individual but the only normative way that a person enters the state of grace is through trinitarian baptism. many Protestants can get this so they can indeed enter the state of grace. The problem is staying in the state of grace, which is required to enter heaven. To do so, you must avoid mortal sin or else be reconciled sacramentally.

You are in effect saying that any Protestant who commits one mortal sin in his life is doomed to hell (since he can’t avail himself of the Sacrament of Confession). You are also implying that all people who have not been baptised are barred from entry to Heaven (even if they never commit a mortal sin). You are making some pretty severe assumptions about the who God will forgive, and how he will forgive them. Your views are also out of line with the current position of the Catholic Church.

 

[pambarnes1516]

Yes I do have proof that many non-Catholics are saved. It’s called the Baptism of desire. It’s not only in the catachism (see earlier posts-Im not going to requote what someone else already quoted) and God explained this very phenomenon to St. Catherine of Sienna in The Dialogue (she’s a Doctor of the Church) as well as many others. Many non-baptized children die and adults who are ignorant of Christ and His Church but who are nonetheless of good will and love God and act according to what they reason to be good are rewarded eternal life because of Christ’s passion. You know what I find disturbing is all the “one-upping” going on. I know Christ does not like arrogance. Pride is the Parent sin that gives birth to all other sins and although it is for sure a superior blessing to be “elected” a Catholic, it is in no way an excuse to practice meanness towards other people. It is good to engage in pious educational dialogue but bickering or arguing or using demeaning/offensive speech is displeasing to God and should be avoided at all costs. I understand that people want answers but Catholics especially have to be careful as to not mislead the sheep otherwise Christ will deem them a false prophet. In other words, we have to be super careful about doctrinal correctness. Before answering questions and giving opinions/responses we should be sure we are being prudent, doing research, not judging and not using demeaning/offensive speech.

being prudent an as tactful as possible.

 

[paul_c]

You are in effect saying that any Protestant who commits one mortal sin in his life is doomed to hell (since he can’t avail himself of the Sacrament of Confession).

I ask you Brendan, what is the definition of a mortal sin? Does it or does it not, remove us from the state of grace? And are we required to be in the state of grace to be saved? I think the answer is yes. So how is a person to regain grace if not by sacramental confession? Now I grant you that God is not bound by his sacraments so there could be exceptions. Nevertheless, the Chruch calls to us to evangelize for a reason. Does anyone benefit by us telling them that sacramental confession is not necessary for the forgiveness of mortal sin, when in fact the church teaches that it is,? Isn’t it in fact a spiritual work of mercy to instruct those that don’t know this. A protestant is not condemned to hell if he commits a mortal sin - he has the chance until death to reconcile to God. The only way we know to do this is sacramental confession or perfect contrition on his deathbed. And by the way, I noted this in the part of the quote you chose to delete.

You are also implying that all people who have not been baptised are barred from entry to Heaven (even if they never commit a mortal sin).

never said this. i recognize the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood. In fact, I referenced them in the post between this one and the one you commented on.

You are making some pretty severe assumptions about the who God will forgive, and how he will forgive them. Your views are also out of line with the current position of the Catholic Church.

I’m not making any assumptions on who God will forgive, as I stated in my first paragraph. As for being out of line with the current position of the church, how so. Show me my error. This is what the catechism says:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

 

[pambarnes1516]

