Does Gun Control Prevent Gun Crime?

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I think it is safe, overall. Why do I want to own a gun? Because all it takes is one time for it not to be.

So yes - I need a gun to kill someone before they hurt or kill me. I do feel powerful in that I am able to protect myself and others.

I pray that NEVER happens though - just as I pray never to need my smoke alarm or fire extinguisher.

(Edited for typo)
Hosemonkey, I personally shudder at your logic.
I am not going to go on and respond further to this argument about gun ownership. You want guns keep them. Keep also the consequences. As you seem them regularly. I am really happy where I am, and if indeed that “one time came” and I couldnt defend myself, I would hope that I went straight to the Lord.
So cheers.
Grace Angel.
 
Sorry and you wont change your mind until someone from your family is lost violently, then perhaps you might see that guns actually kill, even loved ones.
Grace Angel.
Sorry Grace Angel, But guns DON’T kill, People DO! And in America when they OUTLAW guns, only the OUTLAWS will have guns! (speaking as a retired peace officer).
Also, I will not bad mouth you or your country, I love your country, but I do love the USA more.:o

God bless!
 
I just wonder how one is supposed to fulfill one’s duty without a gun? If guns are only supposed to be with the militia, how is one supposed to throw off the Government?
The Declaration of Independence
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Gun control prevents law abiding citizens with defending themselves against criminals who do not follow laws in the first place. It also would make it impossible for US citizens to fulfill their right and their duty.
 
I am always shocked that anyone could be so mis-informed by the media that they would use Australia’s gun ban as proof that gun control works. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The “International Crime Victims Survey” (released in 2000) was the first to conduct an examination of the affect that the Austrailian bans had. They found, among other facts, that:
  1. Overall crime victimization in Australia rose from 27.8 percent of the population in 1988, to 28.6 percent in 1991 to over 30 percent in 1999.
  2. Australia led the ICVS report in three of four categories – burglary (3.9 percent of the population), violent crime (4.1 percent) and overall victimization (about 31 percent). Australia was second to England in auto theft (2.1 percent). “Led the report” means they were the worst in the civilized world in those categories.
  3. Armed robberies increased 45 percent. In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides increased nearly 300 percent. In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily. There has been an increase in nearly every violent crime statistic since the bans went into effect.
  4. Countrywide, homicides were up 3.2 percent. Assaults were up 8.6 percent.
Austrailia shows us exactly what England does. That gun control is the best friend criminals have and is reckless endangerment of the citizens. In the U.S. there are an average of 1.5 million crimes foiled every year by citizens with their own private arms and in over 99% of those instances no one is hurt. I would not trade that for all of the false security in Australia, England, or the world.
Perhaps you should look at the actual Australian crime statistics before regurgitating pro-gun propaganda.

breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html
 
Perhaps you should look at the actual Australian crime statistics before regurgitating pro-gun propaganda.

breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html
Thanks old mate from WA I stopped posting under this thread because it became meanspirited. I am reminded of the saying “for those who believe no proof is necessary for those who dont no proof is possible”
I guess you gotta live here (Oz) to understand.
GraceAngel.
 
So Larry the answer to slow police, is weaponry and beaing armed. Imagine if you had been a hot head and armed what might have happened in those events. (unless it did of course happen).
Grace Angel.
I can’t think of a better answer, because assuming the perpetrator was armed (or tougher than me), then it wouldn’t matter whether or not I was a hothead. What would matter is whether or not he was.
 
We’ve all been talking about how guns play a role in crime reduction in Australia vs. America. Maybe this isn’t the thread for this question, but I think it is related.

Does Australia allow prayer in schools? How about the violent TV/movie/video game/music situation? Is abortion legal? I’d appreciate knowing this aspect of your situation vs. ours.
 
We’ve all been talking about how guns play a role in crime reduction in Australia vs. America. Maybe this isn’t the thread for this question, but I think it is related.

Does Australia allow prayer in schools? How about the violent TV/movie/video game/music situation? Is abortion legal? I’d appreciate knowing this aspect of your situation vs. ours.
Goodnite Larry maybe tomorrow afternoon. Its 10.41pm here in oz land and I am exhausted.
Have a good day and God Bless
Grace Angel.
 
I think it is safe, overall. Why do I want to own a gun? Because all it takes is one time for it not to be.

So yes - I need a gun to kill someone before they hurt or kill me. I do feel powerful in that I am able to protect myself and others.

I pray that NEVER happens though - just as I pray never to need my smoke alarm or fire extinguisher.

