Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

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ClydeViola said:
Your question is self-glorifying and offensive. In the light of the many fallen priests molesting children, and the many Bishops and Cardinals that have be caught covering-up these indiscretions, perhaps a little more humility would be more appropriate, making this a very poor question. But now that you have asked……let me say this:
Code: 
   Jesus never espoused any one religion…  In fact, He went out of His way to make certain that there were NO relics of His life left behind, nothing written by Him, no portraits or paintings of Him or by Him etc.
   When studying the life of Jesus, we must separate the wheat from the chaff. We cannot let the historical echoes of men wanting the control of institutionalize religion and the riches of its coffers to affect our thinking. Remember, original sin is a myth. The concept that man has fallen and that we must pay for the sins of our ancestors is erroneous. That Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross to redeem our sins is a misconception. That some will be punished eternally in hell fire is superstition. That we can win the favor of God through sacrifice and penance to appease His wrath is barbarous. That the Father is moody and was only touched by the sorrow of His Son dying on the cross is a travesty of His character. Catholicism embraces much of the above.
   When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch.
   Never forget what Jesus said on the cross. ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’ And yet, not only was He a living revelation of His Father’s true character of love and mercy, but was also given the challenge to love men so much that His love would awaken the response of love in the human heart. 
   Must we be a Catholic to respond to this LOVE? Do you still believe that God wants all of us to be Catholic?
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On what grounds do you declare yourself a Catholic (in your profile)? Certainly not by the teachings of the Catholic Church, which you have largely repudiated in your very first post.
 
ClydeViola said:
Your question is self-glorifying and offensive. In the light of the many fallen priests molesting children, and the many Bishops and Cardinals that have be caught covering-up these indiscretions, perhaps a little more humility would be more appropriate, making this a very poor question. But now that you have asked……let me say this:
Code: 
   Jesus never espoused any one religion…  In fact, He went out of His way to make certain that there were NO relics of His life left behind, nothing written by Him, no portraits or paintings of Him or by Him etc.
   When studying the life of Jesus, we must separate the wheat from the chaff. We cannot let the historical echoes of men wanting the control of institutionalize religion and the riches of its coffers to affect our thinking. Remember, original sin is a myth. The concept that man has fallen and that we must pay for the sins of our ancestors is erroneous. That Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross to redeem our sins is a misconception. That some will be punished eternally in hell fire is superstition. That we can win the favor of God through sacrifice and penance to appease His wrath is barbarous. That the Father is moody and was only touched by the sorrow of His Son dying on the cross is a travesty of His character. Catholicism embraces much of the above.
   When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch.
   Never forget what Jesus said on the cross. ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’ And yet, not only was He a living revelation of His Father’s true character of love and mercy, but was also given the challenge to love men so much that His love would awaken the response of love in the human heart. 
   Must we be a Catholic to respond to this LOVE? Do you still believe that God wants all of us to be Catholic?
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Hmmm… When studying the life of Jesus… how do you propose to do that without the words of his followers, beginning with the Apostles and those others who wrote the gospels as well as the letters, mostly from St. Paul, and the living tradition that was handed on?

Jesus himself talked about hell and pointed out that there would be many who choose to go there. It’s real simple. When you get there after this life there are two gates. The narrow one, so narrow that only one can go through at a time, has a sign above it, “God’s way.” The other gate is wide enough for a freeway with a huge neon sign above, “I did it my way.” (By the way, Elvis or even Sinatra did not originate that song. That was written by Cain about the time he killed Abel.)

God is a loving father. He’s so loving that he will not force you to do it his way. He gives you all the warnings you need and he provides abundantly the means to do it his way and thereby receive his mercy, but if you choose to “do it my way”, he will let you do so. How much more loving could he be than that?

Anyone who doesn’t see the need to be Catholic, just hasn’t recognized how high the stakes are. They may well be too absorbed with this life. God says “here’s the way, and here’s the Church I am giving you to carry the message until Jesus returns.” It’s not rocket science to realize that if you want to do it’s God’s way you’ve got to get with the Church that he founded.

