Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

[JamesCaruso]

Thank you .The problem is when sick people make theology and decrees or decisions, as the thread properly criticizing a particular Protestant church. We tongue in cheek often say when bringing up possible flaws.challenges that believers /churches face that, “it doesn’t happen in our church, just the one down the street”. “I’m OK, You Are Not OK” was a popular book a grandma used to mention. Hence you statement that there is nothing wrong with the Catholic Church, and to finish the theme , would you say as there are “wrongs” in other churches ?

I would say that in matters of faith and morals there is nothing wrong with the Catholic Church, but I do not credit that to the Catholic hierarchy, it is based solely on Our Lord’s promise to protect it from error. This is not to say that the Church has never engaged in abusive practices. The Protestant reformation did not occur on a whim. But the real reformation came from within the Catholic Church and stayed within the Catholic Church. The so-called Protestant reformation did not reform anything, it lost patience with the Church (or in the case of King Henry, defied Church doctrine), left the Church, and in so doing adopted some heretical tenets of faith. Have there been doctrinal errors promulgated by the Catholic Church?-- I contend, no. Have there been doctrinal errors promulgated by the Protestant sects?-- I contend, yes. Have there been wrongs perpetrated by certain Catholic Church leaders-- I admit, yes. Have there been wrongs committed by leaders of Protestant sects-- I contend, yes. In the area of faith and morals alone do I claim the Catholic Church superior to all other churches. In the area of human failings, well, we’re all human, Catholic and Protestant alike.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Yes times change and it is a challenge.But I still say the more things change the more they stay the same. So ,the first church had it just as tough and I would not rationalize "change’ ,or at least not all change… I have already mentioned some of the things that are done today that were not done with apostles.

I forget what they are, but in that case, I hope they’re an improvement, like confession, which grew out of need slowly perceived need, or infant Baptism, which I believe is sound on all counts. I think it’s not a penchant for judaizing so much as attending to needs as they become obvious.

 

[Brendan_64]

I would say that in matters of faith and morals there is nothing wrong with the Catholic Church, but I do not credit that to the Catholic hierarchy, it is based solely on Our Lord’s promise to protect it from error. This is not to say that the Church has never engaged in abusive practices. The Protestant reformation did not occur on a whim. But the real reformation came from within the Catholic Church and stayed within the Catholic Church. The so-called Protestant reformation did not reform anything, it lost patience with the Church (or in the case of King Henry, defied Church doctrine), left the Church, and in so doing adopted some heretical tenets of faith. Have there been doctrinal errors promulgated by the Catholic Church?-- I contend, no. Have there been doctrinal errors promulgated by the Protestant sects?-- I contend, yes. Have there been wrongs perpetrated by certain Catholic Church leaders-- I admit, yes. Have there been wrongs committed by leaders of Protestant sects-- I contend, yes. In the area of faith and morals alone do I claim the Catholic Church superior to all other churches. In the area of human failings, well, we’re all human, Catholic and Protestant alike.

Very good post.

 

[StillCatholic]

Whew. Don’t rain on their parade. Well, they could say, “rejoice with those who rejoice”. But amen to your sentiment and sensitivity ,for “Houston we got a problem” and not all are rejoicing.

I’ll just keep repeating the mantra: Love as Jesus loved, He came to demonstrate for us love of the Father and told us to be perfect/holy as He is perfect/holy.

 

[pocohombre]

I’ll just keep repeating the mantra: Love as Jesus loved, He came to demonstrate for us love of the Father and told us to be perfect/holy as He is perfect/holy.

Amen.

 

[Church_Militant]

John Martignoni has a free CD on this topic that has just come out.
Does God Want Everyone to Be Catholic?

 

[brb3]

brb3;10613070:

Proof yes but of what ? Catholic is a good word and we now see it’s possible origins.It may not matter cause for sure it is your name now. Still, when did the adjective become the name? I like it a lot as an adjective, as first intended in my opinion.I like that early church a lot also.

And then, … where do you find that early church today ?

