Does Heaven have Free Will?

[Dolphin]

Problematic that we name someone a Saint and then find out they rejected God and are now in hell. Thus the shifting between the two can’t happen. But it confuses me as to why it can’t if it did for angels

 

[White_Tree]

Thus the shifting between the two can’t happen.

Why not?

God made an “everlasting” covenant with Israel:

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. – Jeremiah 32:40

And then Jesus came and said,

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. – Matthew 21:43

God seems to be willing to revoke or change “everlasting” things when circumstances require it.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Yes there is free will in Heaven, no we cannot sin. The way I try to explain it is this.

A perfected will has within it the capacity to choose against God if and only if an external influence leads it to sin and it chooses to give in to that temptation. Eve’s perfect will was tempted by the devil, she chose to give in and sin. The temptation did not come from within her, it was external. Mary was likely tempted throughout her life by the world around her. She chose to follow God and deny the temptation. The temptation was external to her, and she rejected it.

In Heaven, the elect are eternally separated from all evil. There is no factor there that can tempt the saved. Therefore, while the potential to sin still exists within the soul insofar as free will remains intact, there will never be a situation where that soul can be tempted, and therefore there will never be a situation where it feels inclined towards sin.

Right now we deal with concupiscence, the inbuilt inclination towards sin. That’s gone in Heaven. There will be nothing within us that wants us to sin, we will exist wholly aligned with God’s will.

 

[Elf01]

The way I see it is, in reality sin is a disgusting, ugly thing. On earth it can disguise itself and we can be fooled. In heaven we will see it for what it is and won’t be attracted to it.

I have used the analogy of your favourite meal vs horrible, rotten food. Your choice is free, but you will choose the good.

 

[goout]

Problematic that we name someone a Saint and then find out they rejected God and are now in hell. Thus the shifting between the two can’t happen. But it confuses me as to why it can’t if it did for angels

Is your mind made up? It seems so, as you are rejecting anything that clarifies the issue.
You will have to find out then, someday sometime.
Don’t drag your baggage into heaven with you. The jail cell door is open. Rush out of it and embrace the freedom. And don’t look back for all the hypothetical “what ifs”.

 

[Dolphin]

I am so confused. How is it possible ST. THOMAS AQUINAS or any other SAINT can be in hell? I thought once you get into Heaven you can’t leave.

 

[Lunam_Meam]

Is there free will in heaven? But since no sin can be in Heaven, then I don’t see how free will is in Heaven.

Yes. Consider, Satan, when he dwelled in Heaven, and was called Lucifer, and chose to sin against the Holy Spirit, and rebel. We see he was allowed a free will in Heaven, but because he used it to sin, he was cast out.

 

[goout]

I am so confused. How is it possible ST. THOMAS AQUINAS or any other SAINT can be in hell? I thought once you get into Heaven you can’t leave.

?
I don’t know how you are connecting all these dots.
You have a lot of information and guidance here. It’s up to you to be receptive or to insist on your own understandings.

 

[Dolphin]

So then can a Saint use their free will and sin and be kicked out of heaven?

 

[Dolphin]

I said it’s problematic to suggest someone can leave Heaven because then why have saints. Then you asked what was problematic about that (which to me seemed like you think saints can leave Heaven) … thus my confusion

 

[Lunam_Meam]

So then can a Saint use their free will and sin and be kicked out of heaven?

Evil is a force that originated by itself like certain monstrous diseases in the most wholesome body. Lucifer was an angel, the most beautiful of all the angels, a perfect spirit, inferior only to God, and yet in his bright essence a vapor of pride arose, and using his free will, he chose to not scatter it. On the contrary, he condensed it by brooding over it, and evil was born of this incubation. It existed before man. God hurled him out of paradise, the cursed incubator of evil, who had desecrated paradise, but he is the eternal incubator of evil, and as he can no longer soil paradise, he has soiled the earth.

 

[stpurl]

Infinity is not ‘thousands of years’. It’s an eternal now.
And those sins weren’t ‘over and done with’ at point X of time and then ‘years and years later’ regretted.

A person is in hell (freely chosen) because that person at death was in a state of unrepentant mortal sin (by definition grave matter, full knowledge, full consent) and refused God’s salvation. Once ‘time’ stops and infinity begins whatever one ‘is’ (and sin is a matter of the soul as well as the body), the sin is continually being committed throughout all eternity/infinity.

Infinite mortal sin, infinitely not repented, infinite choice of hell.

 

[Gorgias]

Therefore, isn’t free will restricted (even if perhaps voluntarily) when in Heaven because sin cannot be committed?

No. In heaven, our will is perfected; we are completely in tune with God. God does not commit sin; therefore, neither do the saints in heaven.

That doesn’t mean that they aren’t choosing the good – it just means that they’ve reached a point at which their free will choice will always be good.

 

[Gorgias]

Problematic that we name someone a Saint and then find out they rejected God and are now in hell.

“God offers complete freedom to those in heaven” doesn’t imply that “they use that complete freedom to reject him.”

it confuses me as to why it can’t if it did for angels

Because angels are not humans. They don’t vacillate between opposites. They have free will, but they expressed it exactly one time: either for God or against God. The former are the angels, and the latter are the devil and the demons.

We’re different. We don’t have infused knowledge; we learn (and forget). We are physical creatures, and we ratiocinate. That means that we can make mistakes and then learn from them and attempt to do better (or just stick with the bad stuff, if we wish).

Once we’re in heaven, though? No “shifting”, just like there’s no “shifting” for angels.

Then you asked what was problematic about that (which to me seemed like you think saints can leave Heaven) … thus my confusion

He’s not saying that “saints can leave heaven” in a way that means “… and they will”. He means “they have the ability to make free will choices.” But, like Paul Newman famously quipped, “why go out for hamburgers when I have steak at home?”

 

[Dolphin]

Would this also mean infinite (unfulfilling) pleasure for people in hell then?

 

[Dolphin]

Sometimes you are in the mood for hamburgers? I see what you mean though lol. Honestly that makes a lot of sense

 

[stpurl]

No. Where on earth would you get that from?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

A saved person cannot later be damned.

 

[Inquiry]

Terry Pratchett handled this idea incredibly well in Night Watch when he was discussing the Many Worlds theory (or the Trousers of Time, as he put it).

Perhaps there is a different universe for every possible choice

Spoiler

Sam Vimes

could have made. A universe where he had coffee, a universe where he didn’t. A universe where he gave into his alcoholism. A universe where he didn’t. A universe where he killed his wife…

No, in all the multiverse there is no reality where he killed his wife. This is not because of the lack of free will but because of its presence. A

Spoiler

Sam Vimes

with free will would never kill his wife. He couldn’t do that and still be

Spoiler

Sam Vimes

. He has the capacity to, but not the nature.

Those in Heaven have the capacity to sin, but it is no longer in their own chosen nature.

 

[Gorgias]

Dolphin:

I thought once you get into Heaven you can’t leave.

Yes. As many before me mentioned: Saints (so just saved people, safely residing in Heaven) cannot be ‘kicked out’ from Heaven or ‘be damned after being saved’.

After all, it’s not the Hotel California…