Does God will our death?

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I was debating with an atheist, and somewhere along the line a good question was asked that I did not know the answer to…

Does will all our deaths? In other words, did God call all the people who died in the 9/11 attacks to Heaven (for example), or is it a matter of coincidence and misfortune when we die young?

My guess is that God KNOWS when we will all die, and He will not reveal this to anyone. He does not call for us to Heaven, but we must be prepared for Heaven (final judgement, anyways) at any time.

Is there an official dogma, doctrine, teaching, opinion on this?
 
No, He willed us to have eternal life. That’s what the resurrection was for.
 
jpusateri said:
Um…If God willed it, it would happen. Not all have eternal life (unless you call eternal death in Hell a different form of eternal life).
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Where do you get that from?

It was God’s will from the beginning that Adam not eat the fruit and look what happened…
 
bsdman said:
I was debating with an atheist, and somewhere along the line a good question was asked that I did not know the answer to…

Does will all our deaths? In other words, did God call all the people who died in the 9/11 attacks to Heaven (for example), or is it a matter of coincidence and misfortune when we die young?
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We die when we die, and it is God’s will that we do so.

We all die. No one doesn’t die. But no soul is ever un-created, and lives on in their eternal destination.
My guess is that God KNOWS when we will all die, and He will not reveal this to anyone. He does not call for us to Heaven, but we must be prepared for Heaven (final judgement, anyways) at any time.

Is there an official dogma, doctrine, teaching, opinion on this?
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Look up “Eternal life”, and “suffereing”, and “God’s will”, and “death” in the catechism for further info.
 
I guess my question is… our soul aside, does God choose the manner, time and place of our deaths?
 
bsdman said:
I guess my question is… our soul aside, does God choose the manner, time and place of our deaths?
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Nope. I would look at the Cain and Abel story. Where is that story did God get that granular?
 
pprimeau1976 said:
Where do you get that from?

It was God’s will from the beginning that Adam not eat the fruit and look what happened…
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What happened in Adam’s case and the case of all our sins was and is free will, which God also gave to us. As to the timing of our death - God permits us to die (death being ‘the wages’ of our sin) but I think His not telling us when we are to die is actually a blessing - it keeps us constant in holiness and good works, rather than slacking off and thinking we’ll repent five minutes before we die.
 
bsdman said:
I guess my question is… our soul aside, does God choose the manner, time and place of our deaths?
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This gets right back to the paradox of the simultaneous existence of God’s omnipotence and our free will.

Some say God’s omipotence nullifies our free will, and that we are puppets without any real free will, only the appearence of free will.

Some say God is not really omnipotent, as He can change His nature such that He makes Himself “unable” to know or do certain things, which allows us to have actual free will, but which makes God not-God because it allows God to make Himself non-God.

(( This latter “theory” is a variation of the, “God CAN make a rock so big that even HE can’t move it!” proposition. ))

Both “theories” are wrong, and our free will within God’s omnipotence is a MYSTERY which can’t be “solved” by man.

The circumstances of the universe, where we are free to exercise our free will as we can and will within the environment, determines all our moment to moment circumstances,… one of those circumstances being our physical death.

But,… God’s omnipotent controlling hand is always directing things so that what actually happens at any instant in time is His will.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
What frustrates me is that people think that God wills every minute detail of our lives. For example, is it God’s will that I type this message? I don’t think that God is a micromanager that wills what side of the bed we get up on or wills whether or not we type a message in an internet forum. I think he has an overall plan/purpose for us and that plan/purpose is his will, but I don’t think he cares about the small stuff.
 
pprimeau1976 said:
What frustrates me is that people think that God wills every minute detail of our lives. For example, is it God’s will that I type this message? I don’t think that God is a micromanager that wills what side of the bed we get up on or wills whether or not we type a message in an internet forum. I think he has an overall plan/purpose for us and that plan/purpose is his will, but I don’t think he cares about the small stuff.
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Perhaps it would be helpful to make a distinction between passive and active willing, just as there are sins of commission or omission. (Not saying God sins, just making an analogy in the passive/active senses)
 
bsdman said:
I was debating with an atheist, and somewhere along the line a good question was asked that I did not know the answer to…

Does will all our deaths? In other words, did God call all the people who died in the 9/11 attacks to Heaven (for example), or is it a matter of coincidence and misfortune when we die young?

My guess is that God KNOWS when we will all die, and He will not reveal this to anyone. He does not call for us to Heaven, but we must be prepared for Heaven (final judgement, anyways) at any time.

Is there an official dogma, doctrine, teaching, opinion on this?
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Sin brought death into the world.

Sin is the rejection of God.

God does not will His rejection.

Therefore God does not will death.
 
Teflon93 said:
Sin brought death into the world.

Sin is the rejection of God.

God does not will His rejection.

Therefore God does not will death.
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My son breaks a lamp.
Breaking a lamp is the rejection of my authority.
I do not will that rejection.
Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding).

Where, thereby, did the punishment come from? I am certain my son didn’t will it.
 
jpusateri said:
My son breaks a lamp.
Breaking a lamp is the rejection of my authority.
I do not will that rejection.
Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding).

Where, thereby, did the punishment come from? I am certain my son didn’t will it.
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Good point. Is death punishment?
 
jpusateri said:
Adam and eve would have thought so.

God chastises for our betterment as any good father would.
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True, but death is also a reward, in that one must die in this world to gain the next, right?

Damnation and death are not quite synonymous, I don’t think; had there been no Fall all would have been in heaven on Earth, would we not?
 
#14 jpusateri said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teflon93 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Sin brought death into the world.

Sin is the rejection of God.

God does not will His rejection.

Therefore God does not will death.*

My son breaks a lamp.
Breaking a lamp is the rejection of my authority.
I do not will that rejection.
Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding).

Where, thereby, did the punishment come from? I am certain my son didn’t will it.
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You DO will his punishment.

If you don’t will his punishment, and he is still punished, who punishes him?

Your son DID will the rejection of your authority, and by YOUR RULES (apparently) punishment is the “wages” of rejecting your authority.

So, is your “analogy” incorrectly worded, or under what rationale to say, “Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding)”…?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
Keikiolu said:
You DO will his punishment.

If you don’t will his punishment, and he is still punished, who punishes him?

Your son DID will the rejection of your authority, and by YOUR RULES (apparently) punishment is the “wages” of rejecting your authority.

So, is your “analogy” incorrectly worded, or under what rationale to say, “Therefore I do not will his punishment (grounding)”…?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
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That is an excellent point I missed. The only hole I see in it is original sin, which resulted in our mortality, but which we personally did not will.

It’s a distinction without a difference, given how few of us remain without sin after baptism removes original sin.
 
Teflon93 said:
True, but death is also a reward, in that one must die in this world to gain the next, right?

Damnation and death are not quite synonymous, I don’t think; had there been no Fall all would have been in heaven on Earth, would we not?
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Death is the reward? I would argue that living in union with the Divine is the reward.

Adam and Eve rejected even living in the same garden with the Lord. So God let them have what they wanted. Separation from Him which leads to death. Now death must be overcome. Christ overcame death for those who are in HIM.

This leads back to union. We are to abide in Christ in order to share his close relationship to God.
 
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