Does Intelligent DEsign Belittle God?

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Although I think he takes the Church’s stance on evolution a bit too far, Father Coyne is essentially correct in his assessment of Creationism. In reading the Cardinal’s remarks, it is clear that the two men are, at best, talking past each other.

Cardinal Schönborn makes much of Pope John Paul II’s remarks from a general audience in 1985 where the Pope said:
“To all these indications of the existence of God the Creator, some oppose the power of chance or of the proper mechanisms of matter. To speak of chance for a universe which presents such a complex organization in its elements and such marvelous finality in its life would be equivalent to giving up the search for an explanation of the world as it appears to us. In fact, this would be equivalent to admitting effects without a cause. It would be to abdicate human intelligence, which would thus refuse to think and to seek a solution for its problems.” (1)
Yet, none of this is a true refutation of the so-called neo-Darwinism that the cardinal opposes. No evolutionist uses the term “chance” to describe the process of natural selection.

While it is true that by the light of human reason man can readily discern design and purpose in the natural world, this statement nowhere insists that any such conclusion would be grounded, in whole or even in part, on objectively observable phenomena. It is significant that the Pope uses philosophical terminology in his remarks as even Schönborn points out. (2)

Intelligent Design, as a scientific discipline that seeks to form an airtight argument for the existence of God, is a fundamentally flawed endeavor and proceeds from a conception of God that is, ultimately, at odds with the Church’s teaching on God and the nature of Free Will. That no man can look directly at the face of God and live implies that whatever apparatus man constructs to make the attempt (philosophical, scientific) can only bring him so far.

(1) Schönborn, Christoph. " Finding Design in Nature." New York Times. July 7, 2005. Available online at: nytimes.com/2005/07/07/opinion/07schonborn.html

(2) Ibid.
 
Please read the following article and comment.

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=18503

I’m especially concerned to know how Intelligent Design as a scientific concept could serve to belittle God.

Who is confused, the Cardinal or the Jesuit?
I’d like to see evidence in Church teaching that St. Thomas Aquinas’ teleological argument belittles God. The choice between St. Thomas and Fr. Coyne is an easy one for me.

Sadly, the fact that Fr. Coyne believes that God Himself could not know that human beings would be the product of evolution is dangerously and sinfully belittling God’s intelligence and omniscience.

But his views are consistent with evolutionary theory.
 
quoting the article
[Fr. Coyne] stresses that the theory of Intelligent Design diminishes God into “an engineer who designs systems rather than a lover.”
He sounds very anti-engineerist. 🙂

I guess engineers are incapable of loving what they create. They’re a lowly form of creature that is “diminished” apparently. “Lovers” however, are good – and not like engineers.
 
I’d like to see evidence in Church teaching that St. Thomas Aquinas’ teleological argument belittles God. The choice between St. Thomas and Fr. Coyne is an easy one for me.

Sadly, the fact that Fr. Coyne believes that God Himself could not know that human beings would be the product of evolution is dangerously and sinfully belittling God’s intelligence and omniscience.

But his views are consistent with evolutionary theory.
There is nothing in the article that suggests that Father Coyne “believes that God Himself could not know that human beings would be the product of evolution.” In fact, there is much that contradicts such a notion. Further, the Thomistic proofs for God’s existence stop short of anything that would provide definitive proof for God; those proofs only concede the existence of something, some first cause, which Aquinas then goes on to label as God.
 
I read the article. thanks. It is my sense of these matters that neither pantheism, naturalism, creationism, intelligent design, or any of these suffice as an competent whole description of evolution. As far as what considerations are proper to science, it is making its teleological way along quite nicley, all the while admiting that its propositions are ad hoc until something better comes along. Religion in general might follow suit. Both ways are engaged in exploring or explaining the Unknown, but by different methodology and for different reasons. There were so many apple/orange things going on in that article it made my head spin.
 
Somehow from the article I got the sense that there is a dispute within the Church about whether it is tactically unwise to take on the evolutionists. Father Coyne seems to say ID is unwise because it dminishes God into a Thinker rather than a Lover. I disagree. When Newton, Darwin, and Einstein talked about a superior reasoning power they were affirming two aspects of God’s nature … creation and governance.

