Does Islam accept religious toleration?

[maria_james]

**What part of “Play the game fair” don’t you understand ?

If people like ching use 911, beslan as yardsticks to judge Islam then naturally we would use the works of Hitler to judge Christianity. Capiche ?

Remember Holy Bible says : “Stop judging, that you may not be judged. For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.”

-Mathew 7:1,2**

**After all you never explained the context of those intolerant verses by giving me Mathew 7:6 which starts by saying "“Do not give what is holy to dogs” …

So by that, if you mean all non-Christians are dogs and hence can be wasted, then don’t pretend to be surprised when they bite you back … **

 

[George_Waters]

If we want to use the logic often pervasive on this forum we will point out that Hitler may have claimed to be Christian, but he was not Catholic therefor heretical and not a true member of the faith so his statement and actions must be ignored as misinterpretations. How often do we hear that when a question about Shiite belief is broached?

George

 

[exoflare]

So by that, if you mean all non-Christians are dogs and hence can be wasted, then don’t pretend to be surprised when they bite you back …

The “dogs” there are those who only use words to sow destruction. Stubborn critics who only want to trick you somehow. If you, on the other hand, really wanted to learn instead of just throwing insults everywhere I might actually take you seriously.

 

[maria_james]

exoflare:

The “dogs” there are those who only use words to sow destruction. Stubborn critics who only want to trick you somehow. If you, on the other hand, really wanted to learn instead of just throwing insults everywhere I might actually take you seriously.

Actually I was seriously interested in getting an explanation. But instead, what I saw was vicious attacks on Islam without even **trying ** to explain anything.

Whereas I gave a point-by-point explanation to the verses quoted from Qur’an. Whether those answers satisfied you is a different matter. For further explanations, you need to delve deeper into Tafseer and Hadith.

But explain the context of Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT to me please. How would you justify murdering an entire town of folks, just because some among them worshipped a different God ?. No where does it say that they were causing destruction or using words to sow destruction.

And I admit, you do debate well.

 

[exoflare]

maria_james:

Actually I was seriously interested in getting an explanation. But instead, what I saw was vicious attacks on Islam without even trying to explain anything.

Whereas I gave a point-by-point explanation to the verses quoted from Qur’an. Whether those answers satisfied you is a different matter. For further explanations, you need to delve deeper into Tafseer and Hadith.

But explain the context of Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT to me please. How would you justify murdering an entire town of folks, just because some among them worshipped a different God ?. No where does it say that they were causing destruction or using words to sow destruction.

And I admit, you do debate well.

Thanks. And I’m sorry if you really were trying to learn something, but please don’t blame me for statements that other posters have made. Even though it is hard, please try to point out ad-hominem attacks without resorting to insults yourself. I’ll try to do the same.

As for the verses you cited, please take it one at a time (as you’ve done here) and I’ll try to get to that in a little bit.

 

[maria_james]

You are most welcome. I am going by the verses found here :

blueletterbible.org/kjv/Deu/Deu013.html

 

[exoflare]

maria_james,

I’m still going to keep up with the verses you asked about, but did you ever think of trying the “Ask an Apologist” section on these forums? They would probably give you a better answer than I could anyway. If you still have further questions after they respond feel free to bring them up too.

 

[r.gonzales]

George Waters:

If we want to use the logic often pervasive on this forum we will point out that Hitler may have claimed to be Christian, but he was not Catholic therefor heretical and not a true member of the faith so his statement and actions must be ignored as misinterpretations. How often do we hear that when a question about Shiite belief is broached?

i believe this is the point that maria is trying to get at.

 

[exoflare]

r.gonzales:

i believe this is the point that maria is trying to get at.

Yeah, I don’t like when people use specific people’s actions in any case. It doesn’t fly when speaking of any religion’s teachings.

 

[George_Waters]

r.gonzales:

i believe this is the point that maria is trying to get at.

