Does God will death?

[Seraphim73]

Well, you win. No without joking, I think I took the wrong word to talk of substitution.
By punishment I mean bad consequence. But I should have better distinguished the fact that the action of God is by allowing us to do so, and we actively (practically) kill ourselves.

I should have rephrased. I guess I underlined justice a bit too much. I wanted to show that if death appeared, it is not God’s will, but in His justice, He lets us freely chose.
About Jesus, I underlined too much the Lamb of God concept.

Lol I never win but I can agree with this.

Still Isaiah says “He bore the punishment that makes us whole,
by his wounds we were healed”.

In that same manner I intend punishment, just retribution for sin.

But that’s not what Isaiah says. The word punishment is not there at all.

 

[Seraphim73]

Just something: ewtn.com/faith/teachings/rdmpa1.htm"The Holiness of the Father, loving all that is morally right, wanted the scales of the moral order righted, wanted the debt to be paid. Further, the imbalance was infinite, so that only a divine Person incarnate could rectify it, by giving up satisfactions He could have lawfully had, and by suffering things He did not owe, with the intention of repairing the damage done to the moral order by sin"

That’s not accurate at all. To whom was the debt owed? How can a finite person commit an infinite offense? None of that makes sense and you can’t prove it from Scripture at all. This is just platonic sophistry.

 

[friardchips]

I agree with almost everything you have said but this. Why would you think that he couldn’t have made us any other way? Where do you get that idea. I have read Church Fathers say that God could have most certainly made us different, better even. That doesn’t mean that we are deficient, it just means that God could do almost anything with his creation. We love what He has chosen to do with us. The second sentence is also not exactly true. God could and has intervened to stop things from happening. An imprisoned person cannot continue his crimes, He allows us to be caught and stopped because He loves us and wants us to learn from our mistakes. Sometimes His love for someone else can stop a thing from happening, protecting his children. I know that you know this, but the sentences you wrote say something kind of untrue.

God Bless.

I agree/disagree. First, God made us in His own image. He could have made us as angels already or He could have made us to accept everything He asks of us but then 1. We would be angels not humans or 2. We would not be loving Him freely. He did a good job. Could He have made us perfect. He made the Universe as good as it could be, I think anyway. His design is NICE!

Angels help us all the time e.g:-

You know when you are about to say something that you feel might not be a good time and then something interrupts and it doesn’t get said: sometimes that is an angel (I think!).
God prompts us all the time and gives us signs and help even when we don’t ask for it if we are attending the Sacraments. This is increased grace. If we stopped praying and stopped receiving the Sacraments and being open to Him God would still work it so He was communicating to us somehow. The whole of Creation was made through Christ so all of Creation in some small or big way will point the way to God. And, and, and oftentimes when you think that you might be about to do something stupid and then a phone rings or someone gives you an idea or etc…etc…this is God helping you there and then! (I think!).

 

[Seraphim73]

I agree with almost everything you have said but this. Why would you think that he couldn’t have made us any other way? Where do you get that idea. I have read Church Fathers say that God could have most certainly made us different, better even. That doesn’t mean that we are deficient, it just means that God could do almost anything with his creation. We love what He has chosen to do with us. The second sentence is also not exactly true. God could and has intervened to stop things from happening. An imprisoned person cannot continue his crimes, He allows us to be caught and stopped because He loves us and wants us to learn from our mistakes. Sometimes His love for someone else can stop a thing from happening, protecting his children. I know that you know this, but the sentences you wrote say something kind of untrue.

God Bless.

God couldn’t create us any other way because God is love and perfect love requires a free being to be the object of that love. And God just doesn’t allow us free will, that’s how He created us. It’s what we are. God can’t change that because that’s not what He is. Do you think God is sitting there saying “well I’m gonna let Bob shoot Suzy in the head today but I’m gonna stop him from shooting Cindy”? Look at what’s happening in the Middle East. Do you think God is doing that? Of course not. The only answer is we are free because that’s the only kind of creature we could be and that we do what we want.

 

[MarcoPG]

1. To whom was the debt owed? How can a finite person commit an infinite offense? 3) None of that makes sense and you can’t prove it from Scripture at all. This is just platonic sophistry.

1. To God who was (so to speak) offended by sin
2. The very fact that sin appeared is infinitely opposite to God, who is infinitely Holy. The thing is, Adam committed a mortal sin, and mrtal sin leads to eternal death. (Nothing unclean can see God). But keep in mind also, it is not just one man, it is mankind, as a whole who sinned, men past present ond future.
3. We know very well that philosophy is essential.

Maybe you and I should look once again at the concept of subsequent Will of God (because of our free will).