So people are sinful, and some percentage of priests and bishops and cardinals are or have been gravely sinful. And that signifies what? Without true repentance and the humility to ask forgiveness from God, they will not see his mercy. For crimes under the law they will be punished by the authorities just as anyone else, and for crimes against God they can still receive forgiveness if they seek it.

Oh yes, God is merciful. He can forgive even those we cannot forgive and use to try to discount and discredit an entire faith.

ClydeViola, you list yourself as catholic. Whether you use the “me-too”-ism of some protestants trying to claim the designation, or you mean you have been baptized in the Catholic Church, Roman or otherwise, most of what you have said is the teaching of Christ is not even remotely Catholic from anytime since the term was first used to today.

If anything it has a gnostic ring to it. If you can accept the Gospels at least as authentic, theologically and historically, that would be the place to start to understand what Jesus actually taught. Since you quote him on the cross, I assume that you give the gospels some credence for accuracy.

Jesus himself speaks of hell (a superstition you suggest) more than any other in all of Scripture. I guess he was just as superstitious as his followers have been since.

As for me, I will remain faithful to the mythological, erroneous, misconceived, barbarous travesty that is the Catholic faith, handed on from the Apostles of Jesus Christ by the Roman Catholic Church for the past 2000 years, sinners and saints notwithstanding.
 
pocohombre said:
Again,the “switchover” is done with much thought and much objectivity, especially everything of their past Catholic life.in fact they may ponder it much more than they did while a practicing Catholic.
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Most who leave the Catholic Church do so out of self will. Following Christ’s church and all it’s teachings is very difficult in any age. People do have a free will and a sinful nature, after all. The teachings of the Church are good and true and will lead us to holiness. Those who depart are seeking their own self serving wills to be done in such matters as sexual sin, contraception, adultery, fornication and abortion. Being Catholic becomes very uncomfortable when we know that we are sinning against God. Going to a happy/clappy church where all we need do is say some words and -voila! ‘yup, we’re on our way to heaven for sure’ is a very attractive and easier road which often leads to despair and destruction of the spirit.
 
MatthewMark said:
Jesus does not use religion to divide his followers. Only man does that.
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Absolutely. In the beginning of the Church at Pentecost there was one Church. There has always been one Church and that Church remains today.

A glance at Church history shows how over the centuries there were heresies and splits from the true Church. Some have remained closer to the faith than others. But you are right, that dividing is man-made.

You list yourself as protestant. What is it that you are still protesting? I am not trying to be flippant or insulting. That is a serious question. I know because I was raised a protestant of the evangelical stripe.

All of the heresies from the earliest days to today have centered around doctrine and authority and often both, and those people have walked away from the Church. People have been walking away from Jesus Christ and his Church since the Bread of Life discourse recounted in St. John’s Gospel. “Are you going to leave me too?” was the question Jesus asked of the twelve. That core of disciples/apostles (minus Judas Iscariot) became the Catholic Church and that Church is still answering, “to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

This is serious, critical stuff. Jesus himself says in St. Matthews Gospel that there will be those in the end who will not be with him even though they did miracles in his name, and prophesied in his name. For anyone who takes the “me and Jesus” path, that should quite literally scare them into the Catholic Church.

At minimum, reading the prayer of Jesus in the garden before the crucifixion that all should be one, just as he and the Father are one, should give pause to the protesters and make them wonder whether they are indeed grieving the very Jesus that they claim to love and believe in by continuing to separate themselves from his Church.

Perhaps you are making a distinction between religion and faith, as some have done in the past. I remember my grandfather explaining why he didn’t go to church with me and my grandmother. He said that he worshiped God by looking around at creation and meditating, or words to that effect. Sad as I find it to say, because I loved my grandfather, that doesn’t cut it. There are ample Scriptures to verify that.

