Does Intelligent DEsign Belittle God?

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*As for re-phrasing my question, Post #36 should give you the drift of what I am looking for. *

I answered that in post # 37.

Are you going to answer for the evolutionists (concerning abiogenesis) the same questions you ask the ID folks?

*I don’t want to answer that question just yet, as I detect differences in understanding between Fr. Coyne, Cardinal Shonborn, and various members of CAF regarding what ID actually teaches. Definitions should be clarified and agreed upon first. *

It doesn’t sound as though you you are going to answer that question, as there isn’t any likelihood that all the parties you mentioned can be rounded up in the same room to give common consent to what ID teaches. Actually, I don’t think you can have an answer anyway, because Father Coyne’s remark is simply irrational. There is no way that ID (no matter how you define it) can belittle God.
 
Again, regarding Barr’s argument, I find only a paraphrase from critic. Regarding the direct quote provided by Hibbert, his conclusion does not necessarily follow from Coyne’s observation. It must be remembered that many scholastic philosophers embrace a Calvinistic conception of God quite alien to Catholic sensibilities. Coyne is correct to say that God does not continuously intervene since, if He did, Free Will would be compromised. Rather, it seems, God’s influence and intervention occurs more as the result of invitation rather than His own initiative. In the absence of any statement by Coyne that directly refutes the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Magisterium, I remain firm in my position that there is nothing to be overly concerned about, save perhaps for the fevered imaginings of a few overly sensitive ideologues.
You originally doubted Cardinal Schoenborn’s paraphrase of Fr. Coyne’s ideas. Now, when given a direct quote from him which says essentially the same thing, you say that there’s “nothing to be concerned about” because it doesn’t refute a clear and unambiguous teaching of the Magisterium.
This, as I see it, is an attempt to whitewash the problem.
For example, you claim that Fr. Coyne was referring to heretical medieval, scholastic philosophers who held to a Calvinist view. But why didn’t Fr. Coyne merely name John Calvin? Instead, he pointed to unnamed medieval scholastic philosophers – and orthodox Catholic theology regarding omniscience and omnipotence is formed in a major way from medieval scholasticism.

special thanks to Buffalo for providing this list from Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:



  1. *] **God is everywhere present in created space. (De fide.) **

    1. *] **God’s knowledge is infinite. (De fide.) **
      *] God’s knowledge is purely and simply actual.
      *] God’s knowledge is subsistent
      *] God’s knowledge is comprehensive
      *] God’s knowledge is independent of extra-divine things
      *] The primary and formal object of the Divine Cognition is God Himself. (Scientia contemplationis)
      *] God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De fide.)
      *] God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future (Scientia visionis). (De fide.)
      *] By knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De fide.)
      *] God also knows the conditioned future free actions with infallible certainty (Scientia futuribilium). (Sent. communis.)
      *] God’s Divine will is infinite. (De fide.)
      *] God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom. (De fide.)
      *] God is almighty. (De fide.)
      *] God is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth. (De fide.) D 1782.
      *] God is infinitely just. (De fide.)
      *] God is infinitely merciful. (De fide.)

      Then we have Fr. Coyne:

      [Quoting Fr. Coyne] “we confront what we know of our origins scientifically with religious faith in God the Creator—if, that is, we take the results of modern science seriously—it is difficult to believe that God is omnipotent and omniscient in the sense of many of the scholastic philosophers … God lets the world be what it will be in its continuous evolution. He is not continually intervening, but rather allows, participates, loves. Is such thinking adequate to preserve the special character attributed by religious thought to the emergence not only of life but also of spirit, while avoiding a crude creationism? Only a protracted dialogue will tell.”

      If you read the review from Mr. Barr you would have seen that Fr. Coyne denies outright that God is necessary at all in any explanation on the origin of life. You can see the same thing in the second passage I highlighted here. He asked if it’s possible to reconcile his denial of omniscience and omnipotence with “religious thought” and he cannot answer that it is. “Only protracted dialogue” supposedly, will tell if Catholic teaching can be reconciled with his premise of an “ignorant and powerless” god.

      His view is not different from several prominent theistic evolutionists. In that way, he’s not being original in his errors – but rather, following the herd.
 
In the second sense of “creation” ID asserts special creation for individual organisms of “irreducible complexity.”
Could you please show some evidence where Michael Behe has written or taught that?
 
reggie

*His view is not different from several prominent theistic evolutionists. In that way, he’s not being original in his errors – but rather, following the herd… *
OVER A CLIFF.
 
