Does God want everyone to be Catholic?

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PeaceInChrist said:
Old Prof, God wrote the law on all our hearts, and made us in His image. Surely you will agree with those two Scriptural truths? I do not see, then, why God would not draw even the Gentile closer to Himself, if they are willing to respond.
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Yes, I do agree with those two Scriptural truths. God regenerates the elect (John 6:44), and leaves the non-elect dead, in trespasses and sin. The spiritually dead do not have the ability to do anything good - they’re dead, not sick, dead.
PeaceInChrist said:
I also do not see why, if a nonbeliever actively seeks to do good according to the law in his heart, he would not be more susceptible and responsive to the Spirit reaching out to him.
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I think my post explained this. If not, please let me know what specifically in my post you disagree with.

Regards, OldProf
 
OldProf said:
Yes, I do agree with those two Scriptural truths. God regenerates the elect (John 6:44), and leaves the non-elect dead, in trespasses and sin. The spiritually dead do not have the ability to do anything good - they’re dead, not sick, dead.

Regards, OldProf
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I agree that before the infusion of God’s divine life into us, we are dead in sin. But, as with Paul, many seek out God without being regenerated. Paul was told by God to do a penance of sorts, and remained blind the whole while. So, too, did Cornelius do as he was commanded, even before the Spirit descended upon him.

Of course, you and I will have different beliefs as to when a man is regenerated. But prior to the conversion of many, they are moved first to seek God, and are then regenerated.

Here is the verse from Acts 9, in which Paul is filled with the Spirit and then baptized, after following the command of God:

17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.

Surely if one can be so visibly instructed by God, and obey Him, and not be filled with the Holy Spirit (this is evident because Ananias lays his hands on Paul for this purpose), ordinary men can be called to God silently and slowly prior to their receiving the Holy Spirit?
 
PeaceInChrist said:
I agree that before the infusion of God’s divine life into us, we are dead in sin. But, as with Paul, many seek out God without being regenerated. Paul was told by God to do a penance of sorts, and remained blind the whole while. So, too, did Cornelius do as he was commanded, even before the Spirit descended upon him.

Of course, you and I will have different beliefs as to when a man is regenerated. But prior to the conversion of many, they are moved first to seek God, and are then regenerated.

Here is the verse from Acts 9, in which Paul is filled with the Spirit and then baptized, after following the command of God:

17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.

Surely if one can be so visibly instructed by God, and obey Him, and not be filled with the Holy Spirit, ordinary men can be called to God silently and slowly prior to their receiving the Holy Spirit?
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'zactly. 👍
 
PRmerger said:
When was he regenerated?

I thought that only occurred when the Holy Spirit fell upon him. Is that not your teaching?
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I think the reformed view is the most biblically accurate.

“In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)”

From: monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

The Holy Spirit will come upon the elect of God sometime after regeneration and before sanctification.

Regards, OldProf
 
OldProf said:
I think the reformed view is the most biblically accurate.

“In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)”

From: monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

The Holy Spirit will come upon the elect of God sometime after regeneration and before sanctification.

Regards, OldProf
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And when is it that one can do good works? Is it from one’s election (#1)? Or after one atones (#2)? Or some other number?

And please cite your Scripture verse to support your numerical choice.
 
PRmerger said:
And when is it that one can do good works? Is it from one’s election (#1)? Or after one atones (#2)? Or some other number?

And please cite your Scripture verse to support your numerical choice.
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Are you saying that good works can not come from those who do not believe?

If you are saying that- just be clear about it.
 
OldProf said:
The biblical explanation is in post 714.

Regards, OldProf
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(Edited)
There is nothing that a non believer can not do that a believer can do.
You can not tell me that believers have some special way of doing good. They can’t and don’t have any superiority in goodness.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Are you saying that good works can not come from those who do not believe?

If you are saying that- just be clear about it.
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That is not the Catholic position. It appears to be the Calvinist position.

Please try to follow which posters are supporting which views.
 
PeaceInChrist said:
I agree that before the infusion of God’s divine life into us, we are dead in sin. But, as with Paul, many seek out God without being regenerated. Paul was told by God to do a penance of sorts, and remained blind the whole while. So, too, did Cornelius do as he was commanded, even before the Spirit descended upon him.

Of course, you and I will have different beliefs as to when a man is regenerated. But prior to the conversion of many, they are moved first to seek God, and are then regenerated.

Here is the verse from Acts 9, in which Paul is filled with the Spirit and then baptized, after following the command of God:

17 So Anani′as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.

Surely if one can be so visibly instructed by God, and obey Him, and not be filled with the Holy Spirit (this is evident because Ananias lays his hands on Paul for this purpose), ordinary men can be called to God silently and slowly prior to their receiving the Holy Spirit?
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I think we agree that Saint Paul is one of the elect, correct? Therefore, per my post 718, he would be drawn by the Father (John 6:44).

But those non-elect unbelievers will have absolutely zero desire for the true God. They may be very zealous for a false god, or as an atheist - something that connects with their works-righteousness mindset that self-justifies them - but they will have zero desire for the true, triune God that Christians believe and trust in for their salvation.