 

[friardchips]

God couldn’t create us any other way because God is love and perfect love requires a free being to be the object of that love. And God just doesn’t allow us free will, that’s how He created us. It’s what we are. God can’t change that because that’s not what He is. Do you think God is sitting there saying “well I’m gonna let Bob shoot Suzy in the head today but I’m gonna stop him from shooting Cindy”? Look at what’s happening in the Middle East. Do you think God is doing that? Of course not. The only answer is we are free because that’s the only kind of creature we could be and that we do what we want.

Although He does intercede thanks to prayers. And thank Jesus for Our lady! Even people who are about to sin still have their God-given conscience. He always communicates to us but we are not always open to listening (as Jesus continually said when He spoke of people being blind and deaf to the meaning in His parables).

 

[MarcoPG]

Pacloc, Seraphim and I both take the same thing from different angles, and stilll the result is: God didn’t WANT or WILL death. So it’s fine

 

[Seraphim73]

Although He does intercede thanks to prayers. And thank Jesus for Our lady! Even people who are about to sin still have their God-given conscience. He always communicates to us but we are not always open to listening (as Jesus continually said when He spoke of people being blind and deaf to the meaning in His parables).

Of course God can call and persuade and things of the like. What He can’t do is control our will. That is ours to control.

 

[MarcoPG]

Of course God can call and persuade and things of the like. What He can’t do is control our will. That is ours to control.

But I see what he/she means when saying God could have, if it was His Will. But His Will is for us to be free, even more than us to have eternal life against ourselves.
So the answer is he could have, but no he didn’t since he follows his will. His will should have been other, and thus it would have been another God.
These paradoxes are always a problem, because they are absurd. And we do only reason with absurdity, where God is pure logic still unbelievable other , act still unchanging and motionless, love.

 

[Seraphim73]

1. To God who was (so to speak) offended by sin
2. The very fact that sin appeared is infinitely opposite to God, who is infinitely Holy. The thing is, Adam committed a mortal sin, and mrtal sin leads to eternal death. (Nothing unclean can see God). But keep in mind also, it is not just one man, it is mankind, as a whole who sinned, men past present ond future.
3. We know very well that philosophy is essential.

Maybe you and I should look once again at the concept of subsequent Will of God (because of our free will).

I would encourage to read this passage from St Gregory Nazianzen slowly and carefully a couple of times through.

Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth inquiring into. To Whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was It shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and High priest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause? If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether. But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence. But that brazen serpent was hung up as a remedy for the biting serpents, not as a type of Him that suffered for us, but as a contrast; and it saved those that looked upon it, not because they believed it to live, but because it was killed, and killed with it the powers that were subject to it, being destroyed as it deserved. And what is the fitting epitaph for it from us? O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory? You are overthrown by the Cross; you are slain by Him who is the Giver of life; you are without breath, dead, without motion, even though you keep the form of a serpent lifted up on high on a pole.

newadvent.org/fathers/310245.htm

 

[Seraphim73]

But I see what he/she means when saying God could have, if it was His Will. But His Will is for us to be free, even more than us to have eternal life against ourselves.
So the answer is he could have, but no he didn’t since he follows his will. His will should have been other, and thus it would have been another God.
These paradoxes are always a problem, because they are absurd. And we do only reason with absurdity, where God is pure logic still unbelievable other , act still unchanging and motionless, love.

What I mean is God can no more force our will than He can commit sin. It’s not who He is if you take my meaning. Thank you for the enjoyable conversation by the way.

 

[friardchips]

Hello everybody,

I have a question and i can’t seem to find an answer.

It is known that God is love, And as such God cannot will death, and death is a cause of sin.

However, it is seen in the old testament that many times either directly or indirectly God has killed. (Such as the flood)

How can a God that is LOVE will death?

THanks in advance

To the OP:

God does not will death. In the OT there are various books all of which were written by divinely inspired writers. Christ is to be found in those books so one needs to take care of how to study them and treat them with reverence. But the truth is that God did not kill anyone in the OT. People were given choices whether to change or to keep sinning and chose to sin - so they destroyed themselves. Much of the OT is prophetical to show us that the just consequence of sin is death but instead of having a prophet to intercede - Abraham, who tried to do this, or Noah - we have Christ. And in these stories, like when people were destroyed for ghastly sexual sins, Abraham interceded by saying: “if there are ten good men left, will you not destroy…”, and got the number down to one good man left. The point is that GOD SAID “YES”!!! He would spare them. Pointing to the infinite love and forgiveness and mercy of God. (We know is in Christ Jesus). But this could be considered prophetical because there was not one good man left. Jesus said in the Bible: only God is good. So this was a prophecy of Jesus Christ the one and only good man (because He was also God when man) and took the position of the punished sinner.