Father Coyne was featured in the movie Religulous, made by the atheist political commentator Bill Maher. I understand that this movie was a ridicule of religion. I haven’t seen it. Does anyone know what Father Coyne said in the movie? And more to the point, did he use his part in the movie to attack Intelligent Design?
 
Don’t combine Intelligent Design with Creationism.
Ed
I don’t think I am the one who has combined ID with creationism. Re-read Darwin’s Black Box.

“Design” is a word that functions both as a noun and a verb. When we speak of seeing design in nature we are using “design” as a noun. When we speak of something, whether man-made or natural as “designed” by a person or God, we are using design as a verb. When Behe speaks of something being “irreducibly complex” and therefore designed, he means that evolutionary processes cannot account for the design (noun) and therefore the only alternative is that it is intelligently designed (verb). “Designed” in this sense is used by Behe as a synonym for “created”. The assumed “irreducibly complex” system or organism is created by a superior Intelligence, that is, God alone who can truly create. This creation did not take place in the literalist and fundamentalist 6-day creation period, it was specially created. This is a form of creationism.

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

“Behe says he once fully accepted the scientific theory of evolution, but that after reading Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, by Michael Denton, he came to question evolution. Later, Behe came to believe that there was evidence, at a biochemical level, that there were systems that were “irreducibly complex”. These were systems that he thought could not, even in principle, have evolved by natural selection, and thus must have been **created **by an “intelligent designer,” which he believed to be the only possible alternative explanation for such complex structures.”

Nowhere have I seen does Behe, in any way, dispute this interpretation of him as being a creationist. In fact, the interpretation of Behe asserting special creation is in full agreement with my reading of Darwin’s Black Box. In philosophical circles we say that Behe has committed the error of conflating ultimate and proximate causes.

On another note, I recommend Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, by Michael Denton. Denton is a better scientist and writer than Behe. Behe carries Denton’s critique of evolution in the wrong direction.
 
*On another note, I recommend Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, by Michael Denton. Denton is a better scientist and writer than Behe. Behe carries Denton’s critique of evolution in the wrong direction. *

Michael Behe is a Catholic. Michael Denton is an agnostic. Has this anything to do with your comparison? Does agnosticism make for better science? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so please clarify why Denton is a better scientist than Behe.

Thanks.
 
Here is Richard Dawkins interviewing Father Coyne.

youtube.com/watch?v=po0ZMfkSNxc

Father Coyne avoids any reference to Intelligent Design, and regards the Cardinal’s views, as more recently expressed, acceptable.

What’s disconcerting is that Dawkins never brought out Coyne’s views on Intelligent Design. Though waxing enthusiastic about evolution, Coyne is not made by Dawkins to account for abiogenesis, which evolution does not explain. Yet Coyne talks as if Darwinism explains not only the origin of life, but the origin of the universe!
 
Why the obsession with Behe? See this site: uncommondescent.com
He’s not the only one talking about this.

It seems that the focus is not on science but the affect accepting ID might have on the current power struggle being instigated by the new atheism. Atheists are pulling out the stops by using science, which makes a rational pro and con discussion about ID difficult. “Man created God” is based on the completely unproven idea that our genes, while randomly mutating, affected our brains in such a way that we came up with the idea of religion and gods. Now, apparently, after additional random mutations, atheists are attempting to sell the idea that God is a figment of our (genetic) imagination.

Before anyone laughs this off, I would like to remind everyone that advertising is designed to influence people, and even a tiny percentage of positive responses is considered successful.

So, once again, from a scientific standpoint, ID proposes that life cannot come from non-life, that living nanomachinery needs to be assembled in a precise order, and all parts are interdependent. A missing part means a loss of function at best or death.

The probability of DNA self assembling is vanishingly small.

Now, that said, I, and the Church, recognizes the designer as God. However, Pope Benedict, apparently aware of the political controversy surrounding ID, referred to creation as an Intelligent Project. This, I think, aside from the science, which is valid, is not the issue. As far as I can tell, the only issue is so-called “stealth creationism” somehow getting into public school classrooms.

Peace,
Ed
 
Dembski approaches ID mainly in a mathematical context, as that is his area of expertise. However, he works from Behe’s perspective as much as from his own.

The agnostic Michael Denton, who is liked by itinerant, was one of those who opened the whole field of ID. Now he has had second thoughts. But it’s interesting, he notes, that the hydrosphere has remained fairly constant through 4 billion years with respect to providing the 25 elements considered essential to life … another “chance” event?