When Jesus said “do this in memory of me” and instructed his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit;
When he gave them authority to forgive sins and retains sins;
When he commanded them to make disciples of all nations;
When he gave Peter the keys and told him to feed his sheep and support his brethren;

that was religion, religious practice, worship, liturgy and Church authority. And he still wants us to all be one.

Jesus didn’t separate religion from faith, he established religious practice on the faith. And without any reference to any Catholic apologetics, just a simple reading of the Gospels should send anyone who is seeking to love and obey Jesus Christ in search of that Church that he called his own.
 
uther said:
Absolutely. In the beginning of the Church at Pentecost there was one Church. There has always been one Church and that Church remains today.

A glance at Church history shows how over the centuries there were heresies and splits from the true Church. Some have remained closer to the faith than others. But you are right, that dividing is man-made.

You list yourself as protestant. What is it that you are still protesting? I am not trying to be flippant or insulting. That is a serious question. I know because I was raised a protestant of the evangelical stripe.

All of the heresies from the earliest days to today have centered around doctrine and authority and often both, and those people have walked away from the Church. People have been walking away from Jesus Christ and his Church since the Bread of Life discourse recounted in St. John’s Gospel. “Are you going to leave me too?” was the question Jesus asked of the twelve. That core of disciples/apostles (minus Judas Iscariot) became the Catholic Church and that Church is still answering, “to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

This is serious, critical stuff. Jesus himself says in St. Matthews Gospel that there will be those in the end who will not be with him even though they did miracles in his name, and prophesied in his name. For anyone who takes the “me and Jesus” path, that should quite literally scare them into the Catholic Church.

At minimum, reading the prayer of Jesus in the garden before the crucifixion that all should be one, just as he and the Father are one, should give pause to the protesters and make them wonder whether they are indeed grieving the very Jesus that they claim to love and believe in by continuing to separate themselves from his Church.

Perhaps you are making a distinction between religion and faith, as some have done in the past. I remember my grandfather explaining why he didn’t go to church with me and my grandmother. He said that he worshiped God by looking around at creation and meditating, or words to that effect. Sad as I find it to say, because I loved my grandfather, that doesn’t cut it. There are ample Scriptures to verify that.

When Jesus said “do this in memory of me” and instructed his disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit;
When he gave them authority to forgive sins and retains sins;
When he commanded them to make disciples of all nations;
When he gave Peter the keys and told him to feed his sheep and support his brethren;

that was religion, religious practice, worship, liturgy and Church authority. And he still wants us to all be one.

Jesus didn’t separate religion from faith, he established religious practice on the faith. And without any reference to any Catholic apologetics, just a simple reading of the Gospels should send anyone seeking to love and obey Jesus Christ in search of that Church that he called his own.
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Well spoken. 👍
 
ClydeViola said:
Your question is self-glorifying and offensive. In the light of the many fallen priests molesting children, and the many Bishops and Cardinals that have be caught covering-up these indiscretions, perhaps a little more humility would be more appropriate, making this a very poor question. But now that you have asked……let me say this:
Code: 
   Jesus never espoused any one religion…  In fact, He went out of His way to make certain that there were NO relics of His life left behind, nothing written by Him, no portraits or paintings of Him or by Him etc.
   When studying the life of Jesus, we must separate the wheat from the chaff. We cannot let the historical echoes of men wanting the control of institutionalize religion and the riches of its coffers to affect our thinking. Remember, original sin is a myth. The concept that man has fallen and that we must pay for the sins of our ancestors is erroneous. That Jesus shed His blood and died on a cross to redeem our sins is a misconception. That some will be punished eternally in hell fire is superstition. That we can win the favor of God through sacrifice and penance to appease His wrath is barbarous. That the Father is moody and was only touched by the sorrow of His Son dying on the cross is a travesty of His character. Catholicism embraces much of the above.
   When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch.
   Never forget what Jesus said on the cross. ‘Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.’ And yet, not only was He a living revelation of His Father’s true character of love and mercy, but was also given the challenge to love men so much that His love would awaken the response of love in the human heart. 
   Must we be a Catholic to respond to this LOVE? Do you still believe that God wants all of us to be Catholic?
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Good Lord help us! I see that it states here that you are a Catholic. Seriously? Everything you have stated here was onced used to pull me away from the Catholic church. Today, I now have a far better understanding of the Catholic church and what you have just said here is a lot of misconception and misunderstanding. There have been many good things posted in this blog to give better understanding to anyone who seeks it and I don’t feel very qualified to attempt to help you understand what I think you sincerely don’t want to know or think about it. I hope you will find the truth not for salvation but for deeper growth.
 
