Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

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adfraggs said:
My outstanding contention is that the church appears to assert that it provides the ONLY valid path to God and salvation. Catholicism has somewhat taken ownership of communion with God, almost as if it can’t happen without the church being involved. I can simply never agree with that. I understand that the chosen scriptures and views of the church support that view but then of course that would be the case. Asking a Catholic if there is some other way to salvation then becomes a fairly pointless question. Of course they will say that there isn’t. Jesus himself is quoted and interpreted as saying that only through HIM can that salvation be reached.

The repeated demonstration of human beings finding a true and remarkable relationship with God completely outside the teachings of Jesus seems lost on the Catholic church and I don’t understand why. I suspect it’s because the idea of knowing you are on the one and only true path to salvation is a remarkably comforting idea, one that few people would ever really want to let go of. But it does happen, and I think it happens just as often outside of the Catholic church as it does within it. That seems demonstrably true and my view is that it’s only through ignorance of the teachings of other religions and spiritual teachers that one could continue to deny it. I suppose I would not really expect the Catholic church to let go of such concepts that were established from the beginning, but it’s still surprising to find.
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What you DON’T know about the Catholic Faith is a lot!.. You are going talk to a Catholic about comforting ideas that few people will let go of?

Once saved always saved!.. Are you kidding me?.. Sounds like the biggest, fattest, wide open path one could think of!

Faith alone!.. Scripture alone, and YOU get to decide what Holy Scripture means to YOU!.. Oh yea, I forgot, it’s the Holy Spirit interpreting Holy Scripture for you personally, in a way that’s acceptable for you personally.

Nothing unclean may enter heaven!.. Except if your Protestant of course! Then you may sin and sin boldly, because you have been Sanctified by Faith alone and it will never go away, and now you are clean and perfect enough to enter into heaven!.. Really? Sign me up!.. NOT!

Wow!.. It’s a wonder there is still a Catholic Church pushing out all those
(“What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven”) bothersome rules!

Oh wait!.. There was that pesty little promise, wasn’t there?.. “And the gates of hell will not prevail against it”

PS- Jesus is not lost in the Catholic Church… Attend a Mass, you will be very surprised!
 
adfraggs said:
My outstanding contention is that the church appears to assert that it provides the ONLY valid path to God and salvation. Catholicism has somewhat taken ownership of communion with God, almost as if it can’t happen without the church being involved.
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This is not a contention, it is the Truth. Jesus set up His Church for the very reason that you protest: to teach the truths about salvation and to administer the sacraments to the nations (Matthew 28: 18-20). Since there is only one real truth, there is only one real path to heaven.
adfraggs said:
I can simply never agree with that.
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Don’t be so sure. Many, many people have said this and then consequently had a conversion of heart
I’m sure you have experienced similar things before, where something you thought for sure was true turned out to be false. Its the nature of being human, we can only see so much and when we get a different vantage point, we see things differently.
adfraggs said:
I understand that the chosen scriptures and views of the church support that view but then of course that would be the case. Asking a Catholic if there is some other way to salvation then becomes a fairly pointless question. Of course they will say that there isn’t.
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Of course- because we believe it is the truth. To not state it would be to mislead.
adfraggs said:
Jesus himself is quoted and interpreted as saying that only through HIM can that salvation be reached.
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This is true, but it is also true that the Church is the body of Christ. Consider this, On the road to Damascus, when Saul (later know as St. Paul) encountered the risen Christ, Saul was asked by Jesus, " Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME?". Now we all know that it was the church that Saul was persecuting, but Jesus obviously saw the Church as an extension of himself. We should too.
adfraggs said:
The repeated demonstration of human beings finding a true and remarkable relationship with God completely outside the teachings of Jesus seems lost on the Catholic church and I don’t understand why.
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Why do you say this is lost on the Catholic Church. It acknowledges that God calls to all men and it also recognizes that some may be saved who have never heard of Jesus by following the natural law within their hearts.The Church’s job is to reach out to these people to help them understand the nature of God and salvation and to give them the sacraments, which provide the grace to come more fully in communion with God.
adfraggs said:
I suspect it’s because the idea of knowing you are on the one and only true path to salvation is a remarkably comforting idea, one that few people would ever really want to let go of.
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I think its more that we believe its true.
adfraggs said:
But it does happen, and I think it happens just as often outside of the Catholic church as it does within it.
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How could you possibly know who goes to heaven? What is the basis for your statement other than personal conjecture?
adfraggs said:
That seems demonstrably true and my view is that it’s only through ignorance of the teachings of other religions and spiritual teachers that one could continue to deny it
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Why do you assume devout Catholics are ignorant of the teachings of other religions? This is a false assumption. Ask the thousands of converts on this website.
adfraggs said:
. I suppose I would not really expect the Catholic church to let go of such concepts that were established from the beginning, but it’s still surprising to find.
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Keep reading on this website. You won’t find it surprising at all after you understand better what the Catholic Church really teaches.
 
