Does hell violate omnipresence?

[Pieman333272]

If hell is eternal separation from God, doesn’t that violate omnipresence? Even if it’s just a state, he is then not present with that person anyway. I don’t mortal sin would as you just aren’t enjoying a total relationship with him, not that you’re separated from him, but i can’t work over hell.

 

[po18guy]

Here’s a concept: Since God surrounds infinity, he surrounds hell, but is not present within it.

 

[JP2Admirer]

This is a question that has long haunted me and I have been unable to find an adequate answer.

God is Being. According to Aquinas, he is “magis intimum” to things, yet being is a “sui generis” accident of each and every thing. (I ascribe to existentialist Thomism).

Nonetheless, if He is Subsistent Being Itself, and all other beings are only beings by participating in His being, then His total absence would be non-being.

Thus, God must in some way be present to beings in hell as their existence.

Perhaps He is present as the “sui generis” accident, but not cognitively "visible’ by beings there?

 

[Hastrman]

This is a question that has long haunted me and I have been unable to find an adequate answer.

God is Being. According to Aquinas, he is “magis intimum” to things, yet being is a “sui generis” accident of each and every thing. (I ascribe to existentialist Thomism).

Nonetheless, if He is Subsistent Being Itself, and all other beings are only beings by participating in His being, then His total absence would be non-being.

No, it’s just…his presence, which is pure bliss to the saved, is pure misery to the damned.

In existentialist Thomism (I’m one too!), “hell” can be viewed as the condition of having chosen to be evil…so one experiences one’s own being as hateful. The “separation” or “pain of loss” is the fact that any being must still desire to know being, and its own being—but for them it’s painful and unpleasant, because of what they’ve made themselves, therefore their desire to know being must, in a sense, go unfulfilled (since they’d have to be perpetually holding back from it, since in their case it’s pure misery).

Basically hell is the ultimate, permanent, existential crisis.

 

[po18guy]

This is a question that has long haunted me and I have been unable to find an adequate answer.

God is Being. According to Aquinas, he is “magis intimum” to things, yet being is a “sui generis” accident of each and every thing. (I ascribe to existentialist Thomism).

Nonetheless, if He is Subsistent Being Itself, and all other beings are only beings by participating in His being, then His total absence would be non-being.

Thus, God must in some way be present to beings in hell as their existence.

Perhaps He is present as the “sui generis” accident, but not cognitively "visible’ by beings there?

God’s nature is being, and He cannot violate His nature. Eternal separation from God may be only a one way street, since we cannot be separated from the love of God. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man, in all of his torment, was aware not only of his own surroundings, but also of Lazarus, who was receiving his just reward of comfort. Notice that it was Abraham with whom the rich man spoke, and none of the Trinity. Just as the glorified Jesus was not perceivable to human senses - until He opened those senses to perceive (Mary of Magdala did not recognize either His appearance or His voice), so also may God actually be present, but those in hell cannot perceive Him. Conversely, there is neither love nor goodness in hell, and God, not being able too violate His nature, may indeed be absent, having created a place from which he is not absolutely prevented from being, but from which, out of justice, He absents Himself.

 

[Pieman333272]

This is a question that has long haunted me and I have been unable to find an adequate answer.

God is Being. According to Aquinas, he is “magis intimum” to things, yet being is a “sui generis” accident of each and every thing. (I ascribe to existentialist Thomism).

Nonetheless, if He is Subsistent Being Itself, and all other beings are only beings by participating in His being, then His total absence would be non-being.

Thus, God must in some way be present to beings in hell as their existence.

Perhaps He is present as the “sui generis” accident, but not cognitively "visible’ by beings there?

Hmm… perhaps, and I haven’t read Aquinas and, for the time being, don’t consider myself a thomist, it is that God keeps hell, and the souls in it, stabilized by his will, but the people there simply cannot feel God’s presence, in more ways than one would on earth.

 

[josephdaniel29]

If hell is eternal separation from God, doesn’t that violate omnipresence? Even if it’s just a state, he is then not present with that person anyway. I don’t mortal sin would as you just aren’t enjoying a total relationship with him, not that you’re separated from him, but i can’t work over hell.

No it does not. God “will be all in all”, and since God is love, His love will be present in hell just as much as it is in heaven. He loves those in hell just the same as those in heaven. The difference is those in hell have rejected God and hate Him, so the “consuming fire” of His love burns and torments them because when God is “all in all” there will be nowhere to hide from that love.

