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Brendan_64
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That is not Baptism, but the Sacrament of Confirmation which completes the grace of Baptism.
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steve_b
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The Catholic Church is one.
Jn 17: 11 And now I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17: 20 "I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
the apostles were to be one as Jesus and His Father are one, and all those who follow them were to be one, as Jesus and the Father are one. No division
Protestantisn of all stripes otoh, divided from this Church, and have remained divided, and try and justify remaining divided. There is no justification for division. Division from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is condemned.
p:
Nope. I’m talking about the only Church Jesus established
· Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all κατά kata…ὅλος holos] Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" iow the Church is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
· St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæansof which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
· St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
· Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3
· Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
· The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
· etc etc
division from the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church is condemned [Gal 5:19-21]. The Church of scripture, The Church Jesus established on Peter. The Church today, pope Francis is over, the 266th successor to St Peter
The same Church Paul wrote to
Rom 16:17 I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites,] and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded. 19 For while your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, I would have you wise as to what is good and guileless as to what is evil; 20 then the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
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brb3
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“Apostolic” Catholic … a shoot off the vine of that Pentecost Church tree. Able to trace one’s Christian lineage back to the first Church / with Peter as Papa, … feeding the sheep.
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pocohombre
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pocohombre
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Yes, freedom of conscience,even free will has been blamed for division, but unity by force has failed miserably in the past also. Perhaps all men are liars(imperfect), and only God is true. Perhaps this Catholic /Orthodox/Protestant thing is to keep us humble. We must all admit that the other side has it’s winners and losers too, just like our side. Can you imagine marching step for step with a divisionist and the divisionist with a papist toward the wedding and groom ? The Didache says, “Thou shalt not make a schism, but thou shalt pacify them that contend” . See the responsibility is on both sides…
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pocohombre
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Apostolic is as apostolic does . Don’t we all do the Apostles Creed ? Did the apostles hear confession ? Did they pray to dead saints or to Mary or the Rosary,or call others "father ? Is there a declaration that Peter was infallible when needed ? Did they place the eucharist in a monstrance ? Did the apostles live in palaces,or have an army, form a country/states ? Were they celibate ? Were they monastic? Did they wear normal apparel,in and out of service(Mass) ? Did they speak in the language of the people ? How many sacraments did they administer ? And yes, some of these things are a “practices” but some stem from doctrine.
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asd72
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Catholic and orthodox Churches are Apostolic. We simply receive the deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles.
Your interpretation of “There is a way that seems right to a man, yet the way is the way of death”, seems odd to me.
I am not understanding how you are applying it to what we are discussing. To me the proverb is more about how we must align our will with Gods, ‘not my will but yours’. The theme of 'the two ways - the way of life and the way of death, runs throughout the bible.I didn’t get the message the you had to be a certain denomination in Evanglicalism, so I am picking you are from a mainline denomination, since you do think it matters. The message I got from Evanglicalism was that so long as you believed in certain “essentials”, the rest of doctrine wasn’t a barrier to unity.
What denomination are you?
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Darryl_B
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Excuse me, now you are talking sides? The unity of the church is to keep us humble NOT division, but you then place the division down to God?
Do you really feel that it is acceptable reasoning on your part?
I think the papist as you put it will be saying to the divisionists “Welcome Home”.
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Brendan_64
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I think that as Catholics that perhaps we have to be careful about insisting that all other Christians ought to be united in our Church in order to achieve salvation. Yes we are the only Church that can claim direct, unbroken lineage to the Church Christ set up on Earth, but can we honestly, hand-on-heart, claim 100% that all we are, all our beliefs, all our practices, etc. are of that Church, whereas those of our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ are not?
Rather than be focussing on this, we ought to be focussing of Christ’s Great Commandments, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" and "You shall love your neighbour as yourself., because as Christ told us, "On these two commandments depend all the law”
Do we keep these commandments ourselves? Do our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ keep to these commandments?
Rather than be focussing on this, we ought to be focussing of Christ’s Great Commandments, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" and "You shall love your neighbour as yourself., because as Christ told us, "On these two commandments depend all the law”
Do we keep these commandments ourselves? Do our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ keep to these commandments?