Not exactly “natural selection.”

Design? :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
youtube.com/watch?v=bT_qI1gwK1c

Cardinal Schonborn ends this piece on YouTube with the following two sentences:

Nature has a language. Why can we understand this language?

Is this a question that Darwinism can even begin to understand? If survival and reproduction were the only thing that Darwinism could address, why does nature give us powers far and away beyond our need to survive or reproduce? Why does nature make us to reflect on the Big Bang, or the ultimate end of the universe, if those things do not feed us, or help us to reproduce and survive in a changing world?

Darwinism gives no key as to why rising degrees of complexity have emerged in the course of evolution. Why have we intelligence and imagination to conceive of a Creator, or to banish from our vision the Creator we have conceived?

Does ID offer a better answer than the purposeless universe of Darwin?
 
On another note, I recommend Evolution: A Theory In Crisis, by Michael Denton. Denton is a better scientist and writer than Behe. Behe carries Denton’s critique of evolution in the wrong direction.

Michael Behe is a Catholic. Michael Denton is an agnostic. Has this anything to do with your comparison? Does agnosticism make for better science? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so please clarify why Denton is a better scientist than Behe.

Thanks.
A person’s religious beliefs or lack thereof should have no bearing on the quality of their scientific work. Science in itself is not Catholic, agnostic, or atheistic. There is no such thing as Catholic math.

The fact that you have presented a rhetorical question that is manifestly irrelevant reveals your failure to grasp the distinctions between natural science, philosophy, and theology. This confusion is shared by most ID supporters.

If being a Catholic by itself made one a better scientist, then we must say that Behe is a better scientist than Einstein and Newton.

Behe remains confused as to the proper scope and limitations of the natural sciences. He does not know how the formal object of philosophy differs from the formal object of natural science. Consequently, he draws conclusions that are not within the scope, province, and limitations of the natural sciences. Behe’s inferences are metaphysical speculations. However, as far as metaphysics is concerned Behe reveals himself to be totally confused since he conflates ultimate and proximate causes.

As a result of Behe’s confusion, his work remains poor science, or rather psuedo-science, and his philosophical speculations are flawed.

To support Behe requires the supporter to likewise confuse the formal objects of the natural sciences and remain confused also about causality.
 
itinerant

The fact that you have presented a rhetorical question that is manifestly irrelevant reveals your failure to grasp the distinctions between natural science, philosophy, and theology. This confusion is shared by most ID supporters.

No, I’m perfectly aware of the distinctions. But Richard Dawkins, the foremost proponent of Darwinism, is not, as you are well aware. He confuses evolution with atheism. There is not a shred of evidence connecting the two.

On the other hand, Newton, Darwin, and einstein were comfortable with assigning nature’s laws to a governing intelligence. I don’t think it should be said that Einstein confused his science with his view of a superior reasoning power. That view could be obtained nowhere other than science.

It is you who have confused science with scientism.

It is you who have not provided scientific evidence (because you know none exists) that life formed by accident. When will the evolutionists learn that the same demand they make of ID they must demand of themselves.

Where’s the beef?

I asked this question before. You chose not to answer it. Now, for the record, please answer it.

Did abiogenesis occur by chance or by design? Whichever answer you give, please state your proof.
 
Sad that this old canard keeps getting brought up. Intelligent design makes far more sense than a series of accidents followed by another series of accidents. It seems that the dream of Ray Kurzweil to create a synthetic human being is the perfect expression of some who want to be totally ‘free’ from any God or religion. Their ego makes them the head while God is offering them friendship and eternal life. The synthetic human will be only a cheap imitation of the real thing.

Life is short, eternity isn’t.

Peace,
Ed
 
itinerant

Your signature comment:

*Only the educated are free. ~Epictetus *

But only if they are educated in virtue.
 
itinerant

Your signature comment:

*Only the educated are free. ~Epictetus *

But only if they are educated in virtue.
I think the idea of Education transcends any one value or lesson. Just knowing 2+2=4 doesn’t make you free. Education makes you free… or at least free-er.
 
No, I’m perfectly aware of the distinctions. But Richard Dawkins, the foremost proponent of Darwinism, is not, as you are well aware. He confuses evolution with atheism. There is not a shred of evidence connecting the two.
Dawkins is not the only offender. There are many contemporary neo-Darwinists who give a materialist interpretation to evolution. Their mindset is such that they actually take their ideology for science. However, this has not always been the case in the history evolutionary theory. There are periods when scientists have remained within the boundaries of evolutionary science.