 

[JamesCaruso]

Never doubt that Jesus is still with His Church today in a very intimate way. The Church is His visible gift to us.

Did you ever notice that every gift of God seems to have a very similar purpose, guiding us home, guiding us to more perfectly patterning our lives after Jesus’ life, transforming us into Jesus, into love.

The Holy Spirit, God’s gift of Himself to our daily lives.

Mary, Jesus’ gift of His Mother, in whose womb we all live, waiting to be born into His Love forever.

Holy Mother Church, like a good mother, like Mary, is attentive to our every spiritual need.

And lest we forget, our guardian angel, tirelessly at our side, unheralded, quietly watching, guiding, protecting us from danger.

All of God’s creation seems bent on our ultimate happiness, our ultimate life in His Presence forever, all I say, but the free agents He created who have chosen not to serve Him and are bent on the destruction of our immortal souls.

Thank you, Mary for crushing the head of the serpent.

Thank you, Saint Michael, the archangel, for defending us in battle and being our continual protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. Ah! Another gift! Michael.

We have been given so many gifts.
We are so very rich.
We are so very blessed.
What choice have we?
A humble heart and a contrite spirit You will not spurn, O Lord.

+Deus tecum,

James

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10615541:

And then, … where do you find that early church today ?

Well, it’s more where do we find Jesus today? It is not that we “protest” or don’t like her or are rebellious or carnal, but something is missing, something that many find elsewhere. It’s just a fact that about 40-50% of the churches/study groups,Christians I meet are are ex-catholic. Most are very thankful for the seed planted by her but they just weren’t born again in her. May our hearts be broken enough to avoid vain disputation about this and come to a better understanding of this phenomenom.

 

[pocohombre]

I think G-d wants everyone to be as kind, loving, and charitable toward their fellow humans and other creatures as they possibly can in their daily lives.

Amen, one from the true vine that will bless all the earth.

 

[Aaron_Creagh]

That is not Baptism, but the Sacrament of Confirmation which completes the grace of Baptism.

Why does the bible call it a baptism, then?

 

[brb3]

brb3;10619819:

Well, it’s more where do we find Jesus today? It is not that we “protest” or don’t like her or are rebellious or carnal, but something is missing, something that many find elsewhere. It’s just a fact that about 40-50% of the churches/study groups,Christians I meet are are ex-catholic. Most are very thankful for the seed planted by her but they just weren’t born again in her. May our hearts be broken enough to avoid vain disputation about this and come to a better understanding of this phenomenom.

Well, grass often seems greener over the fence.

I am a firm believer/proponent of Protestant Sinner’s Prayer …but, it is also found (had its origins) in the Catholic Church !! So, IMO, the Catholic Church offers it all. No one can be a true seeker in Catholic Church …and not be reborn of water & fire. And, Catholicism is far and away the best Church venue for obtaining graces unto perseverance.

These facts, which are self-evident, are reason why all need to be Catholic. So, I wouldn’t say " there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church " …but, I would say " if not for the Catholic Church — there would be no hope for anyone" !!

 

[R_C]

So, I wouldn’t say " there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church "

…and in fact we don’t say that

However it does make some sense (considering the thread’s title) that if Christ creates a Church and if that visible Church is especially or uniquely present within what we term the “Catholic” Church, then obviously God wants everyone to be joined to it. That is not to the exclusion of anyone, and the Catholic Church is the first one to teach that even non-Christians who achieve salvation do so through Christ and the Church, for it is a basic element of faith that “outside of the Church there is no salvation”. However, one must be careful in defining the word “Church” and humble enough to acknowledge what is to be acknowledged.

If this was not true, then we’d have to presume that the opposite is true: that God wills for the house built on the rock to be a divided house, and the flock to be scattered.

 

[R_C]

Well, it’s more where do we find Jesus today?