Ok I think whats happening is confusion. A non-Catholic who, through no fault of their own is invincibly ignorant (has no knowledge of Christ or His Church) can be saved (Paul see your own quote). Here’s our Merciful God’s way-thru Baptism of desire. What that LITERALLY means is “baptism or PURIFICATION” by “desire or LOVE” of God. Ok, I’m gonna go slow now. That means that if a Protestant or Jew or Muslim or Pagan ‘desires/loves’ God, God will baptise/purify/cleanse that non-Catholic in the fire of the Holy Spirit as He does Catholics (and some Protestants) and if that protestant/Jew/Muslim/pagan commits a mortal sin and is in his/her heart truly sorry, God will cleanse/purify/baptize them again and will do thus multiple times throughout the person’s life as He does for us through the sacrament of reconciliation (and Holy Communion) bc He knows that non-catholic of goodwill has no access to Himself through His Church an if they did have this access they would utilize the proper sacrements. Although we do profess ONE baptism for the forgiveness if sins, we profess multiple cleansings or “purifications” through the sacraments. In the case of “baptism of desire” (which is available even to Catholics who, thru no fault of their own, lose access to sacraments) baptism is being used in it’s literal sense-as a cleansing -not it’s sacramental sense -one time thing. This is where the gift of understanding really makes it’s mark -in
the language or “diction” of the Church and her doctrines. As smart as we are, we have to
admit that canon lawyers don’t go to college senselessly!

 

[pambarnes1516]

Like I said, God really explains this well Himself to St. Catherine. And it is not presumptuous to say that God will forgive anyone who is sorry-literally anyone! God would forgive the devil if the devil were ever sorry but that won’t happen bc of lack of grace. The devil is outside of time so he us unchangeable unlike us who were created and redeemed in time according to God’s great mercy an justice. As you know, God’s grace is necessary for repentance so does God give graces to non-Catholics to be sorry? Yes-God grants immense graces even to the most hardened sinners because God’s mercy is infinite and fathomless and God is totally in love with each and every one of us. It is so hurtful to His most Sacred heart to hear His children question His mercifulness. Although Christ is the final mercy only love and repentance is utterly necessary for salvation and as the catechism states, this can sometimes occur outside if the Church. Salvation literally means “forgiveness of sins” -that is why the catechism does not omit non-catholics from the fold of God’s merciful heart. Although it is not possible to willfuly deny or reject the offer of Christ through the Church and still receive those graces necessary for salvation/forgiveness of sins, it is possible to receive those graces if the denial/rejection is out of honest ignorance or some innocent circumstance (like brain washing or something which is often the case with people who were raised in other faiths who do not have the power to reason why their own religion is not correct). Universalism is heresy of course but misunderstanding the Mercy of Gid can be just as spiritually dangerous.

 

[JamesCaruso]

The devil is outside of time so he us unchangeable unlike us who were created and redeemed in time according to God’s great mercy an justice.

Be careful how you word things. The devil, like us, was created in time and exists in time, Only God exists outside of time.

 

[paul_c]

Ok I think whats happening is confusion. A non-Catholic who, through no fault of their own is invincibly ignorant (has no knowledge of Christ or His Church) can be saved (Paul see your own quote). Here’s our Merciful God’s way-thru Baptism of desire. What that LITERALLY means is “baptism or PURIFICATION” by “desire or LOVE” of God. Ok, I’m gonna go slow now. That means that if a Protestant or Jew or Muslim or Pagan ‘desires/loves’ God, God will baptise/purify/cleanse that non-Catholic in the fire of the Holy Spirit as He does Catholics (and some Protestants) and if that protestant/Jew/Muslim/pagan commits a mortal sin and is in his/her heart truly sorry, God will cleanse/purify/baptize them again and will do thus multiple times throughout the person’s life as He does for us through the sacrament of reconciliation (and Holy Communion) bc He knows that non-catholic of goodwill has no access to Himself through His Church an if they did have this access they would utilize the proper sacrements. Although we do profess ONE baptism for the forgiveness if sins, we profess multiple cleansings or “purifications” through the sacraments. In the case of “baptism of desire” (which is available even to Catholics who, thru no fault of their own, lose access to sacraments) baptism is being used in it’s literal sense-as a cleansing -not it’s sacramental sense -one time thing. This is where the gift of understanding really makes it’s mark -in
the language or “diction” of the Church and her doctrines. As smart as we are, we have to
admit that canon lawyers don’t go to college senselessly!