If science argues at some point that it can point to signs of intelligent design, why in God’s name does that diminish God?

And isn’t it consistent with Scripture? Romans 1:20

“Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made.”

Who is more able to understand the “invisible attribute” of intelligent design than science?
 
Here’s my take on that. If you read things like Maurice Nicoll’s The New Man, an explanation of some of the miracles and parables of Christ, it becomes necessary to account for something that the church as we know it today simply doesn’t. It is that in the days of Jesus, there was a teaching language which was used to convey levels of meaning so as to filter the audience as to their ability to hear.

This was psychologically necessary, as we see on here that some can assimilate some forms of ideas and some can’t. Or don’t. That is normal and good. But it is why I constantly remind people of Mark 4;33,34, so that a few might think to themselves Hmmmmm… I wonder… and possibly be alerted to something that just a few might factor in, if they only were aware of it. I think there are similar passages elsewhere.

But the point is, Jesus must have, and apparently did know that particular way of speaking. Such is evident from His use of parables and from the nature of His Identitiy statements. We also know that the Jewish and other faiths at that time had both an exoteric, or public, presentation, and a hidden, or esotericly staged presentation that Jesus also had to know about. Again Mark 4:33.34.

Now it seems to me that both the structural nature of Aramaic and other Eastern toungues incorporates a certain distinct meaning for the word “I” that we here in the West don’t understand and therefore have no need of accounting for. Speaking a form of English that is a gramatically different lens for experience, and doesn’t include a translatable form of that nuance, precludes us from an understanding of God that is much more accessible, though still mostly hidden, in the East.

If it is possible after a degree of challenging one’s own prejudices as to the meaning of things in general, and of the word “I” in particular, it can be seen that there is a crucial meaning that is missed altogether in Western translations of scriptures. Remember, those already have been filtered through Greek and Latin, which also very largely miss those nuances of grammar, intent, and levels of meaning as were used in Middle Eastern teaching.

If one is capable of “getting” this meaning, the entire understanding of the Gospels can change, as does the understanding of the God-Man dynamic. Now once this new dynamic is understood, it may yet be prejudiciallly rejected by dint of habitual piety in the face of reason. And yet it works.

But the point of all this is simply that, from that nuanced understanding, all of the science/creationis/intelligent design controversy disappears because their premises are seen to be chimeric. What I’m saying is that in my opinion the controversy between the Father ad the Cardinal is yet artifical as it is based on two variants of a misunderstanding as to the Nature of Divinity.
 
Intelligent Design, as a scientific concept, need not include God. If, as Father Coyne states, science is a separate way of finding knowledge, and here, Cardinal Schoenborn agrees with him, then there is no need to mention or include God.

The nature of Information Theory simply states that the specific coded information in DNA is information that cannot arrive by chance events. The nanomachinery in the cell is interdependent and missing a part or assembling something in the wrong order leads to a loss of function or death of the cell. Human beings recognize information and only an intelligence can create information.

Now, if Father Coyne can take off his science hat for a moment, he might recall clear Church teaching that anyone using natural (i.e. non-religious) reason can detect God in nature. But, as Cardinal Schoenborn points out in his New York Times article, Finding Design in Nature, any denial of actual design in nature is ideology, not science. So Father Coyne is wrong. The Church already acknowledges actual design in nature.

The scientific community, however, cannot do so. That’s one reason the idea of panspermia was introduced in the 1970s. Alien life, perhaps brought on a comet, seeded earth. Yes, well, then this just leaves explaining where the aliens came from.

Father Coyne appears to be one of the Catholic spokesmen of choice in popular scientific magazines as well. I read an article in one where he is supportive of an ideology that is currently consistent with pro-evolutionary views. And, as clearly shown here, a vigorous defense of any non-God explanation is diligently and constantly pursued.

As Stephen Jay Gould once wrote, if evolution could be rewound, things would turn out differently. So anyone who says evolutionists don’t rely on chance are mistaken. Everything hinges on the right organism having to be in the right environment at the right time with the right mutation to get selected.

Peace,
Ed
 
I’d like to see evidence in Church teaching that St. Thomas Aquinas’ teleological argument belittles God. The choice between St. Thomas and Fr. Coyne is an easy one for me.