Is the Catholic Church the ‘narrow’ door … by which we must enter ?

I’d say :nope: … but, is it the Truest, Fullest Church today, the One from the Beginning, founded on Peter ? :yup:
 
brb3 said:
Is the Catholic Church the ‘narrow’ door … by which we must enter ?

I’d say :nope: … but, is it the Truest, Fullest Church today, the One from the Beginning, founded on Peter ? :yup:
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How do you define narrow door?
 
brb3 said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c View Post
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But don’t neglect that the Church is the body of Christ and his chosen instrument for bringing the truth and the sacraments to the faithful. By that definition, the Church is also the narrow gate through which the faithful pass to gain salvation. The Church is one with Jesus. If you doubt this, consider that when Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, He said," Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" , thus demonstrating that he viewed the Church as an extension of himself.
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casadepaz said:
Non-Catholic churches thought they had a better idea or wanted to worship more liberally and so over the years over 35,000+ other denominations “reinvented the wheel,” by “founding” their own brand of church. That is not to say that some Protestant religions are not following the precepts of the whole Bible. A few are.
The Catholic Church never left it’s original mission–people did. The mission remains the same–to lead people to Jesus Christ and live out Biblical Scripture in it’s purest sense.
Unfortunately, many Catholics and many Protestant’s make personal choices to think as they want to think and believe as they want to believe in order to fit Jesus in their own personal agenda.
It was the Catholic Church that accumulated the Biblical writings, translated the writings, studied the writings, and wrote (by hand) the first Bibles. Your NT came from the Catholic Church before it ever became the King James Bible.
The Catholic Church has the blood of martyrs who died for the preservation of Christianity and the Bible. The Catholic Church is built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and is the main root of all Christian Churches.
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👍👍👍👍
 
paul_c said:
But don’t neglect that the Church is the body of Christ and his chosen instrument for bringing the truth and the sacraments to the faithful. By that definition, the Church is also the narrow gate through which the faithful pass to gain salvation. The Church is one with Jesus. If you doubt this, consider that when Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, He said," Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" , thus demonstrating that he viewed the Church as an extension of himself.
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Given the account of Paul persecuting Christians would imply the believer defines the church.
 
Brendan_64 said:
You miss the point entirely. God knows everything, everything that is, everything that has been, and everything that will be. He is omniscient. He is also omnipresent, he is not bound by a framework of time and space (forces that He created). He is omnipotent, he is not bound by anything. How can it be otherwise?

We have free will, we will be judged on our actions. We do not know what our actions will be or how we will be judged, but God does. God does not change his opinion. God is not a mortal human operating within time and space, and having all the uncertainties that go with our position.

You seem to view God as some big, powerful human (who somehow happens to be immortal) looking down on us and wondering what we are going to do next, and making up his mind (and changing it) based on what we each do. He is not like this, He knows all things. He is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
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Actually I did not say that God is looking down on us wondering what we would do next. I am merely saying that what God wants depends on our actions. If you are a good person, he may want us to associate with you. Tomorrow if you do something evil, he may think it better for us not to be associated with you any longer. This goes for an institution like the church also. You can not be so sure that God thinks the Catholic church is perfect for everyone right now. As I said there were times when it was not so perfect…
 
paul_c said:
But don’t neglect that the Church is the body of Christ and his chosen instrument for bringing the truth and the sacraments to the faithful. By that definition, the Church is also the narrow gate through which the faithful pass to gain salvation. The Church is one with Jesus. If you doubt this, consider that when Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, He said," Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" , thus demonstrating that he viewed the Church as an extension of himself.
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Are the Protestant ecclessial communities also gateways to Christ ? Do they also preach ‘Christ and Christ Crucified’ ? Have they entered by the ‘narrow’ gate … that Christ said is essential ?