whiter54 said:
As I have interviewed for jobs with private schools, I have asked which Church I go to. When I say Catholic, I am told, YOU KNOW THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIAN. Therefore I have been turned down on 12 jobs that I know of. How should I respond?
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If you are speaking of a religious based private school…there isn’t much you can say to change their minds. Also, think about the difficulty that would be presented if you were in a position to endorse anti-catholic rytheric.

If this is a private school NOT religious based, they have no business even asking you.
 
PeaceInChrist said:
I agree with you that we must all be more Christ-like, but the Lord did give many requirements for discipleship. Among them was the Great Commission. The Apostles were commanded to go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He told them that people who hear them, hear Him. He also prayed for unity in a very real, tangible way in His priestly prayer in John. Jesus wanted His followers to be so unified that they would be as the Father and He. There are many more requirements to be a disciple of Christ, as well, named throughout Scripture.

Now, if we look after Christ ascended, to Paul and the Apostles, we see they appointed men that they deemed worthy to lead after them. Paul writes to Timothy and Titus as bishops. Appointing men after them is an issue, as he also gives instructions on selecting a bishop. Bishops were, and are, appointed to carry on the Apostolic commission.

The need for unity in doctrine is seen in Acts 15, in which a decision had to be made on Judaising. Many may have claimed this was a minor issue, that circumcision was required. I mean, why didn’t they just leave the Judaisers alone and let them circumcize and follow the Old Law? They still proclaimed Christ, after all. But the Apostles decided it was not necessary, as works of the Old Testament do not save, but Christ’s sacrifice does.

If we look to the disciples of the Apostles, we again see the importance of bishops espoused, and we also see the requirement for obedience to them has always existed. Clement says that the Corinthian Church must be obedient to their bishops and priests. Ignatius emphasizes this, as well. In fact, obedience and unity are essentially the primary points of both their letters (though Ignatius also focuses on the Incarnation). This was because, immediately after the Apostles (and even during), there was widespread schism caused by the Gnostics. Unity was a primary concern of Jesus Christ, Paul, and the Apostles for a reason: there would be false shepherds, and the faithful had to have a way to discern them.

We can look only a little further (3rd generation of Christians, right after the disciples of the Apostles previously mentioned), to Irenaeus, who speaks of Apostolic succession, and obedience to bishops, as well as the importance of the Church in resolving theological disputes and the primacy of the Roman See. Nothing has changed since the beginning: it all remains in one Church.

You see, my brother in Christ, the Lord Jesus and His apostles, and their disciples after, did want unity in a very visible way. This is the more perfect way: that we be one, as Christ is in the Father and the Father in Him.
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Very nicely put, I would say. I only hope others will listen and acknowledge responses as much as they would speak. However, it is not so clear to me that the title “bishop” was in use in St. Pauls time, perhaps not until St. Ignatius. Still, as the adage goes, a rose by any other name is just as sweet.
 