**Sadly, the fact that Fr. Coyne believes that God Himself could not know that human beings would be the product of evolution **is dangerously and sinfully belittling God’s intelligence and omniscience.

But his views are consistent with evolutionary theory.
quoting the article

He sounds very anti-engineerist. 🙂

I guess engineers are incapable of loving what they create. They’re a lowly form of creature that is “diminished” apparently. “Lovers” however, are good – and not like engineers.
“Pure scientists” usually look down on “applied scientists” like engineers. I know. I’m an engineer. How ironic. As an engineer, I had to use science to actually make accurate predictions - which were borne out by building the product and actually making it work. The “pure” scientists for the most part live in fantasy worlds of abstract realities. And they never have to actually make anything work (except in the paper world of theory without practice).
There is nothing in the article that suggests that Father Coyne “believes that God Himself could not know that human beings would be the product of evolution.” In fact, there is much that contradicts such a notion. Further, the Thomistic proofs for God’s existence stop short of anything that would provide definitive proof for God; those proofs only concede the existence of something, some first cause, which Aquinas then goes on to label as God.
Cardinal Schoenborn condemned Coyne in Chance or Purpose - Page 169.
“It is not only unnecessary, however, but contrary to reason , to view this grandiose path of life up to man as being an exclusively random process. When an astronomer, who is also a priest and theologian, even has the presumption to say that God himself could not know for certain that man would be the product of evolution, then nonsense has taken over completely.” The footnote associated with this paragraph reads “For example, Fr. George V. Coyne, S.J. in Der Spiegel…”
 
Yet, none of this is a true refutation of the so-called neo-Darwinism that the cardinal opposes. No evolutionist uses the term “chance” to describe the process of natural selection.
IDers don’t use the word chance to describe the process of natural selection either. It’s biologists who use the word chance to describe how mutations occur.
Intelligent Design, as a scientific discipline that seeks to form an airtight argument for the existence of God, is a fundamentally flawed endeavor…
Intelligent Design is not a discipline that seeks to form an airtight argument for the existence of God. It is a scientific discipline that seeks to find design in nature. Any leap to “God exists because I found design in nature” is an independent philosophical endeavor. The leap would be obvious to some, but is not required by intelligent design or anything else.
 
Cardinal Schoenborn condemned Coyne in Chance or Purpose - Page 169.
"It is not only unnecessary, however, but contrary to reason , to view this grandiose path of life up to man as being an exclusively random process. When an astronomer, who is also a priest and theologian, even has the presumption to say that God himself could not know for certain that man would be the product of evolution, then nonsense has taken over completely.
IDers don’t use the word chance to describe the process of natural selection either. It’s biologists who use the word chance to describe how mutations occur.

Intelligent Design is not a discipline that seeks to form an airtight argument for the existence of God. It is a scientific discipline that seeks to find design in nature. Any leap to “God exists because I found design in nature” is an independent philosophical endeavor. The leap would be obvious to some, but is not required by intelligent design or anything else.
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That the quote from Coyne is a paraphrase by Schönborn is enough to arouse suspicion in me. Especially since Schönborn once again characterizes "the path of life up to man" as an essentially random process. Again, the process of Natural Selection is emphatically *not* a "random process" and the cardinal betrays an ignorance of one of the most basic principles behind evolutionary theory by continuing to suggest that it is. In order to correctly assess Coyne's position, it would be necessary to see the original argument made by Coyne in its context. That, of course, would require a complete citation, which either the cardinal or you have declined to provide.
It seems Intelligent Design is not, as you say, “a scientific discipline that seeks to find design in nature,” but instead is self-evidently an organ for the dissemination of pure propaganda. Your very way of defining the discipline implies that one arrives first at a conclusion for which one then goes out to marshal evidence, a complete perversion of the scientific process. Where, one might ask, does one find the undesigned elements of nature necessary to make a valid comparison? What is meant by the term “design” and how is it substantially different from a subjective aesthetic? What experimental procedures has Intelligent Design proposed which could potentially disprove the theory? In the absence of such experiments, what sort of field evidence could be produced that would contradict the theory?