Was my Trinitarian Baptism as Protestant not Efficacious, or deemed unacceptable to the CC ?
 
openmind77 said:
Good story! Wouldn’t reading the Bible be sufficient to find the truth? In any case, I am truly impressed that so many here are sure they know what God wants. And that God will never change his mind about it, no matter what happens.
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Thank you .Yes your bible should be "sufficient " for all truth, however it is not enough just to read it, hence my little story. Actually the bible ,the church, even Jesus Himself is of no avail unless one is born again. God is willing to illumine us, but He must first make a place in us, out of us, to contain himself and His light. You can clean up a pig ,but he is still a pig and will get dirty again. The pig must be made a lamb,metamorphise like a butterfly. Jesus, said ,“You must be born again to to see the kingdom of God.” Then the bible and church folk will make sense to a soul.
 
openmind77 said:
Actually I did not say that God is looking down on us wondering what we would do next. I am merely saying that what God wants depends on our actions. If you are a good person, he may want us to associate with you. Tomorrow if you do something evil, he may think it better for us not to be associated with you any longer. This goes for an institution like the church also. You can not be so sure that God thinks the Catholic church is perfect for everyone right now. As I said there were times when it was not so perfect…
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God is so far above these human traits you apply to him.
 
paul_c said:
But don’t neglect that the Church is the body of Christ and his chosen instrument for bringing the truth and the sacraments to the faithful. By that definition, the Church is also the narrow gate through which the faithful pass to gain salvation. The Church is one with Jesus. If you doubt this, consider that when Jesus appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus, He said," Saul, Saul, why do you persecute Me?" , thus demonstrating that he viewed the Church as an extension of himself.
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👍
 
brb3 said:
Are the Protestant ecclessial communities also gateways to Christ ? Do they also preach ‘Christ and Christ Crucified’ ? Have they entered by the ‘narrow’ gate … that Christ said is essential ?
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It depends, I think. In some cases, the Protestant communities lead people, like yourself, into the fullness of faith in the Catholic Church. In this way, they are part of the narrow gate.

In other cases, though, they lead people away from the Catholic faith by allowing them an outlet that they think is okay but actually leads them away from the grace giving sacraments.In these cases, they can be part of the broad road to perdician.
brb3 said:
Was my Trinitarian Baptism as Protestant not Efficacious, or deemed unacceptable to the CC ?
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Yes. Indeed. For you, Protestantism was a positive step toward salvation because you continued it to its fullest extent. I think this can be the case for a lot of people. But certainly you will attest to what it lacked, having made your own personal swim across the Tiber.
 
paul_c said:
It depends, I think. In some cases, the Protestant communities lead people, like yourself, into the fullness of faith in the Catholic Church. In this way, they are part of the narrow gate.

In other cases, though, they lead people away from the Catholic faith by allowing them an outlet that they think is okay but actually leads them away from the grace giving sacraments.In these cases, they can be part of the broad road to perdician.

Yes. Indeed. For you, Protestantism was a positive step toward salvation because you continued it to its fullest extent. I think this can be the case for a lot of people. But certainly you will attest to what it lacked, having made your own personal swim across the Tiber.
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Ok then.
Back to the ‘narrow’ gate. Who/what is that gate ?
 
openmind77 said:
… You can not be so sure that God thinks the Catholic church is perfect for everyone right now. As I said there were times when it was not so perfect…
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Only if you take your eyes off the fullness of truth that it conserves; focusing on the human element will show the Church deficient in every age. Even Christ’s original contingent, handpicked by the Lord of lords, contained a betrayer and a denier. That’s one sixth of the original twelve, and we really don’t know the details of the rest, other than the fact that they all fled at his capture and only one of the twelve, John, we are told, was present at his execution.

So I say, “Yes!” you can be sure that God thinks the Catholic Church is perfect for everyone right now.

+Peace.
 
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