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reccanboy
Guest
Why should I trust your interpretation of the historical documents that lead to your belief in Catholicism?
- Status
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reccanboy
Guest
Why does the author of Hebrews state that a sacrifice which perfects individuals shouldn’t be applied to cleanse sin more than once, or else it becomes repetitive, and thus worthless?
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wanner47
Guest
It’s not my interpretation, but that of the Catholic Church’s.
What evidence can you provide to convince me that you are a more reliable interpreter of Scripture than the Catholic Church?
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NHInsider
Guest
Where do you find that statement?
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sing4joy
Guest
Well, but, people sin again. May I suggest you read Scott Hahn on the Mass; better yet, he has a cd called Understanding the Holy Eucharist that addresses** exactly **what you are asking. You can get it in the $3 CD section at www.saintjoe.com. I listen to his CD’s often.
The Mass is the re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice, unbloody, and Jesus is not suffering He has already suffered, died, rose and is in heaven in glory. If I am understanding your use of “propitiatory sacrifice” correctly, then I think that your supposition is in error.
sing4joy:twocents:
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rocketrob
Guest
This seems to be a ‘straw man’ argument based on a misunderstanding of both the book of Hebrews and the Sacrament of the Eucharist. It seems as if a ‘once saved always saved’ sort of idea is incorrectly being applied to the Eucharist.
As human beings, we are not perfected until we experience our own death and resurrection. Though we receive God’s grace through the sacraments and are turned back toward him, the consequences original sin “…persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.” (CCC 405)
The Catholic Church teaches that frequent and repeated participation in the Eucharist is beneficial to the process of our ultimate perfection, but not that it perfects us in a single sitting, or meal so to speak:
In addition, as has been stated, there are many aspects to the Eucharist. Besides its life giving nourishment, it is also a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Lord as well as a memorial of Christ’s passover (CCC 1407 & 1409).
Finally, if all this is not enough, Christ Himself said to repeatedly participate in the sacrament:
rocketrob
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StPeterCanisius
Guest
Lets Get Back To The Original Question, based on Hebrews 10:1-2 :
**If the Mass is the propitiatory sacrifice of the Lord, why hasn’t it perfected once and for all, those for whom it has been offered? **
MY ANSWER:
The Mass is God’s contruction for humans to be present at the One sacrfice of Christ. If humans were not limited by space and time, then we could all have gone to cross and stood at its foot with Mary, John and the other women. However, God knows we cannot do that, so instead of God expecting us to go to it, he gave us the Mass, so that it could be present to us. God invented the Mass so that All humans, in whatever time or geographical place that they live in, can be present at the One and Only sacrifice of Christ. In Hebrews it says that this sacrfice was made once, AND FOR ALL. The Mass truly enables the one sacrifice to be physically present for all. It is through the Mass, that we become present at the foot of the Cross.
Even if people have not sinned, they still go to Mass, as they just want to be with Jesus at the time of his sacrifice. They go again and again, because, they just want to be with him and share in his life and salvation of all. Imagine that you had a child that suffered in hospital, you would use whatever time you could to be with him. Although he only suffered from one accident, and was in hospital only once, you would want to go and visit as many times as you could. Likewise, catholics visit the Mass whenever they can, even though it is only one event, just because they want to be with Jesus- but also pefect their imperfectness, as mentioned before.
**If the Mass is the propitiatory sacrifice of the Lord, why hasn’t it perfected once and for all, those for whom it has been offered? **
MY ANSWER:
- It is not that sacrifice of Christ that is lacking, but that it is us as humans: we are lacking. As you may agree, God presents us with his saving justice, truth and glory, but it is up to us to accept it, and we never do this perfectly, and God never forces himself on us, even if it were to make us perfect. Due to the affects of sin, we often turn from God and thus never truly accepted Jesus and gave him full reign over us.
The Mass is God’s contruction for humans to be present at the One sacrfice of Christ. If humans were not limited by space and time, then we could all have gone to cross and stood at its foot with Mary, John and the other women. However, God knows we cannot do that, so instead of God expecting us to go to it, he gave us the Mass, so that it could be present to us. God invented the Mass so that All humans, in whatever time or geographical place that they live in, can be present at the One and Only sacrifice of Christ. In Hebrews it says that this sacrfice was made once, AND FOR ALL. The Mass truly enables the one sacrifice to be physically present for all. It is through the Mass, that we become present at the foot of the Cross.