It seems to me that equating cold rational analysis with the human reasoning the Church refers to is flawed and diminishes the grandeur of the human person. Man’s reason is not only the cold, mechanical process of mere deduction but also embraces the passionate faculty and a certain intuition, which are both quite beyond the realm of mere science to account for. It is the rational faculty working in tandem with the passionate faculty and intuition that make the existence of God self-evident.

The most science can ever “prove” about God or design is that neither are contradicted by any evidence we can observe. We are left, therefore with the choice of Faith. Therein lies the gift of human freedom in all its wondrous and terrible implications. Therein lies the scandalous irony of a God who, in humility, declines to rub His creation’s nose in His own existence. Therein lies the awesome love, which can never be measured in a laboratory.
 
That the quote from Coyne is a paraphrase by Schönborn is enough to arouse suspicion in me.
I can’t find the article in Der Spiegel that was paraphrased by Cardinal Schoenborn but perhaps these comments and direct quotes will help put your suspicions to rest.

From a commentary by Catholic physicist, Steven Barr …
The Rev. George Coyne, S.J., director of the Vatican Observatory, has a penchant for theologically risqué statements …
One cannot have it both ways. What Coyne means by “medieval” conceptions are the doctrines of God’s omniscience and what theology calls God’s “immediate providence” over all events in the universe. These are clearly de fide teachings of the Catholic Church

Fr. Martin Hilbert writes about Fr. Coynes theological and philosophical errors here:

perfectly nor guide it to achieve his ends: hardly a philosophically and theologically neutral scientific category.

[Quoting Fr. Coyne] “we confront what we know of our origins scientifically with religious faith in God the Creator—if, that is, we take the results of modern science seriously—**it is difficult to believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient **in the sense of many of the scholastic philosophers … God lets the world be what it will be in its continuous evolution. He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves. Is such thinking adequate to preserve the special character attributed by religious thought to the emergence not only of life but also of spirit, while avoiding a crude creationism? Only a protracted dialogue will tell.”
 
I can’t find the article in Der Spiegel that was paraphrased by Cardinal Schoenborn but perhaps these comments and direct quotes will help put your suspicions to rest.

From a commentary by Catholic physicist, Steven Barr …The Rev. George Coyne, S.J., director of the Vatican Observatory, has a penchant for theologically risqué statements …
One cannot have it both ways. What Coyne means by “medieval” conceptions are the doctrines of God’s omniscience and what theology calls God’s “immediate providence” over all events in the universe. These are clearly de fide teachings of the Catholic ChurchFr. Martin Hilbert writes about Fr. Coynes theological and philosophical errors here: perfectly nor guide it to achieve his ends: hardly a philosophically and theologically neutral scientific category.
[Quoting Fr. Coyne] “we confront what we know of our origins scientifically with religious faith in God the Creator—if, that is, we take the results of modern science seriously—**it is difficult to believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient **in the sense of many of the scholastic philosophers … God lets the world be what it will be in its continuous evolution. He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves. Is such thinking adequate to preserve the special character attributed by religious thought to the emergence not only of life but also of spirit, while avoiding a crude creationism? Only a protracted dialogue will tell.”
Again, regarding Barr's argument, I find only a paraphrase from critic. Regarding the direct quote provided by Hibbert, his conclusion does not necessarily follow from Coyne's observation. It must be remembered that many scholastic philosophers embrace a Calvinistic conception of God quite alien to Catholic sensibilities. Coyne is correct to say that God does not continuously intervene since, if He did, Free Will would be compromised. Rather, it seems, God's influence and intervention occurs more as the result of invitation rather than His own initiative. In the absence of any statement by Coyne that directly refutes the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Magisterium, I remain firm in my position that there is nothing to be overly concerned about, save perhaps for the fevered imaginings of a few overly sensitive ideologues.
 
Sadly, this issue is about a power struggle and an old one. Where does true knowledge derive? Divine revelation or so-called science? God intervenes regularly and dramatically in both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus literally calms the storm, the wind and waves are calmed. This is what God can do.

