Does Islam accept religious toleration?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Beconvinced, you made some remarks about the historical context of surah 9.

I will discuss this with you and prove that Surah 9 was revealed without the context of war.

According to the Quran itself, Surah 9 was revealed after Muhammad had conquered Mecca and made himself the ruler of Arabia. There would be no more major battles between Arabs in Arabia for centuries. The last battle, Hunain, was named in Surah 9:25 - thus allowing us to date this Surah to a high degree of accuracy.

Because Surah 9 was revealed after Muhammad had won his war against the Arabian Arabs and forced Islam on the defeated, don’t believe this Islamist apologetic that the context of Surah 9 was the war between Muhammad and the Meccans.

In fact, Surah 9 is clearly a DECLARATION OF WAR against All non-Muslims by Muhammad. This declaration of war was open-ended - it was to exist until there is no religion except Islam - and thus it still applies today.

Over to you, Beconvinced. Let’s see how you wiggle out of this one.

 

[cute2904]

good points Rodrigo(pbuh)

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Yet Muslims demand toleration and equality in Western countries that they will never grant to us. I suggest we treat them as they do Christians, see how they like it. That’s what they did in Spain post 1492 and the Muslims rebeled and were expelled. Sauce for the goose…

Hi there Cestusdei…yeah well that sounds like the Christian thing to do …

Barb

 

[manx]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Do you think your argument ad hominem fallacy washes? No. Who is being dishonest? Not me. I will prove that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I suggest you read :

Life of the Prophet

It gave me a different view about the battles of early Muslims.

 

[manx]

Rodrigo Bivar:

First of all, I must apologize for making a mistake. The verse is not 9:5 but 9:29 but you didn’t even realise that, did you? Shows how much you know about surah 9.

How can you make a complete interpretation (tafseer) of the Chapter without understanding the whole scenario why the passages were revealed? As far as I can remember, these verses should be supporte by hadith to explain them further. I think you are engaging in a very dangerous endeavour here.

 

[cute2904]

manx:

I think you are engaging in a very dangerous endeavour here.

dangerous for you not for the rest of us as infidels here . so stick around dont go anywhere. I’m sure rodrigo(pbuh) will get back to you asap.

 

[Ching_PBUH]

manx:

How can you make a complete interpretation (tafseer) of the Chapter without understanding the whole scenario why the passages were revealed? As far as I can remember, these verses should be supporte by hadith to explain them further. I think you are engaging in a very dangerous endeavour here.

Boy oh boy!!! This is getting more interesting! You believe the Hadith? Tell me, are you a **Quran-only Muslim ** or a Hadith-Quran Muslim?

BTW scanning through the last several posts, especially those from Mr. Bivar, speaks volumes about the topic of this thread! Where oh where did THE PERFECT PROPHET hide the “There is NO COMPULSION in religion” and “Your religion YOURS, my religion MINE” verses?

Islam was such a cute, humble and peaceful religion while in Mecca … then when it came back from **theology lessons ** in Medina it turned into a cult of “Muslims GOOD, non-muslims BAAAAAAADDD!”

Why, oh why did Allah abrogate his earlier GODLY messages revealed in Mecca with those ugly later verses revealed in Medina? Was Allah not All-Knowing after all? Why pick on mere mortals like un-believers? Why let them be born only to be tortured and subjugated by muslims later on in life?

Most of all, why call un-believers enemies of Islam? If those verses were HAD SPECIFIC PURPOSE, meant for THAT PERIOD IN TIME IN THAT SPECIFIC LOCALITY ONLY, why do those verses translate into 9/11, Bali, Beslan, 7/7, Bali,…more than 1400 years later NOW?

Okay! Go on Mr. Beever … ooopss, Mr. Bivar!

 

[manx]

cute2904:

dangerous for you not for the rest of us as infidels here . so stick around dont go anywhere. I’m sure rodrigo(pbuh) will get back to you asap.

I did not expect that the level of discussion will go this low. I only fear God who directs me to the truth.

 

[Shadowcry]

Good post Manx

 

[Shadowcry]

Ching_PBUH:

Boy oh boy!!! This is getting more interesting! You believe the Hadith? Tell me, are you a **Quran-only Muslim ** or a Hadith-Quran Muslim?

BTW scanning through the last several posts, especially those from Mr. Bivar, speaks volumes about the topic of this thread! Where oh where did THE PERFECT PROPHET hide the “There is NO COMPULSION in religion” and “Your religion YOURS, my religion MINE” verses?