pocohombre said:
Yes as in “Universal” Christian, the original meaning of “catholic”. Now if you mean Roman Catholic as some church signs post in my area,I will answer with an old song lyric,as my last post/thread talked about another song “Imagine"by Ono/Lennon. This lyric goes, “Don’t ask me what I think of you, I might not give you the answer that you want me to”. I will give an affirmative to 2 posts before me, God will’s that none should perish but that all have eternal life. Another post told the story of a “pilgrim” about to finish his sojourning and at a distance sees St.Peter at the Pearly Gates and shouts out, " Brother, do you see any Baptists up there?” St Peter says, “No”. Pilgrim aks again," Do you see any Anglicans up there"? St. Peter ,“No”. “Any Catholics?” “No”. “Any Orthodox?” “No, we don’t go by those names up here”. Pilgrim perplexed asks,“Well then who is up there?” St. Peter says, “Just those souls washed by the Blood of the Lamb”.
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The lyrics are, actually, from Fleetwood Mac’s song “Oh well.” Not that it matters for this post, but I appreciate accuracy when quoting any source.
 
paul_c said:
Poco,
I’ve been pondering this for a while. The Protestant Churches share much of the truth about salvation with the Catholic Church, some more, some less, depending on how much of the original Catholic faith they happen to have held on to.

Therefore, in many cases, Protestant churches can be a stepping stone to full membership in the Catholic Church. Many come to believe in Jesus through the efforts of the Protestant churches and then when they understand the genesis of the faith and desire the fullness of truth, they become Catholic. You see that alot on these pages.

But Protestantism is a two edge sword because by its very nature, you can find a denomination that will support anything you want it to. This can be a great temptation and can pull people from the one true faith because it appeals to their desires.

So in some cases, Protestantism leads to salvation (by acting as a stepping stone to full communion with the Catholic Church) and in other cases, it leads to condemnation by drawing people away from the Catholic Church and its sacraments. Ironically, of course, the leaders of these Protestant churches desire neither to save people by leading them to the Catholic church or to cause their condemnation.
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Thank you .Yes some go to CC,and some go off deep end of Pro.But many, those that I know do neither,they get saved and remain Pro. Your 2nd last sentence seems to say they get saved but are condemned cause cut of from CC/ sacraments. How can salvation lead to condemnation? Do you believe these ex Cat.are condemned?
 
psaflwhfe said:
Very nicely put, I would say. I only hope others will listen and acknowledge responses as much as they would speak. However, it is not so clear to me that the title “bishop” was in use in St. Pauls time, perhaps not until St. Ignatius. Still, as the adage goes, a rose by any other name is just as sweet.
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I hope all “good” Christians pray for unity. I pray that we all find a way to work through the divisions we have. I see fundamental concerns and definitions as prohibitive to many positive steps. As mentioned throughout this thread (although I haven’t read all the posts) is what is the Catholic Church’s Unity as practiced in the temporal world? I struggle with discernment of this. Even Ecclesiastical Unity is difficult to discern. So then we have the creeds (they don’t get into specifics on the church – other than Apostolic) which were put into place for unity/orthodoxy. Since this RCC was complicit in the divisions as far as I can tell, then why does the RCC insist on more than these creeds? Obviously that wouldn’t make everyone happy (in Unity), but it would be a step towards unity.
 
McGuTim said:
The lyrics are, actually, from Fleetwood Mac’s song “Oh well.” Not that it matters for this post, but I appreciate accuracy when quoting any source.
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I like accuracy in reading .In this texting day n age we are quick so sorry. I said another post talked of Lennon"s “imagine” but it was the flleetwood song that was "another " song .But thank you, forgot who did it and no one knew at work and no time to google. My post did read saying the lryics were "imagine/lennon
 
spbill said:
I hope all “good” Christians pray for unity. I pray that we all find a way to work through the divisions we have. I see fundamental concerns and definitions as prohibitive to many positive steps. As mentioned throughout this thread (although I haven’t read all the posts) is what is the Catholic Church’s Unity as practiced in the temporal world? I struggle with discernment of this. Even Ecclesiastical Unity is difficult to discern. So then we have the creeds (they don’t get into specifics on the church – other than Apostolic) which were put into place for unity/orthodoxy. Since this RCC was complicit in the divisions as far as I can tell, then why does the RCC insist on more than these creeds? Obviously that wouldn’t make everyone happy (in Unity), but it would be a step towards unity.
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I join you in prayer. We can either put up obstacles or we can unite with the Holy Spirit, who can overcome all obstacles. This is the work of the Spirit and we all need to be faithful to that call.
 