Lets just stay balanced. It is appropriate to recognize that God will be merciful to those that honestly seek to do His will and are truly sorry when they fail. But it is inappropriate to imply that it is not necessary to partake of the sacraments if they are available. We should encourage all people to take advantage of the graces available in the sacraments because they are the surest way to heaven. Ask any of the thousands of converts who are on this website. They will tell you about the efficacy of the sacraments and why those that keep themselves away for any reason are making a mistake. And baptism of desire only applies to those that have had no access to the sacrament. its not a replacement for confession for those that stop going.

 

[Brendan_64]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

And those who through no fault of their own (Protestants, non-Christians etc.) who do not realise that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth are not included in the affirmation that “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. Simply knowing that the Catholic Church exists, and that Catholics say that it is the one true Church is not the same as that person themselves knowing that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

If these people seek God with a sincere heart then (despite not having ever received the Sacrament of Confession, or in the case of a non-Christian not even having been baptised) then they too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Darryl_B]

Lets just stay balanced. It is appropriate to recognize that God will be merciful to those that honestly seek to do His will and are truly sorry when they fail. But it is inappropriate to imply that it is not necessary to partake of the sacraments if they are available. We should encourage all people to take advantage of the graces available in the sacraments because they are the surest way to heaven. Ask any of the thousands of converts who are on this website. They will tell you about the efficacy of the sacraments and why those that keep themselves away for any reason are making a mistake. And baptism of desire only applies to those that have had no access to the sacrament. its not a replacement for confession for those that stop going.

Can I ask a question then because I don’t know if I have this correct. Anyone who openly rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord but does works fitting the Christian expectation, will they go to the abode of the dead because they haven’t received the grace from God to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and then be resurrected and judged at the consummation and be given grace accordingly? I would like to know the official Church teaching.

 

[paul_c]

And those who through no fault of their own (Protestants, non-Christians etc.) who do not realise that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth are not included in the affirmation that “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. Simply knowing that the Catholic Church exists, and that Catholics say that it is the one true Church is not the same as that person themselves knowing that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

If these people seek God with a sincere heart then (despite not having ever received the Sacrament of Confession, or in the case of a non-Christian not even having been baptised) then they too may achieve eternal salvation.

WE are obligated to tell others that what the Catholic Church teaches is the way to heaven. Although ignorance of the gospel does not preclude people from going to heaven, they are still obligated to lead the Christian moral life. This is much harder if you don’t have people and the sacraments leading you to holiness. Note, it says they MAY achieve eternal salvation if they seek God with a sincere heart, not that the WILL achieve it.

As for people that hear about the Catholic church and its claims but chose to ignore them, don’t assume that this will be forgiven. God will read their hearts and know why and judge accordingly

 

[paul_c]

Can I ask a question then because I don’t know if I have this correct. Anyone who openly rejects Jesus Christ as their Lord but does works fitting the Christian expectation, will they go to the abode of the dead because they haven’t received the grace from God to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and then be resurrected and judged at the consummation and be given grace accordingly? I would like to know the official Church teaching.

If you openly reject Christ, even if you lead a moral life, you will not be saved. You need to love both God and neighbor.

Of course, there is always the chance to repent right up to the point of death so we can’t judge anyone

 

[pocohombre]

I ask you Brendan, what is the definition of a mortal sin? Does it or does it not, remove us from the state of grace? And are we required to be in the state of grace to be saved? I think the answer is yes. So how is a person to regain grace if not by sacramental confession? Now I grant you that God is not bound by his sacraments so there could be exceptions. Nevertheless, the Chruch calls to us to evangelize for a reason. Does anyone benefit by us telling them that sacramental confession is not necessary for the forgiveness of mortal sin, when in fact the church teaches that it is,? Isn’t it in fact a spiritual work of mercy to instruct those that don’t know this. A protestant is not condemned to hell if he commits a mortal sin - he has the chance until death to reconcile to God. The only way we know to do this is sacramental confession or perfect contrition on his deathbed. And by the way, I noted this in the part of the quote you chose to delete.

never said this. i recognize the baptism of desire and the baptism of blood. In fact, I referenced them in the post between this one and the one you commented on.