Even if people have not sinned, they still go to Mass, as they just want to be with Jesus at the time of his sacrifice. They go again and again, because, they just want to be with him and share in his life and salvation of all. Imagine that you had a child that suffered in hospital, you would use whatever time you could to be with him. Although he only suffered from one accident, and was in hospital only once, you would want to go and visit as many times as you could. Likewise, catholics visit the Mass whenever they can, even though it is only one event, just because they want to be with Jesus- but also pefect their imperfectness, as mentioned before.
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Danno2281
Guest
There is a tremendously important prophecy that seems to have been overlooked in considering the Sacrifice of the Mass - Mal. 1:11 . “For from the rising of the sun even to the setting thereof (East to West perhaps) there is a sacrifice offered, a pure oblation offered to My Name in every place, for My Name is great amont the Gentiles.”
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sing4joy
Guest
Because there is no longer any need for a sacrifice for sin, Jesus having become the true Passover. He is NOT being sacrificed at every Mass, we are re-presenting his sacrifice and again receiving his Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity into ourselves. Each time we receive the Holy Eucharist, we become a little more like Jesus.
The end has come to the bloody sacrifices at the Temple; Jesus has fulfilled all those needs. It takes time for people to grow into the likeness of Christ, and God the Father won’t make anyone do it. We choose to by receiving the Eucharist. It’s like the song:
I want more of Jesus
More and more and more
I want more of Jesus than I ever had before
I want more of His great love
Rich and full and free
I want more of Jesus
so I’ll give Him more of me.
Forgive me if this seems argumentative, it is not meant to be; what is it you are really disagreeing with, or not understanding? It seems to me there is something deeper going on and I would so like to assist you, if I can…
sing4joy
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reccanboy
Guest
I’m going to quote N.T. Wright’s translation of Hebrews 10:1-2:
“If the worshipers really had been purified, they would no longer have sin on their consciences - so they would have stopped offering sacrifices, wouldn’t they?”
Now, yet again, how does this not contradict the Catholic concept of the Mass, in which the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice must be applied to purify the believer repetitively?
“If the worshipers really had been purified, they would no longer have sin on their consciences - so they would have stopped offering sacrifices, wouldn’t they?”
Now, yet again, how does this not contradict the Catholic concept of the Mass, in which the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice must be applied to purify the believer repetitively?
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Danno2281
Guest
Considering that the scripture says (1Jn. 1:8) “if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.,” it would appear that you are looking from an insufficient perspective. Christ’s sacrifice indeed has the power totally to remit any sin; the difficuklty lies in my applying that power to my situatuion, and I apply that power through my repentence. If my repentence were perfect, my sin would be removed completely, both the guilt and the effect. But none of us is perfect and so my repentence is deficient. The story is told of the child who used swear words. He was made to drive a nail into a board every time he slipped up and used one, but he could remove one nail each day he succede in avoiding them. At length all the nails were removed from the board, **but the holes remained. ** Even though our sins be forgiven, we have consequences remaining. We have to wash our robes in His blood (Note that He does not wash our robes for us), We remain capable of sin, and scripture declares that the just man sins seven times daiIy.(Prov.24:16). This is why the Sacrifice of Calvary is made present to our beloved Father again and again, because we, at this time, need to surrender ourselves through, with, and in the crucified Christ to Him.
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sing4joy
Guest
Who is N.T. Wright?
Why should I trust that translation? 
Besides, you can’t just look at one or two verses out of context, which is what is happening in this post. Anyone who can talk about exigesis knows that.Are you really seeking? Get any of Scott Hahn’s CD’s on the Mass. He was a dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist who found, to his shock, that *Sole Scriptura *is unscriptural, as is Sole Fide. Check out saintjoe.com/products.asp?dept=53 and look at Item A5-2.
Remember that Jesus is the Lamb of God…and that title points back to the Passover…I think you are missing several dimensions of this concept by focusing on one verse taken out of context.
sing4joy
ps–since your quote is out of context, how do we know that the writer of Hebrews is not arguing for the necessity of a Messiah???
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reccanboy
Guest
Wright is only one of the best recognized biblical scholars on the planet…Who is N.T. Wright?