Another thing is that the OT is not to be taken literally in every book. But even if it was, the message in there is Christ, and not if a battle was won due to some of the attackers being mean and nasty and God exacting His revenge. Christ completed the OT, so if He didn’t do away with, this means that our interpretation is lacking when we say God has changed. We know that God inspires defence of the weak. He can give courage to those who wish to defend the weak or defend God’s name. So this is the angle to approach ‘dark passages’. The seeming difference in these passages to the NT is also important because it shows a growth in understanding of God’s love - a loving relationship where they didn’t understand the loving nature of God as fully as later on. This shows a deepening relationship.

God does not WILL death. IMHO.

 

[friardchips]

Of course God can call and persuade and things of the like. What He can’t do is control our will. That is ours to control.

Ya. I know. Just getting clarification for OP.

…however, that is not to say that our wills can’t be aligned with God’s, in the general direction (further clarifying). Our wills can be very much attuned with God’s (if we’re doing well)…to the point where we are doing His WILL. But true, we’re not simply active in a puppet theatre…

 

[fhansen]

Hello everybody,

I have a question and i can’t seem to find an answer.

It is known that God is love, And as such God cannot will death, and death is a cause of sin.

However, it is seen in the old testament that many times either directly or indirectly God has killed. (Such as the flood)

How can a God that is LOVE will death?

THanks in advance

We all die. Therefore God wills our physical death. Death, IOW, is the natural consequence of sin; sin, the opposition to God’s will, is death. It shouldn’t be otherwise, or else sin would continue eternally. Death separates good from evil (sin). In this life ex gain a sort if reprieve from eternal death (hell), where we can ultimately decide between the two, good or evil.

 

[MarcoPG]

I would encourage to read this passage from St Gregory Nazianzen slowly and carefully a couple of times through.

newadvent.org/fathers/310245.htm

Ransom, punishment and guilt should be properly understood, yes. Thank you for the quotation, very interesting, that can be conciliated with the Catechism.

“He died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures”

601 The Scriptures had foretold this divine plan of salvation through the putting to death of “the righteous one, my Servant” as a mystery of universal redemption, that is, as the ransom that would free men from the slavery of sin.397 Citing a confession of faith that he himself had “received”, St. Paul professes that "Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures."398 In particular Jesus’ redemptive death fulfills Isaiah’s prophecy of the suffering Servant.399 Indeed Jesus himself explained the meaning of his life and death in the light of God’s suffering Servant.400 After his Resurrection he gave this interpretation of the Scriptures to the disciples at Emmaus, and then to the apostles.401

“For our sake God made him to be sin”

602 Consequently, St. Peter can formulate the apostolic faith in the divine plan of salvation in this way: "You were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers. . . with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake."402 Man’s sins, following on original sin, are punishable by death.403 By sending his own Son in the form of a slave, in the form of a fallen humanity, on account of sin, God "made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."404

IN BRIEF

619 “Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures” (I Cor 15:3).

620 Our salvation flows from God’s initiative of love for us, because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).

622 The redemption won by Christ consists in this, that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mt 20:28), that is, he “loved [his own] to the end” (Jn 13:1), so that they might be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from [their] fathers” (I Pt 1:18).

623 By his loving obedience to the Father, “unto death, even death on a cross” (Phil 2:8), Jesus fulfills the atoning mission (cf. Is 53:10) of the suffering Servant, who will “make many righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities” (Is 53:11; cf. Rom 5:19).

 

[MarcoPG]

Lol I never win but I can agree with this.

But that’s not what Isaiah says. The word punishment is not there at all.

Ok I will try to rephrase here. We had to be punished, and this would have been a help for conversion. But ultimately, mankind had to be reunited to God. God Chose to take it on Himslef. He was “punished” instead of us, punishment meaning suffering spiritual death, that we might have had without the Son’s Incarnation. The Son takes it upon himself, while the human nature (let apart the Master side for a moment) served as sacrifice instead of us.
None of this (death, sin, need for the Son to be Incarnated and die) was actually God’s will. But because of our free will, he had a plan of salvation which included atonement.

The union of the two natures should also help. God The Son acquired for us infinite merits because He is divine, but the human nature had to be punished, as a parallel to the old Adam, so that mankind as a whole could be glorified.In that it is love, rightfulness and justice.