Islam was such a cute, humble and peaceful religion while in Mecca … then when it came back from **theology lessons ** in Medina it turned into a cult of “Muslims GOOD, non-muslims BAAAAAAADDD!”

Why, oh why did Allah abrogate his earlier GODLY messages revealed in Mecca with those ugly later verses revealed in Medina? Was Allah not All-Knowing after all? Why pick on mere mortals like un-believers? Why let them be born only to be tortured and subjugated by muslims later on in life?

Most of all, why call un-believers enemies of Islam? If those verses were HAD SPECIFIC PURPOSE, meant for THAT PERIOD IN TIME IN THAT SPECIFIC LOCALITY ONLY, why do those verses translate into 9/11, Bali, Beslan, 7/7, Bali,…more than 1400 years later NOW?

Okay! Go on Mr. Beever … ooopss, Mr. Bivar!

Ching you do realize the same could be said for Christianity as being intolerant to unbelivers. In the roman times the pagans were called enemies of the church and persecuted, as were the Muslims in the crusaders epoch, the Hindus of Goa, the list goes on and on.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Statistics:

Year is of your lord,not mine
Through mortal eyes years are unimportant,to some it might have some meaning,to others those are just shallow promises!

You said today is day of your lord and Muslims arent civilized and intollerant

latimes.com/news/printedition/suncommentary/la-op-prager13nov13,1,6755236.story?coll==la-headlines-suncomment

 

[Ching_PBUH]

Shadowcry:

Ching you do realize the same could be said for Christianity as being intolerant to unbelivers. In the roman times the pagans were called enemies of the church and persecuted, as were the Muslims in the crusaders epoch, the Hindus of Goa, the list goes on and on.

Agree, but that does not make Islam any holier! Atrocities done in the Holy Name of Christ was, is and will never be supported by specially worded New Testament verses. While Christianity can be reformed and had been reformed hundreds of years ago, the same cannot be said of the Islam whose book is “THE EXACT WORDS OF ALLAH”. Ironically the words of “inspired” authors of the NT are far more peaceful and noble than the words of the “The Most Merciful”, “The Most Forgiving”, “The All-Knowing” Allah.

 

[manx]

Ching_PBUH:

Agree, but that does not make Islam any holier! Atrocities done in the Holy Name of Christ was, is and will never be supported by specially worded New Testament verses. While Christianity can be reformed and had been reformed hundreds of years ago, the same cannot be said of the Islam whose book is “THE EXACT WORDS OF ALLAH”. Ironically the words of “inspired” authors of the NT are far more peaceful and noble than the words of the “The Most Merciful”, “The Most Forgiving”, “The All-Knowing” Allah.

Christian extremists like Jim Jones and David Koresh made evil mistakes in misinterpreting the Bible. Islamic extremists are doing the same but they surely don’t represent the whole Muslim community.

 

[guestmuslim]

JIMG, After reading the first replies to ur question, I thought the answer will never come
People started talking about Ferdinand, Isabella, crusades, and started fighting over whose history is more glorious ( Islam or Christianity), they went way back in history where i almost forgot what the original question was. I have to admit, it was interesting to read their replies even though I did not find the answer

Finally the answer came from GONZALES, thank u Gonzales

In my opinion, both Islam and Christianity have tolerance for other religions but sometimes the people will bow to their inhumane instincts and commit things that are against their noble religion teachings for some political, economical, or personal reasons.
As a Muslim, I know that Islamic laws are very clear in calling for preserving the human rights of Non-Muslims living under Islam rule while preserving the identity of the Islamic state. The details of the doctrine are in the attached file.

Some points to note about this subject:

• Sometimes you will find differences between Islamic doctrine and the practices in some Muslim countries, specially these days. Therefore we need to distinguish between the original laws of Islam and the unislamic acts of some Muslims
• Almost all the cruelties committed by the peoples of the two religions against each other were provoked by the actions of the other religion’s people. So, always look for the reason. Why did they do that?
• As many as there are bad experiences there are many more good experiences.

 

[Ching_PBUH]

guestmuslim:

Finally the answer came from GONZALES, thank u Gonzales

In my opinion, both Islam and Christianity have tolerance for other religions but sometimes the people will bow to their inhumane instincts and commit things that are against their noble religion teachings for some political, economical, or personal reasons.
As a Muslim, I know that Islamic laws are very clear in calling for preserving the human rights of Non-Muslims living under Islam rule while preserving the identity of the Islamic state. The details of the doctrine are in the attached file.