I take the position, and confidently so, that science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. Science properly studies phenomenal reality; causes closest to the phenomena, that is, proximate causes.
On the other hand, Newton, Darwin, and einstein were comfortable with assigning nature’s laws to a governing intelligence.
It appears that your knowledge of Darwin is superficial at best.

Darwin chose not to reveal the extent of his materialism. He did not believe in a governing intelligence. If you think, he did, what is your evidence for that? Nonetheless, Darwin held to a rank materialism. He was atheist. I shall recommend Ernst Mayr in “What Evolution Is” and “One Long Argument” where he perceptively considers the nuancing in Darwin’s notebooks, which reveal Darwin’s atheism. It would do you well to become familiar with the scientists you refer to.
I don’t think it should be said that Einstein confused his science with his view of a superior reasoning power. That view could be obtained nowhere other than science.
You are projecting your own view about science onto Einstein. Scientific or non-scientific consideration of the cosmos can lead one to the belief in God. However, when a scientists speaks about God he is no longer speaking as a scientist. He speaking as a *man, *like anyone else, or as a philosopher. It would be a rash assumption on your part to assert that Einstein’s physics revealed the existence of his pantheistic God. In any case, I do not see that you are familiar with Einstein’s religious beliefs to any notable degree.
It is you who have confused science with scientism.
Balderdash!
It is you who have not provided scientific evidence (because you know none exists) that life formed by accident. When will the evolutions learn that the same demand they make of ID they must demand of themselves.
You consistently make the common or vulgar mistake of equating Darwinisn and evolution. There is more than one theory of evolution.

Whether abiogenesis or biogenesis ultimately occur my chance or design is a philosophical question. It is not within the province of science to judge. If a Darwinist, or any natural scientist, asserts that only matter exists and the cosmos is ultimately random activities of matter and energy, he is not speaking as a scientist. Such a statement is not a scientific one. It is metaphysical statement that assumes the position of philosophical materialism.

In this sense, modern Darwinists have confused their science with their ideology. At the other end of the philosophical spectrum ID commits the same logical error by confusing science with its IDeology.
Where’s the beef?

I asked this question before. You chose not to answer it. Now, for the record, please answer it.

Did abiogenesis occur by chance or by design? Whichever answer you give, please state your proof.
At this point my answer would fall on deaf ears because you are not able to discern whether any answer I gave would be a meta-physical answer or a scientific answer.
 
*You are assuming that virtue can be taught. State your evidence. *

Are you Catholic or not? have you read your bible, your catechism? Do you pay attention to the priest’s homily? Have you paid attention to your parents (assuming they were virtuous).

But rather than change the subject of this thread, let’s get back to why you won’t provide evidence that abiogenesis happened by chance.

Do you want to say there is no evidence, or do you want to offer some?
 
I will set aside as unworthy of reply some statements you made that are based on sheer ignorance (such as your unfounded assertion that Einstein was a pantheist and Darwin was an atheist – let’s see the quotes).

Your main error in logic is as follows:

Whether abiogenesis or biogenesis ultimately occur my chance or design is a philosophical question. It is not within the province of science to judge.

A philosophical question only? How would anyone be able to answer such a question without drawing on what is visible to the eye or evident to common sense, two methods even science does not shy away from.

Yes, there is such a thing as Catholic science. For example, if you are a Catholic you must believe that the world was created and not that it always existed. A hundred years ago you could say that was not proven or provable by science, but as a Catholic scientist you would believe it to be so, and you would be guided by that belief in searching for the evidence, as George LeMaitre was guided by it when he conceived what later came to be known as the Big Bang…

By the same token, design in the universe is evident everywhere and pure chance is evident nowhere. Science has no explanation for chance (lucky mutations) as the root of all the patterns and laws of the universe. As a Catholic, you are likewise obliged to believe that this is so based on the teachings of the Bible and the Church. Guided by those teachings, science can be relieved of a false atheistic naturalism that today pervades the scientific community.

What you seem to want is two orders of knowledge that must never intersect. LeMaitre saw those orders intersect in the Big Bang. Others see them intersecting in Intelligent Design.

Anyway, it’s good to hear you say there is no scientific explanation for abiogenesis by chance. 👍
 
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