I’m not making any assumptions on who God will forgive, as I stated in my first paragraph. As for being out of line with the current position of the church, how so. Show me my error. This is what the catechism says:
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I agree with your “hardness” and I also like that others are calling for “sensitivity”.But I would rather folks know of the strictness of CC teaching. I mean some nasty things things have happened in 2000 years,some in the leaven of strictness. There is valid reason for there being an Orthodox and Protestant Church (and that these must "bend’,and not CC, for any hope of ecumenicalism).

 

[StillCatholic]

I would like to risk something here. I would like to post a prophetic dream I had as a young girl of somewhere around 8 years of age. First let me say, I was born and raised in a Catholic household, attended Catholic school taught by nuns, up to 8th grade. (I am 62 years old now)

In this dream I was exiting through the doors of my then childhood parish church–giant heavy bronze doors. It was a very large building. I loved to go in every morning before the school bell would ring. I would pray with the daily Mass attenders and I just loved it. I loved my Jesus so much. In this dream, as I was exiting the building, I stood at the top of the stairs and was confronted by a mob of strange people. They looked like medieval farm peasants and they were shouting at me and waving their farm tools at me. The crowd suddenly parted and through them and up the stairs came a beautiful white stallion with blue eyes. He knelt down to let me get on his back and then when I did, he turned and went back down the stairs and through the crowd to the back of the church building where he once again knelt down to let me slide off his back and hide in this old wooden shack nearby. I peered out the slats of this structure to watch him rear up on his hind legs fighting off the mob that seemed to be after me.

I will never ever forget that beautiful and curious dream. I was always so fascinated by the magificense of that beautiful stallion. I had no idea at the time that I was experiencing a prophetic dream nor would I have believed anyone who would have told me at the time that it was depicting my leaving the Catholic church. Today, however, I see that it was in fact, telling me something for today. I did leave the church, in 1974. I left it for non-denominational evanglistic fellowships that lasted 37 years. I finally returned to the Catholic church 2 years ago, 2011. I am stunned by the revelation of that prophetic dream which I believe serves to prove to me that leaving the Catholic church was not a safe thing for me to do, however, in HIS love, He came to my rescue and kept me safe until I have now safely returned to where I belong. I thank Him and praise Him for HIS love and faithfulness to me. I want more than ever to return that love and faithfulness back to Him.

Sorry this was so long. But, I hope this helps anyone out there.

 

[Brendan_64]

That really is a lovely story. Thank you for sharing it with us.

 

[Brendan_64]

WE are obligated to tell others that what the Catholic Church teaches is the way to heaven.

I agree with you entirely on that issue.

Note, it says they MAY achieve eternal salvation if they seek God with a sincere heart, not that the WILL achieve it.

And the same applies to us. All of us MAY achieve eternal salvation, that does not mean that we WILL achieve salvation.

I think we need to be very careful about making pronouncements on who will and will not be saved. By saying such things we are implying that we know the mind of God. We are in danger of arrogance and pride when we say, or even imply such things.

 

[steve_b]

And those who through no fault of their own (Protestants, non-Christians etc.) who do not realise that the Catholic Church is Christ’s true Church on Earth are not included in the affirmation that “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. Simply knowing that the Catholic Church exists, and that Catholics say that it is the one true Church is not the same as that person themselves knowing that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

If these people seek God with a sincere heart then (despite not having ever received the Sacrament of Confession, or in the case of a non-Christian not even having been baptised) then they too **may **achieve eternal salvation.

As we know

• ignorance isn’t always innocent as fault isn’t always innocent. Especially when one takes little effort to find the truth.
• May ≠ will, May ≠ probably, May might only be remote.