(Edited for typo)
“Austrailia shows us exactly what England does. That gun control is the best friend criminals have and is reckless endangerment of the citizens. In the U.S. there are an average of 1.5 million crimes foiled every year by citizens with their own private arms and in over 99% of those instances no one is hurt. I would not trade that for all of the false security in Australia, England, or the world.”

What will your justification be if someone kills ten or twelve people with a car, as happened in Los Angeles a few years ago? Will you ban cars in response. Or someone running amok with a knife, as happened in New York City? There will always be nutjobs who will defy all the odds and commit a horrible crime. Guns are tools, no more, no less. In America we have constitutional rights, the possession of firearms being just one. That’s the way it is here. If firearms confiscation works for you, fine. Doesn’t work for us. I’d rather have a firearm and not need it, than need it and not have it. My last thoughts on the subject. Peace.
 
Hosemonkey, I personally shudder at your logic.
I am not going to go on and respond further to this argument about gun ownership. You want guns keep them. Keep also the consequences. As you seem them regularly. I am really happy where I am, and if indeed that “one time came” and I couldnt defend myself, I would hope that I went straight to the Lord.
So cheers.
Grace Angel.
Grace Angel,

Please slow down - you are not shuddering at hosemonkey’s logic, but at mine.

I’m not sure why logic is ever something to be shuddered at? Our faith teaches to embrace reason. Perhaps you can point out something that you disagree with? Perhaps it is an assumption of mine?

I respect your belief that you would not defend yourself, but submit to God’s will. Have you ever heard the one about the farmer, the flood and the rescue personnel? If not - it’s a short joke and one that would give you a better insight into the basic perspective of others. Or at least MY perspective!

Two final questions - with a different take on the matter…
  1. A knife brandishing guy is in a playground holding 2 or 3 children at bay. From all appearances, the guy is strong out on some strong drugs. You’ve seen these sort on TV - perhaps on PCP, and taking 5 beefy cops to subdue them.
Assuming that you’re a good shot, and the situation is starting to get even moe out of control.

Are you still ok with ‘submitting to God’s will’? Allowing the children to possibly be slaughtered while you cower?

FWIW - I’m a good shot naturally. I’ve known a lot of gun owners and a lot of police. The gun owners go to the range for fun, not because they need to qualify for their job. Read that however you would.
  1. You here a commotion next door. You see your elderly neighbor being beaten by a youthful, strong thug. You do what?
In my state (controlled by an anti-gun city population-wise), seld-defense is allowable if you are witness to a violent felony being carried out. So my neighbor would be covered.

From your screen name, I take it you’re a ‘she’. One area that women neglect to take into consideration is that women (and many men) are not in danger just from attackers equiped with firearms, but even from unarmed attackers, and mulitple attackers.

Pax Tecum, Sister Grace Angel,

(Ms.) Sheeniac
 
In America we have constitutional rights, the possession of firearms being just one. That’s the way it is here. If firearms confiscation works for you, fine. Doesn’t work for us. I’d rather have a firearm and not need it, than need it and not have it. My last thoughts on the subject. Peace.
Hosemonkey -

ACK! I’ve been wounded by friendly fire. My analogies are the same as yours.

Might I suggest, in loving charity, that to bridge the gap between the US and other cultures, that you might start referring to const. rights as ‘god-given rights recognized in the Const.’. While we Americans understand the shorthand, many others don’t. (One could make the point that our anti-gun fellow citizens really have no clue, but that’s a discussion for another day.)

Indeed, the BOR is actually a set of restrictions on the power of the government in order to protect us from them trampling on the rights inherent to us as God’s creatures.
 
Hosemonkey -

ACK! I’ve been wounded by friendly fire. My analogies are the same as yours.

Might I suggest, in loving charity, that to bridge the gap between the US and other cultures, that you might start referring to const. rights as ‘god-given rights recognized in the Const.’. While we Americans understand the shorthand, many others don’t. (One could make the point that our anti-gun fellow citizens really have no clue, but that’s a discussion for another day.)

Indeed, the BOR is actually a set of restrictions on the power of the government in order to protect us from them trampling on the rights inherent to us as God’s creatures.
Agreed!👍 We have heard all sorts of arguments to the effect that a body of armed citizens would be powerless against a trained, professional force. We poor, underarmed farmers did a pretty good job against King George’s army of professionals and mercenaries. It took a long time and many of us died, but we beat all the odds to become a free nation. I and countless others have spilled our blood to preserve these rights that were won so hard. It pains me to know that there are those who would give any of them up without a fight. It is NOT all about guns, it IS all about not giving an inch on the Constitution. Thanks for your support.
 