Clyde

Must we be a Catholic to respond to this LOVE? Do you still believe that God wants all of us to be Catholic?

Yes, I do. And I’m certainly not taking your word for it that he doesn’t. I’m taking his.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,” Matthew 28:19

If you really are a Catholic, stop contradicting Jesus! :mad:
 
We do profess the “one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” and that profession comes with an obvious superiority just by definition. We can not be so proud to profess (which is why we don’t) that God desires everyone to be a Catholic. We know that God wills for everyone to have Eternal life for He predestines no one to eternal damnation. We do know that Christ spoke of an elect with an apparent greater responsibility than the non-elect. We do know that the Church considers Catholics to be the said “elect” and we also know that God has been known to purify and justify “outsiders” (I.e. Job) We can therefore logically deduce from the facts that God chose an elect group of people to imitate His Son and evangelize (or act) in His name (Catholic body of Christ) but that God can and does purify and justify “outsiders” and we also know that God does desire for all people to be saved. So the question is really, " did God will that everyone be a catholic" and the answer is an obvious no. Had God willed for everyone to be a catholic then everyone would in fact be a catholic and since God did not will for everyone to be elected catholic, in His infinite mercy ad justice, God willed (and still wills) to save even non-Catholics. If you were elected your responsibility to become Christ-like (a saint) is infinitely greater bc of the infinitly greater amount of blessings you enjoy in comparison to say, a non-catholic who does not have the privilege (according to either his own neglect of or, in many cases, Gods placement of that soul in the world) of partaking in the prescous and life saving Body and Blood of Christ. God takes into account even pagans who are invincibly ignorant. God loves all His creatures. I assure you God loves a rock infinitely more than you love your own mother.
 
I really should further explain. Although it can be reasoned that God chose to glorify His mercy by saving even “outsiders”, it should still be kept in mind that we are still to try to convert and definitely pray for non-Catholics to be lead either physically or internally to the alter of grace. We should not judge or presume to know that someone will be saved or damned. Even the Church demands evidence (from God basically) before infallibly declaring someone a saint. We should, as Catholics, desire for everyone to be partakers of the blessed sacrament(s) because the sacraments are an extreme mercy (gift) that Christ suffered immensely to give to us becase they make our perfection that much greater. To openly deny the power of the sacraments or to refuse to participate in them (I.e a catholic in apostasy) is a pretty sure sign of eternal damnation. In other words, God desires for everyone to end up like Jesus and He willed for that to happen by participation in the life of faith and sacrifice. The sacraments make that easier on our end but are in no way required on God’s end to save. Hence the reason the saints who, out of love for God, went to such grave lengths (martyrdoms) to bring Him many souls (through the Church) even though they knew God didn’t technically need man to act on his behalf to save anyone.
 