Some points to note about this subject:

• Sometimes you will find differences between Islamic doctrine and the practices in some Muslim countries, specially these days. Therefore we need to distinguish between the original laws of Islam and the unislamic acts of some Muslims
• Almost all the cruelties committed by the peoples of the two religions against each other were provoked by the actions of the other religion’s people. So, always look for the reason. Why did they do that?
• As many as there are bad experiences there are many more good experiences.

You are wrong my friend but I cannot blame you. It is man’s instinct to be humane and so it is with you. You are hiding your head in the sand, pretending all is well with Islam but you forgot about ALL THOSE HATE VERSES and COMMANDS to EXECUTE THEM ON KUFFARS. They are crystal clear and carried out in direct obedience by THE UMMAH.

I cannot blame you because EVERY INDIVIDUAL MUSLIM I met ARE “as bad as me” or “as good as me”, i.e. mere mortal individual but I cannot say the same of him when he is in a group. His “herd-behaviour” agrees in total to that espoused by The Quran.

We are NOT TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL here but RELIGION as a whole.

The difference between a kuffar terrorist and an Muslim terrorist lies in the source of their command and their cause. Muslim terrorist draw their command from the Quran, their cause is religious and their reward is heavenly.

When you say “… but sometimes the people will bow to their inhumane instincts and commit things that are against their noble religion teachings for some political, economical, or personal reasons.” you are talking about ordinary criminal. I agree in toto with you. In fact that’s the very reason why we have divine warning, punishment and rewards.

Now tell me are the Saudi Arabians Government succumbing to their humane instinct when they prohibit the practice of other religion there?

If you invite me to Islam and I reject and in turn you honour my decision THAT’S TOLERANCE. If you then subject me to dhimminitude and force me to pay the jizya because I refuse, THAT’S INTOLERANCE.

As reminder, gere are some “tolerant” verses:

“**And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.” (8:39)

(8:60) “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah…”.

#96 (47:37) “… invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand …”

On martyrdom: (4:74) “Let those then fight on the path of God, who barter their present life for that which is to come…”
(4:91) “…then seize them (infidels) and slay them wherever ye find them…”

(33:61) “They (the stirrers) shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).”

#113 (9:5) “… fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they convert …” (9:11) “Yet if they turn to God and observe prayer and pay the tax, then they are your brethren in religion…”

(9:14) “”So make war on them: By your hands will Allah punish them”. (9:29) “Make war upon …the Jews and Christians …who profess not the Religion of Truth, until they pay Jizya and be humbled”.

(9:33) Allah hath sent the religion of truth that it may prevail over all religions”.

(9:123) “Believers! Wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors”.

#114 (5:4) “Woe this day on those who forsake their religion”. (Death penalty by Sharia)

(5:51) “O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. . . usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/005.qmt.html#005.051**

 

[maria_james]

Ching_PBUH & Rodrigo Bivar ,

Maybe you can throw some light on these Bible verses regarding tolerance … or, are they quoted out of context ?

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

 

[exoflare]

I’m glad you joined the forum just to post that. I’m sure nobody on this forum has ever read those Bible verses before… Gee, you really got us!

 

[manx]

Ching_PBUH:

As reminder, gere are some “tolerant” verses:

“**And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah.” (8:39)

**

gee! since when did you learn to quote out of context? do you want the Muslims to do the same to our Bible?

 

[manx]

maria_james:

Ching_PBUH & Rodrigo Bivar ,

Maybe you can throw some light on these Bible verses regarding tolerance … or, are they quoted out of context ?

I must me a bad Bible reader because many of these verses are new to me. I will be very interested to read the explanations.

 

[jcaz]

maria_james:

Ching_PBUH & Rodrigo Bivar ,

Maybe you can throw some light on these Bible verses regarding tolerance … or, are they quoted out of context ?

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Homosexuals

"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Thank you for taking the time in making this post. It will be amusing to read how these Muslim hating Catholics come forward with all kinds of explanations of these verses, and how they come forward with all kinds of excuses…but when a Muslim explains to them the so called “kill” verses in the Quraan, and explains that it was for a particular people at a particular time, those explanations are dismissed. Why? Because these people want to do one and only one thing…hate. Ironic huh…that they seem to be doing the very thing that these terrorists are doing.