We find Jesus all around us, in our hearts, in the eyes of our loved ones, of the poor and sick. But we also find Jesus in a Church that has stood under the worst possible trials and still gathers within her gates the vast majority of Christianity as well as the plenitude of her teachings, rejecting all man-made novelties and holding on to a tradition that often means persecution and hatred from both the world and other fellow Christians. We find Jesus in the legitimate apostolic succession, in the Eucharist they alone may consecrate, and in the absolution they alone can give. We also find Jesus in the thousands of brothers and sisters who have through the centuries separated from the Church that presides in charity and have formed their own doctrines by altering Catholicism. They, too, deserve their spot of heaven. We also find Jesus in every man and woman who does not even know Him, who perhaps does not even know God, who struggle through a perhaps brief existence of pain and sorrows that appears senseless from its very beginning. They more than anyone else are blessed, for what they have not received in this life they shall receive in the next.

But that is barely the point at hand. The point is whether or not the Son, in deciding to take flesh and form a mystical body of baptized of which He is head, also decided to establish a visible body with a head and a hierarchy, “on earth as it is in heaven”, as perpetual as His mystical body. If this is so, then by reason alone even an atheist can affirm that obviously He wants all to be joined at once to both the mystical and the visible body (for there is only one Christ, only one bread). Why is this so difficult to accept? Why must we be so bold as to pretend that a congregation founded a few centuries ago is closer to Christ than the most ancient and extended of His congregations, from which all others were made and without which none that were made would exist?

Truly us Catholics are often accused of being proud (though we can truly boast in nothing but the weakness of our Church of sinners) but perhaps true pride is to be found also amidst those who refuse to unite in one flock, holding on to their own little community as if in it was something so great, so important, that suffices to resist the natural desire to unite all Christians. Perhaps it is a rejection of the idea of a hierarchical, ministerial priesthood, of a visible head to whom we must be subject by obedience…but is this not pride? Is this not blatant disregard of all our forefathers in the Early Church did amidst the harshest persecutions?

Truly I have yet to meet a Catholic who knows the faith well enough to say: I would rather not be Catholic. I have only met one such man in my life, and surely enough after much sorrow he is still Catholic. The temptation to depart the Church and join other groups that promise a somewhat easier, simpler path is great…and enticing…otherwise, it would be no temptation…but blessed is the man that endures temptation.

 

[pocohombre]

pocohombre;10623375:

Well, grass often seems greener over the fence.

has zero to do with it .By finding Christ I meant being born again, meeting Him as Lord for the first time.

I am a firm believer/proponent of Protestant Sinner’s Prayer …but, it is also found (had its origins) in the Catholic Church !!

perhaps ,but where have you plcaed it? Remeber most are "born "Catholic,that is baptized by parents and soon confirmed.It would be against cc teaching to apply the prayer if you are already “Catholic”,for you are already supposedly “born again”.,

IMO, the Catholic Church offers it all. No one can be a true seeker in Catholic Church …and not be reborn of water & fire.

Yes, I believe some in CC have this fire in their belly that is Christ thru an “experience” they’ve had as youth or adult,a kind of awakening to their spiritual life that they did not have before (despite baptism/confirmation.) They sound “protestant”,like they have been born again,but of course they can not say that cause of church teaching.I am only talking about folks I have heard on Catholic radio ,giving their testimony,writing books,starting ministries,talking mostly about Jesus,jesus,jesus,and of course some on sacraments…

These facts, which are self-evident, are reason why all need to be Catholic. So, I wouldn’t say " there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church " …but, I would say " if not for the Catholic Church — there would be no hope for anyone" !!/

I am reminded of worldly ,corporate competitiveness,and work ethic ,“What have you done for me lately.” That CC teaches we all are indebted to her does not change the fact of so many of her “kids” get saved in protetstantism today,still.

 

[JamesCaruso]

We find Jesus all around us, in our hearts, in the eyes of our loved ones, of the poor and sick. But we also find Jesus in a Church that has stood under the worst possible trials and still gathers within her gates the vast majority of Christianity as well as the plenitude of her teachings, rejecting all man-made novelties and holding on to a tradition that often means persecution and hatred from both the world and other fellow Christians. We find Jesus in the legitimate apostolic succession, in the Eucharist they alone may consecrate, and in the absolution they alone can give. We also find Jesus in the thousands of brothers and sisters who have through the centuries separated from the Church that presides in charity and have formed their own doctrines by altering Catholicism. They, too, deserve their spot of heaven. We also find Jesus in every man and woman who does not even know Him, who perhaps does not even know God, who struggle through a perhaps brief existence of pain and sorrows that appears senseless from its very beginning. They more than anyone else are blessed, for what they have not received in this life they shall receive in the next.