St Isaac the Syrian said…

“That those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love… It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it” - Homily 84

 

[beafedor]

I have not studied theology but I have read the Chronicles of Narnia. This question and comments remind me of “The last battle”, the last book where some of the characters die and go to Aslan’s country (or Paradise).
They go through a door, a cold night in a stable and find themselves in a fine summer day in a charming country. In chapter 13 “the dwarfs refused to be taken in”, a group of dwarfs are there with them and they don’t see the sun and the trees, they don’t feel the warmth. They complain that it is dark and cold in that stable. They are given fine food and drinks and they say that it feels/taste like rocks and still water. They refuse to believe the other characters about the place and wish to remain where they are. The dwarfs are actually sitting on the grass in the same charming country but they only see and feel what they chose for themselves.

 

[agapewarrior]

I would like to point out the fact that God is omnipotent and can do whatever pleases Him. If He decides to remove his presence from those in Hell, He does it. Our limited understanding doesn’t have to comprehend how or the why, just the what.

Edit: Basically, I’d rather not have it thought of as paradoxical. The spirit realm is simply beyond our comprehension… “if we think of natural law as anything that exists must be created and who created God” kind of questions are simply inquiries that haven’t had an answer in this life, that’s faith baby!

 

[tonyrey]

Even if we reject God it is with His power that we do so! God must be present **within us **because we are persons made in His image and likeness. He shares His power with us so that we have the capacity for love and self-determination. How else could we possibly exist, let alone be free?

God is also present in everything we consider loathsome but that does not make Him evil because evil doesn’t **exist **in the true sense of the word! Evil is simply the **negative **aspect of reality but its effects are real enough. The decision to reject God is positive but its consequences are certainly not. Isolation, frustration and alienation are all negations - although the misery and suffering they cause are unmistakably positive.

It is a mistake to equate reality with existence. God is the ultimate but not the direct Cause of everything. He is the Creator not the Destroyer. Evil is like a shadow on Creation. It is inevitable because only God is perfect in every respect. All His creatures are finite and imperfect because they can never achieve divine perfection. Even those who are made in His image can achieve only relative perfection because we are limited in our knowledge and power.

So hell does not violate omnipresence. On the contrary it is a proof of God’s infinite love! He sacrifices Himself for us in heaven as well as on earth. He accepts evil as the necessary price of Creation. The only alternative would be to create nothing - which would be a greater evil. It is a fundamental law of existence that every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. There is a price to pay for every benefit we have. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing…

 

[agapewarrior]

Even if we reject God it is with His power that we do so! God must be present **within us **because we are persons made in His image and likeness. He shares His power with us so that we have the capacity for love and self-determination. How else could we possibly exist, let alone be free?

God is also present in everything we consider loathsome but that does not make Him evil because evil doesn’t **exist **in the true sense of the word! Evil is simply the **negative **aspect of reality but its effects are real enough. The decision to reject God is positive but its consequences are certainly not. Isolation, frustration and alienation are all negations - although the misery and suffering they cause are unmistakably positive.

It is a mistake to equate reality with existence. God is the ultimate but not the direct Cause of everything. He is the Creator not the Destroyer. Evil is like a shadow on Creation. It is inevitable because only God is perfect in every respect. All His creatures are finite and imperfect because they can never achieve divine perfection. Even those who are made in His image can achieve only relative perfection because we are limited in our knowledge and power.

So hell does not violate omnipresence. On the contrary it is a proof of God’s infinite love! He sacrifices Himself for us in heaven as well as on earth. He accepts evil as the necessary price of Creation. The only alternative would be to create nothing - which would be a greater evil. It is a fundamental law of existence that every advantage has a corresponding disadvantage. There is a price to pay for every benefit we have. It is absurd to expect to have everything for nothing…

I must have missed the scripture that said God was everything, not just the creator of everything. If God was in everything… then why would we have to become saved for Him to live in us, and us in Him? God made the laws of existence, I’m pretty sure He can choose to follow or not follow whichever He so desires.

 

[tonyrey]

I must have missed the scripture that said God was everything, not just the creator of everything. If God was in everything… then why would we have to become saved for Him to live in us, and us in Him? God made the laws of existence, I’m pretty sure He can choose to follow or not follow whichever He so desires.

“to live in us, and us in Him” is quite different from sustaining our existence. God is not restricted to one mode of being present…

 

[JP2Admirer]

I must have missed the scripture that said God was everything, not just the creator of everything. If God was in everything… then why would we have to become saved for Him to live in us, and us in Him? God made the laws of existence, I’m pretty sure He can choose to follow or not follow whichever He so desires.

In Exodus God says He is “I am Who Am” which is the basis for stating that God is in all things. Not that God is all things (i.e. monism), but that He is in all things.

In Thomistic terms, we would say He is the “act of existence” of things, which is a one of a kind attribute of the thing.

Christian thinkers have long considered God as Being, and they take their cue from the passage in Exodus.