Are you really seeking? Get any of Scott Hahn’s CD’s on the Mass. He was a dyed-in-the-wool Calvinist who found, to his shock, that *Sole Scriptura *is unscriptural, as is Sole Fide. Check out saintjoe.com/products.asp?dept=53 and look at Item A5-2.
Remember that Jesus is the Lamb of God…and that title points back to the Passover…I think you are missing several dimensions of this concept by focusing on one verse taken out of context.
sing4joy
ps–since your quote is out of context, how do we know that the writer of Hebrews is not arguing for the necessity of a Messiah???
I’m going to quote the NIV, which is also used by Alan C. Mitchell and Daniel J. Harrington (Catholic scholars) in their commentary on Hebrews:
Hebrews 10:2 “If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.”
It is claimed that the Jews were not cleansed once for all, but Christ’s sacrifice cleanses once for all.
Now, without resorting to Scott Hahn’s CD or claiming that I’m quoting Hebrews out of context (ridiculous assertion, given that you haven’t exegetically dealt with the text in any fashion), give me a reason to believe why I can be Catholic and be cleansed once for all.
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reccanboy
Guest
Maybe I’m being too stubborn about the text, I don’t know. I’ll ponder 1 John though, it says that if we are born of God, then we can’t sin, yet I sin all the time. Thanks.
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Danno2281
Guest
John sets out an ideal, but if we look at the purpose of his letter, it is to help them not to sin, meaning that the possibility for sin still exists for the Christian, but he reminds us that should we sin still, we still retain an advocate on our behalf (2:1). We are not made perfect until we have completed the work of washing our robes in His Blood, and that is our lifetime’s work. But because we still sin, He re-presents to our Eternal Father His one efficacious sacrifice. That sacrifice is His constant advocacy on our behalf.
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rocketrob
Guest
It seems like you just keep re-stating the same argument in spite of the fact that multiple posts have addressed them. Is your concern based on the mis-conception that Christ is repeatedly sacrificed over and over at the Mass? Or is it based on the fact that Catholics participate in the Eucharist at every Mass for their own benefit, as well as for the benefit of the entire Church body?
I believe both of these ideas have been well addressed in prior posts. But if you can be more specific, perhaps it can help to move this discussion forward.
Interestingly enough, Hebrews has been the turning point for many life long protestants that has ultimately brought them into full communion with the Catholic Church…Scott Hahn included. I encourage you to keep on digging into this book of the bible…you may be surprised by the Truth that you find!
rocketrob
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SHW
Guest
You are correct.
John is not saying that Christians cannot sin or that they do not ever sin. He is saying that Christians must do their best to not sin.
He also states that if you say that you know Him (if you claim to be a Christian), but you do not keep His commandments, then you are liar and the truth is not in you.
1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What happens to all liars if they do not repent before death?
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
All liars are thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity.
Jesus’ sacrifice is a perfect, perpetual sacrifice and this is why He does not have to die again in order to cleanse us from our sins each time we repent. Jesus commanded at the Last Supper that the apostles/priests re-present His perfect sacrifice to the Father and they do this in the Mass. Jesus says that His sacrifice is for reparation/remission for our sins. The priests re-offer/re-present His perpetual sacrifice to His Father for remission of our sins. It is not a new sacrifice nor a different sacrifice. It is always the same sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, but offered in an unbloody manner under the appearances of bread and wine just as Jesus did at His Last Supper. This bread and wine at every Mass is turned into the the Body and Blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit just as it was changed into Christ’s Body and Blood at His Last Supper by the Holy Spirit. (Revelation 5) Jesus’ sacrifice is perpetual/never ending and it is re-presented to the Father every day throughout the world in the Mass.
Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down,
My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name,
And a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
This is speaking of the Mass. The priests re-present Christ’s pure offering **daily **(from the rising of the sun, even to its going down) in countries/nations throughout the world. Incense is offered to His name during some of these Masses every year.
Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed** and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins**.
1 Corinthians 11:23-32
or I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
to be continued…
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SHW
Guest
Continued:**
If we desire to inherit eternal life, then we should each judge ourselves honestly and thoroughly and do it often, to see whether we are living a Christlike life**. We need to do this in order to make sure that we do not continue to sin so that we will not be condemned to hell after we die.
A Christian must live a Christlike life in order to be saved. Many so-called Christians will not be saved.