But science, as the new god, must remain inviolate. It operates in a pure realm without the taint of any belief system. It will heal, it will guide, it will create more conveniences and more weapons. Some have decided, I don’t know, it appears based on a date on the calendar, that wisdom, knowledge and enlightenment somehow poured into their heads. Science, today, is the greatest ally of the anti-theist, the explanation for those who want to break the bonds of sin and just do what they want.

There is something written on the hearts of men, believer and unbeliever alike. But design must be denied because it may lead people to think of the “G” word. This while organizations like the ACLU are removing monuments placed in public buildings by men of good will.

That is the point of these discussions and always will be. Man, by himself, and without science, can detect God in nature.

Peace,
Ed
 
Sadly, this issue is about a power struggle and an old one. Where does true knowledge derive? Divine revelation or so-called science? God intervenes regularly and dramatically in both the Old and New Testaments. Jesus literally calms the storm, the wind and waves are calmed. This is what God can do.

But science, as the new god, must remain inviolate. It operates in a pure realm without the taint of any belief system. It will heal, it will guide, it will create more conveniences and more weapons. Some have decided, I don’t know, it appears based on a date on the calendar, that wisdom, knowledge and enlightenment somehow poured into their heads. Science, today, is the greatest ally of the anti-theist, the explanation for those who want to break the bonds of sin and just do what they want.

There is something written on the hearts of men, believer and unbeliever alike. But design must be denied because it may lead people to think of the “G” word. This while organizations like the ACLU are removing monuments placed in public buildings by men of good will.

That is the point of these discussions and always will be. Man, by himself, and without science, can detect God in nature.

Peace,
Ed
That an atheist may try to use science to prove his beliefs is just as misguided and laughable as that a theist might try to do the same thing. It's like using a set of scales to measure the temperature of a room. Wrong tool for the job.
 
It is not laughable to watch the global marketing campaign for atheism. The elite press embrace paganism and hedonism. “Man created God” appears on the sides of buses. Billboards tell people to stop worrying and enjoy life.

Intelligent design might upset the apple cart. This must not be allowed to happen. For if one could point to a designer, the thoughts of men might return to God and their true origin.

Peace,
Ed
 
Yet, none of this is a true refutation of the so-called neo-Darwinism that the cardinal opposes. No evolutionist uses the term “chance” to describe the process of natural selection.
Pardon me, but it seems there are a number of misinterpretations occuring in this discussion.

First, Fr. Coyne himself has misread Cardinal Schonborn’s position by aligning Schonborn with the ID movement. Cardinal Schonborn has specifically pointed out that he is not in agreement with ID. I can provide that text if needed. There is a world of difference between seeing design in nature and the creationism theory of ID. Fr. Coyne has equated the two just as do ID supporters who believe that seeing design in nature is evidence for ID creationist theory.

By the way, I believe the Vatican has removed Fr. Coyne from his position.

Second, Schonborn’s criticism of neo-Darwinism entails a criticism of Darwinian ideology since it denies purpose in nature, traditionally called final causes.

This leads to the third point. You stated, “No evolutionist uses the term “chance” to describe the process of natural selection.” This is not exactly true. Chance plays a critical role in neo-Darwinism. For instance, Ernst Mayr says natural selection is a two-step process. “To be sure, selection for adaptedness is paramount at the second step, but this is proceeded by by a first step–the production of the variation that provides the material for the selection process, and here stochastic processes (chance, contingency) are dominant.”

Those are just a few of the several misinterpretations I am seeing.
 
It is not laughable to watch the global marketing campaign for atheism. The elite press embrace paganism and hedonism. “Man created God” appears on the sides of buses. Billboards tell people to stop worrying and enjoy life.

Intelligent design might upset the apple cart. This must not be allowed to happen. For if one could point to a designer, the thoughts of men might return to God and their true origin.

Peace,
Ed
You don’t see the humor in an atheist spending a lot of money to tell people NOT to believe in something?
 
Other Eric

*In the absence of any statement by Coyne that directly refutes the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Magisterium, I remain firm in my position that there is nothing to be overly concerned about, save perhaps for the fevered imaginings of a few overly sensitive ideologues. *

Re-assurance from a lapsed Catholic is not exactly re-assuring. :rolleyes:
 
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