Thanks old mate from WA I stopped posting under this thread because it became meanspirited. I am reminded of the saying “for those who believe no proof is necessary for those who dont no proof is possible”
I guess you gotta live here (Oz) to understand.
GraceAngel.
True. And you gotta live here to understand the problem.
 
Perhaps you should look at the actual Australian crime statistics before regurgitating pro-gun propaganda.
breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html
Perhaps you should have done the math before trusting anti-gun propaganda. This is a quote from your source: “Actual figures from the ABS do show an increase in armed robbery from 1995 (5258) to 1996 (6256) to 1997 (9054) to 1998 (10850), but the proportion of firearms used to commit armed robbery has continued to decline over this period.” The article then gives the percentages of armed robberies where a gun was used: 27.8% in '95 down to only 17.6% in '98.

Here is what your statistics show:
  • armed robberies increased 106% in four years
  • **number **of armed robberies where a gun is used **increased **by 30%: 1,909 in '98 (1085017.6%) vs 1,461 in '95 (525827.8%).
You ought to be concerned that your source can put these numbers in a positive light only by deceiving you about what they mean. Australia has experienced a skyrocketing increase in armed robberies and adherants are claiming gun restrictions have been successful - because the incidence of robberies with guns is increasing at a slower pace (30% vs 106%) than robberies as a whole. That is a strange definition of success.

Ender
 
Perhaps you should have done the math before trusting anti-gun propaganda. This is a quote from your source: “Actual figures from the ABS do show an increase in armed robbery from 1995 (5258) to 1996 (6256) to 1997 (9054) to 1998 (10850), but the proportion of firearms used to commit armed robbery has continued to decline over this period.” The article then gives the percentages of armed robberies where a gun was used: 27.8% in '95 down to only 17.6% in '98.

Here is what your statistics show:
  • armed robberies increased 106% in four years
  • **number **of armed robberies where a gun is used **increased **by 30%: 1,909 in '98 (1085017.6%) vs 1,461 in '95 (525827.8%).
Ender
This is the problem with looking at statistics without taking other factors into account. International statistics show that the majority of firearms related offences are committed in urban areas, therefore an increase in urban population will naturally lead to an increase in armed robbery and related offences.

The Australian Bureau of Statistics shows a rate of urbanization within Australia of around 5%. The urban population went from 15.9m (1995) to 19.2m (1998). Australia also experienced national population growth of 2% during that period, this gives a population increase of 10% from 95 to 98. Population growth in urban areas alone would account for a 26% Increase in firearms related robberies.

This is but one variable of many hundreds. No credible statistician would calculate crime statistics based purely on their numerical value.
 
No credible statistician would calculate crime statistics based purely on their numerical value.
Perhaps so, but your claim loses some credibility when you make it only after discovering that the statistics you earlier cited turned out not to support your position. Nor does this answer my charge that the source you cited presented its statistics in such a way as to deceive people about what was really happening regarding crime in Australia.

I don’t have the inclination to investigate the urban growth in Australia for the decades before and after passage of their gun control laws and compare it to the armed robbery statistics over the same period, but it’s hard to conceive of many rational explanations for a 106% increase in four years.

Ender
 
Perhaps so, but your claim loses some credibility when you make it only after discovering that the statistics you earlier cited turned out not to support your position. Nor does this answer my charge that the source you cited presented its statistics in such a way as to deceive people about what was really happening regarding crime in Australia.

I don’t have the inclination to investigate the urban growth in Australia for the decades before and after passage of their gun control laws and compare it to the armed robbery statistics over the same period, but it’s hard to conceive of many rational explanations for a 106% increase in four years.

Ender
If I remember correctly there were still a number of statistics within your source that were not only deceptive, but downright false. I think it would fair to say that both our sources where were designed for shock value.

All I can say is that that trend (a decreasing percentage of firearms involved in armed robberies) continued to drop after the dates given, and is now well below levels prior to gun control. Yes, it would be fair to say that initially there was a spike in firearms offences (not that any relation can be assumed) but ten years on it is clear that the legislation, at least in our case, has worked.
 