pambarnes1516 said:
We do profess the “one, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” and that profession comes with an obvious superiority just by definition. We can not be so proud to profess (which is why we don’t) that God desires everyone to be a Catholic. We know that God wills for everyone to have Eternal life for He predestines no one to eternal damnation. We do know that Christ spoke of an elect with an apparent greater responsibility than the non-elect. We do know that the Church considers Catholics to be the said “elect” and we also know that God has been known to purify and justify “outsiders” (I.e. Job) We can therefore logically deduce from the facts that God chose an elect group of people to imitate His Son and evangelize (or act) in His name (Catholic body of Christ) but that God can and does purify and justify “outsiders” and we also know that God does desire for all people to be saved. So the question is really, " did God will that everyone be a catholic" and the answer is an obvious no. Had God willed for everyone to be a catholic then everyone would in fact be a catholic and since God did not will for everyone to be elected catholic, in His infinite mercy ad justice, God willed (and still wills) to save even non-Catholics. If you were elected your responsibility to become Christ-like (a saint) is infinitely greater bc of the infinitly greater amount of blessings you enjoy in comparison to say, a non-catholic who does not have the privilege (according to either his own neglect of or, in many cases, Gods placement of that soul in the world) of partaking in the prescous and life saving Body and Blood of Christ. God takes into account even pagans who are invincibly ignorant. God loves all His creatures. I assure you God loves a rock infinitely more than you love your own mother.
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Desiring and willing are too very different things. There is a huge difference between what God wants and what He forces us to do. Do you believe that He established a Church but that He only wanted certain people to join it? Why then did He send His apostles out to invite the entire world? Do you believe that God desires the special graces that exist in the Catholic Church alone, for example (with a few exceptions) the Holy Eucharist, or the sacrament of Reconciliation, and other sources of special graces, to go only to its Catholic members, but not to those outside the Church? And how can they receive these special graces and helps to salvation except through joining? Do you really believe that He doesn’t want everyone to join the Catholic Church and receive these special graces? Do you really believe that God wants certain people to stay outside the Church where they have a greater chance of losing eternal life? Just because people can be saved outside the Church does not mean God wants them to stay outside the Church. Yes, God wants everyone to be Catholic, but He does not force His will on anyone. I believe you should give further thought to your opinion, or at least, explain to me what I am missing? I don’t want to get off on the wrong foot with you-- maybe I completely misunderstand the point you are making. I do agree with you that God could make everyone Catholic if He wanted to, but I do believe He wants to leave it up to us, even though He stilll desires us to be Catholic. Do you follow what I mean?
 
pambarnes1516 said:
…Hence the reason the saints who, out of love for God, went to such grave lengths (martyrdoms) to bring Him many souls (through the Church) even though they knew God didn’t technically need man to act on his behalf to save anyone.
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No, God doesn’t NEED man for anything, but He did CHOOSE man to be the means of bringing His salvation to the world. That’s why He sent His apostles out to baptize everyone who would accept it into His Church, into His Mystical Body. He foresaw that not everyone would become a member of His Church, but that doesn’t mean He didn’t want them to. Love never forces its will on anyone. 🙂
 
ClydeViola said:
Your question is self-glorifying and offensive. In the light of the many fallen priests molesting children, and the many Bishops and Cardinals that have be caught covering-up these indiscretions, perhaps a little more humility would be more appropriate, making this a very poor question. But now that you have asked……let me say this:
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When terrible sin rears it’s ugly head, it hurts everyone. Especially when those in the hierarchy fall. No one hear that I’ve seen condones that.

But I have a suggestion . In the interest of exposing bad behavior, how many molesters, rapists, adulterers, fornicators, pedophiles, thieves, murderers, etc etc do you suppose have had their confessions heard by a priest? You know that by the seal of the confessional those sins can’t be revealed to anyone…right? The priest has to keep those sins they hear quiet. And when the individual leaves the confessional they are given absolution. Would you call that a cover-up?

How far does THAT go? Should all those sinners and their sins be exposed to the public? How about your sins?

technically, anyone out there committing mortal sin is scandleizing the faith. How many people out there do you suppose fall into that category of mortal sin?
CV:
Jesus never espoused any one religion… In fact, He went out of His way to make certain that there were NO relics of His life left behind, nothing written by Him, no portraits or paintings of Him or by Him etc.
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We have pieces of the cross. We have the shroud.

And we have the only Church He established.

We have the scriptures, and we know there is to be zero divisions among the hierarchy or from the people they teach. All this came as a result of the HS which Jesus sent to teach the apostles. The HS took from Jesus what Jesus wanted taught.

John 14:25-26
John 16:12-15
John 17:20-23

And we know from scripture the Church was the Kata holos Church
  • Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all καθ’kataὅληςholos ] Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria…" iow the Church is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means
  • St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæansof which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
  • St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
  • Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses [Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3
  • Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
  • The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
  • etc etc
CV:
When studying the life of Jesus, we must separate the wheat from the chaff.

[snip]
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I removed [snip], the chaff in that response 😉
 
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