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asd72
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No one’s insisting other Christians have to be Catholics to achieve salvation. The question is “does God want everyone to be Catholic?” I believe Jesus made it very clear in The gospel of John in His prayer to the Father that the answer is yes. He wanted us " all to be one" for us to " follow the teaching of the Apostles by word or letter.
The Catholic Church has admitted some of the fault for the rupture in unity too. There were mistakes on all sides. But we have to find the right balance. Vatican II focused on starting with what we have in common which is good, but it doesn’t mean that we should not desire full unity. It doesn’t mean it’s all relative, that it doesn’t matter.
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JamesCaruso
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steve b;10604151:
A promise to Adam ,a covenant with Abraham, five books from Moses, some prophets. A thousand years later it is quite multiplied, quite united and still divided.They were Jewish, but within her were Saduccees, Pharisees,Zealots etc,etc, and books upon books of interpretation and religious tradition . Christianity began with the twelve apostles 27 books, then apostles creed, followed by more rules upon rules and more dogma and interpretation,all Christian but now zero room for differing interpretations? What is wrong with such a picture? Is that Christian ,to say if you don’t do Easter on my day you are excommunicated, or if you don’t baptize or eucharist of forgive exactly as I do, you are dead ? If you don’t believe in Mary and her Immaculateness or Assumption or a perfect pope, you are ,because of zero tolerance ,dead to us, excluded from heaven ? Even though some of the doctrines listed are only mandatory belief for the last century and a half, something earlier Christians were not bound to? What happened to the simpler days of faith? Maybe it is the protestant who is at fault ,but maybe it is the new laws being laid down that are at fault for division. So then as you judge ye shall be judged? Are you going to be excluded from heaven for causing division for putting forth stuff that was never mentioned by St Paul ? Thankfully, graciously may I not be bound to zero tolerance on issues that are not essential to Christianity and say others are not going to heaven. Actually the CC teaches "others " are going to heaven,as some have mentioned here.Sorry, but saints will be marching together, some that were transubstantialist, some were consubstantialists, some were spiritual presence,some that say Mary Assumed and some that say not ,some that say bishop of Rome is supreme ,others not , etc etc . Get my drift? This is catholic teaching. She obviously knows there is a more universal foundation to Christianity than just her own interpretation of other things. …So you have to put something other than to gain admittance to heaven to suggests why God wants us to be Catholic. Say it is the best path ,the most graced, but certainly not the only path within universal Christianity. Hence some here say ,well they have been polite and haven’t said no directly to the thread question,but put forth the more fundamental thing God wants.#5 says for all to be born again, #13 and 27 accept the Lord as savior #38 to be saved,#45 get to heaven,Catholic best but not only church
#93 belong to God . All these are universal and quite catholic.Just how much more God wants is the debate here . We must be careful of “judaizers”, all of us, personally and corporately. It is in our fallen nature to “judaize”, or to say I am of Peter I am of Paul. Remember the apostles had to be corrected by Jesus for not understanding a group of believers /disciples outside of the immediate twelve.If you are for Christ ,you are not against him . And Peter had to be corrected for inquiring about Johns 'walk " and future -what is that to you ,worry about yourself .
(No need to shout.)
OTOH, we have to be careful not to be overly liberal.
Yes, God does want all people to become Catholic. Why? Because Jesus left His promise to be with us until the end of time with His Church, founded on Peter, (Matt 16:18) not with all of us by virtue of our being Christians. Only the Catholic Church, by God’s own decision, has the whole truth. Now, if anyone says that one must be Catholic to be saved, they are clearly wrong, and I agree with you. But is there salvation through any other name but Jesus? No! Is there a better way to Jesus than through His Church? No! So, naturally God wants everyone to be Catholic, because it is the best way to come to Jesus. It has the Bread of Life in the Holy Eucharist, and those to whom it has given the power of Consecration. It has the forgiveness of sins even with imperfect sorrow through the priest. It has the whole truth in its teaching through the safeguarding and inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It teaches the proper role of Mary as Mediatrix with her Son, as Mediatrix of all graces, as the safest of all ways to Jesus and our salvation. Truth, Holy Eucharist, the Sacraments, Mary. Yes, God wants every person to be a Catholic, because God in His Love wants everyone to have his or her best opportunity for eternal salvation. Death on a cross for our salvation is God’s gift of love to the world, and the Catholic Church is God’s choice of instrumentalities s to make that salvation accessible. It is also a gift of God’s Love. We, who know this, are bound to become members of the Church. All others are excused only by their ignorance.