Agreed!👍 We have heard all sorts of arguments to the effect that a body of armed citizens would be powerless against a trained, professional force. We poor, underarmed farmers did a pretty good job against King George’s army of professionals and mercenaries. It took a long time and many of us died, but we beat all the odds to become a free nation. I and countless others have spilled our blood to preserve these rights that were won so hard. It pains me to know that there are those who would give any of them up without a fight. It is NOT all about guns, it IS all about not giving an inch on the Constitution. Thanks for your support.
Hosemonkey and Sheeniac:

It is also well known that one reason Hitler and the Nazies didn’t invade England is that, unlike the other countries the Nazies conquered, ordinary British citizens possessed firearms and knew how to use them. This meant that, not only did the Nazies have to worry about the ramnants of the British Army, Royal Air force and the Royal Navy (which was still virtually untouched), they had to worry about outraged British citizens shooting German soldiers in the hedgerows, streets and alleyways and wherever else they had the opportunity.

The men who founded America knew that something like that could happen in any country, and they created the 2nd Amendment as insurance for ours.

Add that to Professor John Lott’s study of the effects of Concealed-Carry Laws on violent crime in all 50 of the Unite States based on 10 years of Department of Justice figures published in 1998 by the Clinton Administration, and you have two pretty convincing arguments for allowing trained citizens to kepp and bear arms.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
This is the problem with looking at statistics without taking other factors into account. International statistics show that the majority of firearms related offences are committed in urban areas, therefore an increase in urban population will naturally lead to an increase in armed robbery and related offences.

The Australian Bureau of Statistics shows a rate of urbanization within Australia of around 5%. The urban population went from 15.9m (1995) to 19.2m (1998). Australia also experienced national population growth of 2% during that period, this gives a population increase of 10% from 95 to 98. Population growth in urban areas alone would account for a 26% Increase in firearms related robberies.

This is but one variable of many hundreds. No credible statistician would calculate crime statistics based purely on their numerical value.
Levi86,

How can you say that something worked when it not only hasn’t done what the people who promoted it and managed to get it passed repeatedly said it was going to do, but has done the exact opposite?

Among the intervening variables you didn’t account for when you referred to the growth in Urban Population worldwide, one is very notable… Gun-Control Laws are almost always most strict and usually most strictly enforced in Urban Areas, meaning that Law-Abiding citizens in those areas have the least access to guns with which to fight back against criminals who are usually armed to the teeth.

At the same time, the Rate of Urbanization you cited could not begin to account for the increase in all types of Violent Crime in Australia. The fact that it’s begun to slow down is only proof that the criminals committing the crimes are going to jail and, if your interpretation of the statistics is correct, that the crime rate in Australia is beginning to reach a new equilibrium at dramatically much higher levels than ever before. Do you really want to call living with a much higher rate of violent crime “success”?

I wouldn’t - Not if people I loved and cared about had to live with the increased danger of getting mugged, raped, robbed or murdered.

And, How do you account for the increase in all types of Violent Crime in the U.K. since the U.K. passed it’s own Gun-Ban some 5 years ago? Or, the Fact that Switzerland, where all able bodied males have been issued Military Assault Rifles (the real things - fully automatic rifles), and the rest of the citizens have Sub-machine Guns and Pistols, has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world (and the lowest in Europe outside of the Vatican)?

IOW, Gun Control and Gun Bans feel good and seem like caring and compassionate things to do, but they cause more harm than good. Since the old adage is, “First, do no harm,” Shouldn’t we reconsider whether those are such good ideas? Esp., If we are entrusted with the safety of others?

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
Levi86,
How can you say that something worked when it not only hasn’t done what the people who promoted it and managed to get it passed repeatedly said it was going to do, but has done the exact opposite?
It has, its just taken some time (post #17), isn’t your president always saying “we cant put timetables on success”?
At the same time, the Rate of Urbanization you cited could not begin to account for the increase in all types of Violent Crime in Australia.
Perhaps, but nor does an increase in general armed robbery or violent crimes relate to a lack of firearms. I cannot think of a single reason why a lack of firearms would result in an increase in violent crime (keeping in mind that Australian law has never allowed for personal concealment of weapons). And this is really to crux of the issue, there can be no relation drawn between gun control and crime not involving firearms. To compare to entirely different categories is illogical.
And, How do you account for the increase in all types of Violent Crime in the U.K. since the U.K. passed it’s own Gun-Ban some 5 years ago? Or, the Fact that Switzerland, where all able bodied males have been issued Military Assault Rifles (the real things - fully automatic rifles), and the rest of the citizens have Sub-machine Guns and Pistols, has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world (and the lowest in Europe outside of the Vatican)?
I completely agree. I have simply been attempting to convey the success that gun control has had in Australia, each country is different.
 
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