But that is barely the point at hand. The point is whether or not the Son, in deciding to take flesh and form a mystical body of baptized of which He is head, also decided to establish a visible body with a head and a hierarchy, “on earth as it is in heaven”, as perpetual as His mystical body. If this is so, then by reason alone even an atheist can affirm that obviously He wants all to be joined at once to both the mystical and the visible body (for there is only one Christ, only one bread). Why is this so difficult to accept? Why must we be so bold as to pretend that a congregation founded a few centuries ago is closer to Christ than the most ancient and extended of His congregations, from which all others were made and without which none that were made would exist?

Truly us Catholics are often accused of being proud (though we can truly boast in nothing but the weakness of our Church of sinners) but perhaps true pride is to be found also amidst those who refuse to unite in one flock, holding on to their own little community as if in it was something so great, so important, that suffices to resist the natural desire to unite all Christians. Perhaps it is a rejection of the idea of a hierarchical, ministerial priesthood, of a visible head to whom we must be subject by obedience…but is this not pride? Is this not blatant disregard of all our forefathers in the Early Church did amidst the harshest persecutions?

Truly I have yet to meet a Catholic who knows the faith well enough to say: I would rather not be Catholic. I have only met one such man in my life, and surely enough after much sorrow he is still Catholic. The temptation to depart the Church and join other groups that promise a somewhat easier, simpler path is great…and enticing…otherwise, it would be no temptation…but blessed is the man that endures temptation.

The human condition is such that we seek more freedom and less constraint. We want to be free like the birds in the air, not trapped in a cage. We want to be free from the hard words and sayings of a Church that seems to complicate our lives with its rules and structure, with it’s constant admonitions, with all of its do’s and don’t’s.

In the early Church when Christians were experiencing the fullness of the Holy Spirit in more demonstrable ways than most of us do today, some of them began to believe they needed nothing else, just God’s Spirit dwelling within them and leading them to all truth. But it was not so long after that some Christians declared new revelations from the Lord and went off this way and that way. And so began the first heresies, the first conflicts within the Church, the first dissents from its teaching.

What we have learned down through the centuries was no easy lesson, namely, that the experience of the Holy Spirit, while a wonderful manifestation of God’s love, is subjective, given to perceptual error, and susceptible to deception. That is why the Apostle John instructs early Christians to discern the spirits. 1 John 4:1

What we have learned down through the centuries is that we must test everything received in private revelation against the only objective measure the Lord has given us, and that is the teaching of His Holy Church, which He has promised to keep free from error.

Were it not for that critical need for objectivity, I would be the first to fly off with the Spirit, soaring to the heights, and right through the bars of those pearly gates, no need to check in, as they say, with Saint Peter standing there, book in hand.

 

[JamesCaruso]

But not so fast! We don’t get our wings until AFTER we pass the test, run the race, capture the crown, or whatever metaphor you want to put to it. That yearning for freedom is real, it is based in the freedom of love, and we will soar to the heights some day, only now it is time to apply ourselves to the tasks set before us on the earth, now is the time to earn our wings. :angel1:

 

[pocohombre]

The human condition is such that we seek more freedom and less constraint. We want to be free like the birds in the air, not trapped in a cage. We want to be free from the hard words and sayings of a Church that seems to complicate our lives with its rules and structure, with it’s constant admonitions, with all of its do’s and don’t’s.

In the early Church when Christians were experiencing the fullness of the Holy Spirit in more demonstrable ways than most of us do today, some of them began to believe they needed nothing else, just God’s Spirit dwelling within them and leading them to all truth. But it was not so long after that some Christians declared new revelations from the Lord and went off this way and that way. And so began the first heresies, the first conflicts within the Church, the first dissents from its teaching.