Beatitude and existence are two different things. Beatitude, for which Christ was Incarnated, is the intellectual vision of the Divine Essence. Existing is, well, “quasi habens esse,” (as if a haver of being.)

So the need for the Incarnation exists even if God is in all things.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

I doubt there is room in Hell for God and Satan together. It certainly isn’t Satan who is going to have to go!!!

 

[FCEGM]

No it does not. God “will be all in all”, and since God is love, His love will be present in hell just as much as it is in heaven. He loves those in hell just the same as those in heaven. The difference is those in hell have rejected God and hate Him, so the “consuming fire” of His love burns and torments them because when God is “all in all” there will be nowhere to hide from that love.

St Isaac the Syrian said…

“That those who are suffering in hell, are suffering in being scourged by love… It is totally false to think that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is a child of the knowledge of truth, and is unquestionably given commonly to all. But love’s power acts in two ways: it torments sinners, while at the same time it delights those who have lived in accord with it” - Homily 84

:yup:

 

[MindOverMatter2]

If hell is eternal separation from God, doesn’t that violate omnipresence? Even if it’s just a state, he is then not present with that person anyway. I don’t mortal sin would as you just aren’t enjoying a total relationship with him, not that you’re separated from him, but i can’t work over hell.

You are confusing existence with the qualitative experience of existence. For those against God, God will become hell according to their qualitative experience and relationship with God. This is not to say that God is hell, but if you hate true love and act against it, you will not experience the things that exist in true love, such as existential fulfilment. People in hell are not only experiencing hell, but rather their attitude toward God is hell. Thus you will experience the opposite of God necessarily as result of setting ones heart against God for all eternity; and hell by definition is the absence of the “experience” of true eternal love (God). I am not sure exactly what senses you will retain in hell, but the only thing you will retain for certain in hell is your eternal existence. Because God is the source of existence, God will be present in hell, but he will not experience it.

I am not sure, but this seems to me correct, or at least it shows how hell can exist in the presence of God.

 

[mangy_dog]

If hell is eternal separation from God, doesn’t that violate omnipresence? Even if it’s just a state, he is then not present with that person anyway. I don’t mortal sin would as you just aren’t enjoying a total relationship with him, not that you’re separated from him, but i can’t work over hell.

God is so merciful that He ratifies the desire of the condemned to feel separated from HIm.
This is the case with Lucifer and the apostate angels that followed him. Their desire was to be as infinitely far away from God as possible and God ratified their desire…that place is hell. A place where they can feel separate from God whom they see as the oppressor of their freedom.

 

[tonyrey]

I doubt there is room in Hell for God and Satan together. It certainly isn’t Satan who is going to have to go!!!

That gives the impression that God is pushed out of Hell! The truth is that Satan pushes himself out of God’s presence. (But humour doesn’t have to be so precise…

 

[ConstantineTG]

If hell is eternal separation from God, doesn’t that violate omnipresence? Even if it’s just a state, he is then not present with that person anyway. I don’t mortal sin would as you just aren’t enjoying a total relationship with him, not that you’re separated from him, but i can’t work over hell.

Separation doesn’t mean lack of God’s presence. God could still be there but rejected by the soul who refuses union with God. Here’s something interesting I found at our Eastern Catholic forum and over at ByzCath

Some Church Fathers, such as St. Cyprian and St. Augustine of Hippo, seemed to believe in a purification after death. However, the character of this purification is never clarified, and especially (as St. Mark of Ephesus underlined at the Council of Florence) it seems there is no true distinction between heaven, hell and the so-called purgatory: all souls partake differently in the same mystical fire (which, according to St. Isaac of Syria, is God’s Love) but because of their spiritual change they are bound to different reactions: bliss for those who are in communion with him; purification for those in the process of being deified; and remorse for those who hated God during their earthly lives. Because of this confusion and inability of the human language to understand these realities, the Church refrains from theological speculation. Instead, she affirms the unbroken Tradition of prayers for the dead, the certainty of eternal life, the rejection of reincarnation, and the communion of the Saints (those living and those who have fallen asleep in the Lord) in the same Body of Christ which is the Church. Private speculation is thus still possible as it was in the time of the Church Fathers.

So hell could really be just a soul suffering because he is surrounded and being filled by God’s love, but because the soul has rejected God there is an eternal struggle to reject God and thus God’s love becomes a source of pain for the soul who refuses Him.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

So hell could really be just a soul suffering because he is surrounded and being filled by God’s love, but because the soul has rejected God there is an eternal struggle to reject God and thus God’s love becomes a source of pain for the soul who refuses Him.

Precisely. This is the only theology of hell that conforms to Gods ontology.