Regards, OldProf
 
(Edited)
There is nothing that a non believer can not do that a believer can do.
You can not tell me that believers have some special way of doing good. They can’t and don’t have any superiority in goodness.
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Absolutely Believers do have a superiority in goodness.

Are there any atheistic equivalents to Maximilian Kolbe? Someone who has stepped up to give his life for a complete stranger out of love?

Sometimes this is the response, “Well, an atheistic soldier has done this!”

Let me be clear: I do not disparage the heroism of atheistic soldiers. Especially during this Memorial Day weekend where we pay tribute to our fallen soldiers. I honor them and value their sacrifice immensely.

However, there is something quite different in quality and degree between what Maximilian Kolbe did in a German concentration camp, and what a soldier does.
 
PRmerger said:
That is not the Catholic position. It appears to be the Calvinist position.

Please try to follow which posters are supporting which views.
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I am trying to, forgive me I have worked 60 hours this week and it looks like next week will be worse. I have the day off tomorrow so I am going crazy trying to catch up with everthing here. Calvinist views brought me here, where I feel much more at home.
 
PRmerger said:
I will give you a few moments to retract this, SJ. For it is clearly an uncharitable remark.

Absolutely Believers do have a superiority in goodness.

Are there any atheistic equivalents to Maximilian Kolbe? Someone who has stepped up to give his life for a complete stranger out of love?

Sometimes this is the response, “Well, an atheistic soldier has done this!”

Let me be clear: I do not disparage the heroism of atheistic soldiers. Especially during this Memorial Day weekend where we pay tribute to our fallen soldiers. I honor them and value their sacrifice immensely.

However, there is something quite different in quality and degree between what Maximilian Kolbe did in a German concentration camp, and what a soldier does.
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NOT retracting anything here - I find your comments offensive.
You really believe that belief gives you superiority or others of belief superior goodness.
I will NEVER agree to that.
 
StrawberryJam said:
I am trying to, forgive me I have worked 60 hours this week and it looks like next week will be worse. I have the day off tomorrow so I am going crazy trying to catch up with everthing here. Calvinist views brought me here, where I feel much more at home.
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Forgiven for this erratum.

But I hope you retract your uncharitable remark addressed to Old Prof.
 
PRmerger said:
Forgiven for this erratum.

But I hope you retract your uncharitable remark addressed to Old Prof.
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You know what?

Who the hell are you to forgive me?
Are you playing Jesus here?

I really think you need to take a step back and think about your self importance.
 
OldProf said:
I think the reformed view is the most biblically accurate.

“In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election/predestination (in Christ), 2) Atonement 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)”

From: monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

The Holy Spirit will come upon the elect of God sometime after regeneration and before sanctification.

Regards, OldProf
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Is it so impossible then for baptism to have some actual effect in terms of grace, along with the laying on of hands (confirmation)? It seems that, regardless of whether the person showed outward signs of the Spirit, the subjects were always baptized.

Besides this, Jesus commanded that it be done for salvation in Mark 16:

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

As is evident, Jesus required both baptism and belief. Additionally, according to Peter in Acts 2, those who are baptized will receive the Holy Spirit:

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In terms of the topic of God desiring everyone to be Catholic, Jesus’ prayer in John 17 leads me to believe that Christ desires complete unity among Christians, and the Catholic sense of unity is the clearest and most real that I have seen in existence:

20 “I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.

This, in addition to Paul’s warning against division in 1 Corinthians 3, the fact that Paul preached a unified faith and found it important to instruct against error, the unity of the early Church in coming to conclusions on matters of faith and morals, the unity maintained despite heresy, the continuity of this method throughout history, the promise of Jesus Christ to not leave us orphans and guide the Church against the gates of Hades, and the large amount of disunity because of an absence of decisive authority among the hierarchies of Reformed communities, lead me to believe that God would indeed prefer if everyone were Catholic.
 
StrawberryJam said:
You know what?

Who the hell are you to forgive me?
Are you playing Jesus here?

I really think you need to take a step back and think about your self importance.
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Please do not ask me to forgive you, then be aghast when I do forgive you. That makes no sense.

Are these not your words? (bold mine)
StrawberryJam said:
I am trying to, forgive me I have worked 60 hours this week and it looks like next week will be worse. I have the day off tomorrow so I am going crazy trying to catch up with everthing here. Calvinist views brought me here, where I feel much more at home.
Click to expand...
 
OldProf said:
I think we agree that Saint Paul is one of the elect, correct? Therefore, per my post 718, he would be drawn by the Father (John 6:44).

But those non-elect unbelievers will have absolutely zero desire for the true God. They may be very zealous for a false god, or as an atheist - something that connects with their works-righteousness mindset that self-justifies them - but they will have zero desire for the true, triune God that Christians believe and trust in for their salvation.

Regards, OldProf
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Yet God wrote the law on the hearts of all men (Romans 2:15), and made all men in His image. In addition, God desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), that they all come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), and Jesus died for the sins of all men (1 John 2:2).

How is it that God would not reach out to all men? Certainly there are those that do reach repentance, and those that do not, but how can one say that the Lord does not draw near to and desire all of them?
 
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