By the way. the Hebrew word in Isaiah is muwcar which bares the meaning of both correction and suffering (chastening, correction, discipline, instruction, punishment, reproof, warning).
The greek word is παιδεία paideia (education, disciplinary correction, temporary punishment). So the “eternal correction” done by the Son. In that sense I mean punishment, thank Jesus, otherwise we would have had eternal damnation. Correcting what or who is not clean is to be taken away from the clean One. That would have been the eternal punishment.
Another little anecdote: there is a word in French to say punishment, and that is correction.

 

[friardchips]

We all die. Therefore God wills our physical death. Death, IOW, is the natural consequence of sin; sin, the opposition to God’s will, is death. It shouldn’t be otherwise, or else sin would continue eternally. Death separates good from evil (sin). In this life ex gain a sort if reprieve from eternal death (hell), where we can ultimately decide between the two, good or evil.

God doesn’t Will our physical death. He created the world and gave us freewill to love or oppose Him freely. Sin causes death. God is not sin. To say God causes death is a contradiction to the loving Will of God just as saying that because all of creation exists so does sin and so God causes sin. Which we know He doesn’t.

God Willed creation through the speaking of The Word. He is the Beginning and the End. So if God was going to continually Will death then He would Will Himself out of existence. In fact, the universe has already received its grace in order to exist. If God were to continually Will anything then this might cause universe-replications. This is why we can say that Our Lady, for example, is the Dispenser of Grace, because God has already Willed it as such. To say that God continually Wills is like saying that He doesn’t already know what is to happen or is making it up as He goes along. This is not true. He knows everything because He has already written all of our deeds in His book!

 

[friardchips]

From the CCC:

I’N BRIEF

2318 “In [God’s] hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind” (Job 12:10).

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.

2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a “criminal” practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

2323 Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.

2324 Intentional euthanasia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.

2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.

2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin gravely.

2327 Because of the evils and injustices that all war brings with it, we must do everything reasonably possible to avoid it. The Church prays: “From famine, pestilence, and war, O Lord, deliver us.”

2328 The Church and human reason assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflicts. Practices deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes.

2329 “The arms race is one of the greatest curses on the human race and the harm it inflicts on the poor is more than can be endured” (GS 81 § 3).

2330 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God” (Mt 5:9).’

---

The only exception to killing another is in the case of defending against an unjust aggressor. So, in justice for example, Hell must be separate from Heaven. But it is not God Willing death. I think physical death is just natural consequence, of time, and of opposition to Justice. If God was to Will death then all of existence would be destroyed. (I think?) Death is a kind of paradox and very confusing. I’d put it like this: sin was at the start of human existence. And so death, came into existence after sin; both consequences of temptation; temptation, a consequence of free will; freewill…(?) So did God Will freewill? Or was freewill again another consequence of God’s love (?) This is the question.

 

[PJM]

=nanomatic;12406358]Hello everybody,

I have a question and i can’t seem to find an answer.

It is known that God is love, And as such God cannot will death, and death is a cause of sin.

However, it is seen in the old testament that many times either directly or indirectly God has killed. (Such as the flood)

How can a God that is LOVE will death?

THanks in advance

GREAT question!

Let’s start by understanding that God is and HAS TO BE Good. He can permit evil for His ability to bring good out of it; BUT cannot will EVIL for the sake of EVIL.

So in EVERY instance in the OT where God “PERMITS” evil it flows from Divine Justice and Fairness. As the Creator of the entire Universe and everything in it; God ALONE can rightly judge and issue JUST-punishment for man;s sins.

And that is precisely what He has chosen to don in the examples you site.

Actions HAVE consequences/

Because man ALONE has the necessary attributes t be enabled to FREELY know God, Love God or choose to hate God; man who so often chooses self over God ; then is a real sense self inflicts a just punishment from God for doing so*-

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[friardchips]

GREAT question!

Let’s start by understanding that God is and HAS TO BE Good. He can permit evil for His ability to bring good out of it; BUT cannot will EVIL for the sake of EVIL.

So in EVERY instance in the OT where God “PERMITS” evil it flows from Divine Justice and Fairness. As the Creator of the entire Universe and everything in it; God ALONE can rightly judge and issue JUST-punishment for man;s sins.

And that is precisely what He has chosen to don in the examples you site.

Actions HAVE consequences/

Because man ALONE has the necessary attributes t be enabled to FREELY know God, Love God or choose to hate God; man who so often chooses self over God ; then is a real sense self inflicts a just punishment from God for doing so*-

God Bless you,

Patrick

How can God permit evil that flows from divine justice? (To write:…‘flows from…’ indicates ‘…comes directly from…’.).

Also, if God punished us according to our sins, we would all already be dead.