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JamesCaruso
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God always respects our free will.
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JamesCaruso
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DId we once wear diapers? Were we once fed mush and milk? Were we once unable to walk? Were we once helpless and dependent on our parents?
True, we are no more human now than we were then. But should we want to go back to those days of our infancy? I think not. Our new standing is better than our former standing. Education is an improvement over ignorance. Adulthood is a progression from childhood. Either God has led Holy Mother Church in its development or the whole thing is a fraud. I for one have no desire to go back to former days and the lesser understanding and wisdom that goes with it. The Church has given us the tools we need for dealing with today’s modern world. She has shown us how to apply the ageless truths of the Gospel to situations the early Christians could not have imagined. Thank God for the Holy Catholic Church!
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brb3
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JamesCaruso
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pocohombre;10606379:
…and by this sign we shall conquer.
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pocohombre
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Wow,we are better, more “mature” than a church actually overseen by the apostles themselves during their day .sounds like rennaisance evolutionary humanismin the church
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JamesCaruso
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The Church is more mature, although its leadership is deprived of the in person acquaintance with Jesus when He walked the earth. Still, what you are saying is like saying the Apostles were better off before Jesus ascended into heaven than they were after the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Was Peter better off when he taught that one must become a Jew before being accepted into the Church, or after he conferred with others, including Paul, and came to the conclusion that a non-Jew could directly enter into the Church? Dispensing with the knowledge acquired over the centuries by the Church through experience and the guidance of the Holy Spirit might be a foolhardy position. I no longer wish I had been a companion of Jesus when He walked the earth as I did when I was less mature in my faith. I realize now that the All Loving God put me in the perfect place according to His Divine Will. Glory be to God!
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Iron_Donkey
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In short, yes we are, in matters of doctrine. Now, being with the apostles would be awesome, I’ll grant you, but take a look at the various heresies we’ve had to fight:
Did Jesus have 1 nature or 2? 1 will or 2?
Was Jesus actually fully God? Is the trinity a real thing?
Is baptism necessary? Can we, by our own efforts without help from God, attain salvation? Do we start the process or does God?
And then there is the various gnostic heresies. And more.
These questions arose because people didn’t know the answers. Now, if the apostles had still been around, they could have answered them, but in their absence the bishops exercised the same role and we now have more knowledge than we did then.
So yeah. The Church is more mature now than it was then. This is pretty obvious, really, just from studying the types of questions that came up.
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steve_b
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Due to years of division, the Church has pastorally judged that a person’s birth into schism is not directly attributable to them as sin. They didn’t personally choose to divide from the Church. However some Catholics did choose to leave the Church and join some divided group. Either way, once any person* knows* it’s the Catholic Church that was instituted by Christ and division from which is condemned by scripture, and refuses to enter the Catholic Church or remain in her, there is no salvation for them. [Gal 5:19-21] lists various mortal sins, one of which is division from the Church. If one dies in any of these sins they will go to hell.
p:
In context this was an issue about Jew vs Gentile at the time. Let Jesus explain. When a non Jew approached Jesus asking for assistance, Matthew 15:22-28
After the Ascension, Peter would be the one to open up the Church to the Gentiles by baptising Cornelius. Prior to that the Church was 100% Jewish.
Jesus established One Church, the Catholic Church. Jesus established Peter as the one to lead and rule the Church. He was given the keys. Pope Francis is the 266th successor to Peter.
All Protestants regardless of stripe trace their roots to the 16th century revolt from the Catholic Church. Division from this Church scripture condemns. Not my words but Paul’s, speaking under the influence of the HS.
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steve_b
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I would just make the qualification that, ignorance is one’s only wiggle room, and that even ignorance is not always innocent.
(emphasis mine)
“they could not be saved who, *knowing *that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it”. 846
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