What we have learned down through the centuries was no easy lesson, namely, that the experience of the Holy Spirit, while a wonderful manifestation of God’s love, is subjective, given to perceptual error, and susceptible to deception. That is why the Apostle John instructs early Christians to discern the spirits. 1 John 4:1

What we have learned down through the centuries is that we must test everything received in private revelation against the only objective measure the Lord has given us, and that is the teaching of His Holy Church, which He has promised to keep free from error.

Were it not for that critical need for objectivity, I would be the first to fly off with the Spirit, soaring to the heights, and right through the bars of those pearly gates, no need to check in, as they say, with Saint Peter standing there, book in hand.

Thank you Getting a lot of thoughtful responses deserving more time but quickly, it is not about constraint or freedom, but about being born again or not.It is not about being tempted to something else.It is about having knowledge in the flesh, but not born again yet for these folks. It is CC tells them about Jesus, heaven, hell, judgement to come, all well and good, but then to actually meet Jesus is something else. It is like Nicodemus,full of beautiful religion, the one, true, Abrahamic Jewish religion, but still not getting it, not born again as Jesus pointed out. This is the phenomenom I encounter today when speaking with these folks.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Thank you Getting a lot of thoughtful responses deserving more time but quickly, it is not about constraint or freedom, but about being born again or not.It is not about being tempted to something else.It is about having knowledge in the flesh, but not born again yet for these folks. It is CC tells them about Jesus, heaven, hell, judgement to come, all well and good, but then to actually meet Jesus is something else. It is like Nicodemus,full of beautiful religion, the one, true, Abrahamic Jewish religion, but still not getting it, not born again as Jesus pointed out. This is the phenomenom I encounter today when speaking with these folks.

There are different levels on which we meet Our Lord. Don’t be quick to brush this one or that one off as not being born again of water and the spirit because no physical signs follow their baptism. Many have signs but still do not walk in the fullness of the light. Because of bad teaching, their minds reject sound doctrine. These will come to realize this when they come face to face with whom they think is the devil, and find it is the Lord, often not recognized after his resurrection from the dead. You may think you possess the fullness of the truth, but verily, I say that you have only begun to taste the feast I have prepared for you. Study, therefore, to show thyself approved, and do not accept every doctrine that men have placed before you. My truth is with and in my Church and I will not abandon it. Do not give up the little I have given you because your still darkened mind cannot understand what the Spirit speaks. You will find the nourishment you need to grow in wisdom and love and truth in my Church. It is time to partake of solid food, no longer the milk of babes. And after this fashion the Lord speaks to those who are not of the true Church but believe they are, who attack the true Church because they believe it is of Satan, and who, like Paul are zealous in their persecution, until mercifully the Lord appears to them, and asks, “Saul Saul, why persecutest thou me?”

 

[brb3]

There are different levels on which we meet Our Lord. Don’t be quick to brush this one or that one off as not being born again of water and the spirit because no physical signs follow their baptism. Many have signs but still do not walk in the fullness of the light. Because of bad teaching, their minds reject sound doctrine. These will come to realize this when they come face to face with whom they think is the devil, and find it is the Lord, often not recognized after his resurrection from the dead. You may think you possess the fullness of the truth, but verily, I say that you have only begun to taste the feast I have prepared for you. Study, therefore, to show thyself approved, and do not accept every doctrine that men have placed before you. My truth is with and in my Church and I will not abandon it. Do not give up the little I have given you because your still darkened mind cannot understand what the Spirit speaks. You will find the nourishment you need to grow in wisdom and love and truth in my Church. It is time to partake of solid food, no longer the milk of babes. And after this fashion the Lord speaks to those who are not of the true Church but believe they are, who attack the true Church because they believe it is of Satan, and who, like Paul are zealous in their persecution, until mercifully the Lord appears to them, and asks, “Saul Saul, why persecutest thou me?”

Good thoughts …