Matthew 7:22-24
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness (commit sins/break commandments)!’ “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness (commit sins/break commandments), 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
Only those who truly love Him are saved. Only those who keep His commandments actually truly love Him. Only those who love Him (keep His commandments) inherit the crown of eternal life.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
If we desire to inherit eternal life, then we should each judge ourselves honestly and thoroughly and do it often, to see whether we are living a Christlike life**. We need to do this in order to make sure that we do not continue to sin so that we will not be condemned to hell after we die.
A Christian must live a Christlike life in order to be saved. Many so-called Christians will not be saved.
Matthew 7:22-24
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness (commit sins/break commandments)!’ “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
Matthew 13:41-42
The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness (commit sins/break commandments), 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.
Only those who truly love Him are saved. Only those who keep His commandments actually truly love Him. Only those who love Him (keep His commandments) inherit the crown of eternal life.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.
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Danno2281
Guest
You are correct.
John is not saying that Christians cannot sin or that they do not ever sin. He is saying that Christians must do their best to not sin.
He also states that if you say that you know Him (if you claim to be a Christian), but you do not keep His commandments, then you are liar and the truth is not in you.
1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
What happens to all liars if they do not repent before death?
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
All liars are thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity.
Jesus’ sacrifice is a perfect, perpetual sacrifice and this is why He does not have to die again in order to cleanse us from our sins each time we repent. Jesus commanded at the Last Supper that the apostles/priests re-present His perfect sacrifice to the Father and they do this in the Mass. Jesus says that His sacrifice is for reparation/remission for our sins. The priests re-offer/re-present His perpetual sacrifice to His Father for remission of our sins. It is not a new sacrifice nor a different sacrifice. It is always the same sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, but offered in an unbloody manner under the appearances of bread and wine just as Jesus did at His Last Supper. This bread and wine at every Mass is turned into the the Body and Blood of Christ by the Holy Spirit just as it was changed into Christ’s Body and Blood at His Last Supper by the Holy Spirit. (Revelation 5) Jesus’ sacrifice is perpetual/never ending and it is re-presented to the Father every day throughout the world in the Mass.
Malachi 1:11
For from the rising of the sun, even to its going down,
My name shall be great among the Gentiles;
In every place incense shall be offered to My name,
And a pure offering;
For My name shall be great among the nations,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
This is speaking of the Mass. The priests re-present Christ’s pure offering **daily **(from the rising of the sun, even to its going down) in countries/nations throughout the world. Incense is offered to His name during some of these Masses every year.
Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed** and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.” 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins**.
1 Corinthians 11:23-32
or I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.
27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
to be continued…
Jesus further tells us on the night He was betrayed (Jn.15:4ff) that we must abide in Him. The word abide is used in only one other place in the gospel - Jn. 6:57 -“Who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood abides in Me and I in him.” It is through the Eucharist that we abide in Him. No other solutuiion for abiding is offered.
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SHW
Guest
I’ve found that it depends on the translation. Here is another example:
1 John 2:6
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. This is not a suggestion, it is a command. We must imitate Christ in obedience to His Father. (1 Corinthians 11:1, John 5:30)
Abide means “to remain.” We must remain in Him (in Christ) until death in order to inherit eternal life.
To be “in Christ” means to obey His commandments and also to do His Father’s Will.
Ephesians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
We abide in Christ and He abides in us as long as we continue to be faithful (we must do His Father’s will and obey His commandments).
2 Corinthians 13:5
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
**If **we break His commandments and commit mortal/serious/deadly sins after we are baptized, then we disqualify ourselves (lose our inheritance) because we’ve sinned against His commandments and so we will no longer be saved unless we confess and repent before death. After we confess and repent of these deadly sins (which cause the death of sanctifying grace in the soul), then we are once again saved (receive sanctifying grace). When the Holy Spirit resides in our souls, then we have sanctifying/saving grace. If the Holy Spirit leaves our souls/temples because of our sins, then we will be damned. He will destroy us.
1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
There is no such thing as OSAS in Christianity. Salvation is a life-long process, not a one-time event. We must imitate Christ until death.
Ephesians 5:1-6
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
When we are baptized, we become children of God, His own adopted sons and daughters. But, if we sin mortal/deadly sins (some are mentioned above) and do not confess and repent before death, then we lose our inheritance (we become sons and daughters of disobedience when we fail to keep His commandments) and we are condemned to hell for eternity.
- Status