That is not what I took from maria’s earlier remarks, but I hope that is the case. As you reminded me months ago r.gonzales, we should not make sweeping generalizations. Lesson learned!

Peace,

George

 

[Booklover]

maria_james:

Opnions, opinions. They are Not facts, my friend. He was challenged so many times to debate in front of a gathering of atleast 10,000 people and everytime he runs away for fear of being defeated …

Atleast the Christian Evangelists had the courage and decency to debate with Deedat … And some of them did debate well … but sina just wants to hide behind the “net” and make evil posts/comments …

Sina does not run away from debates! If you’re insinuating that he’s a coward, why does he keep fighting Islam, when he knows very well that he could be killed for it??

 

[George_Waters]

I was just thinking about all the above quotes linking Hitler and Christianity. Then I remembered Hitler had two SS divisions made up of Muslims. I don’t think any of us should ever use Hitler to make any point except to show what intolerance and hatred will do. Not trying to start anything, just my thought.

Peace,

George

 

[Booklover]

maria_james:

Actually I was seriously interested in getting an explanation. But instead, what I saw was vicious attacks on Islam without even trying to explain anything.

Whereas I gave a point-by-point explanation to the verses quoted from Qur’an. Whether those answers satisfied you is a different matter. For further explanations, you need to delve deeper into Tafseer and Hadith.

But explain the context of Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT to me please. How would you justify murdering an entire town of folks, just because some among them worshipped a different God ?. No where does it say that they were causing destruction or using words to sow destruction.

And I admit, you do debate well.

(1) In the Old Testament, sometimes (1) God commands all inhabitants of a region or town to be wiped out entirely, like Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 18:16-19:29) This is the big lesson of Genesis. If God had found even five righteous in those two cities, then he would not have destroyed them. No region or town that had a hope of repentance is ever wiped out. [1] But when it is, then we can be sure that God is acting wisely and justly, even if our modern emotions do not like this aspect of God’s character.

(2) God is very specific about who should be wiped out entirely, and who should live. He was not feeling His way, moving against one tribe in Canaan to the next in ad-hoc way. He did not offer progressive revelations of letting some live and others die, as circumstance dictated. Rather, we can trust that since God knows the heart, if the Canaanites had to be wiped out entirely, then they were so degenerate that they were beyond hope—all of them, even the women and children.

(3) Also, God in the Old Testament was not interested in converting these pagans or at least influencing them for righteousness, but only becase they were too far gone. Reading their hearts, He commands, rather, that they should be eliminated–an extreme measure to be sure, but for those who trust God it is a necessary extreme, because the pagans’ corrupting influence was so great that they had to be taken out. If peaceful co-existence were possible, then God would have ordained that; He did not purpose to kill them just for the sake of bloodshed or in a confused, ad-hoc way. Peace was always the better goal.

Hope this helps! It was in an article called "Mohammad’s Wars v. God’s Wars. Don’t have a link for it.

Vickie

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Rather, we can trust that since God knows the heart, if the Canaanites had to be wiped out entirely, then they were so degenerate that they were beyond hope—all of them, even the women and children.

(3) Also, God in the Old Testament was not interested in converting these pagans or at least influencing them for righteousness, but only becase they were too far gone. Reading their hearts, He commands, rather, that they should be eliminated–an extreme measure to be sure, but for those who trust God it is a necessary extreme, because the pagans’ corrupting influence was so great that they had to be taken out. If peaceful co-existence were possible, then God would have ordained that; He did not purpose to kill them just for the sake of bloodshed or in a confused, ad-hoc way. Peace was always the better goal.

A few points, Vickie -

God, of course, is the Lord of Life and History and has the right to take life since He gave it; others don’t have that right, but He does, always has.

Although He did not intend death (it comes as a result of Original Sin, which He permits), He inflicts it or permits it to further His Plan of Salvation for all and each.This reveals that death is not the greatest evil, but sin is.

It also reveals that God inflicts or permits it, for a higher purpose or greater good – which comes out later, and is supernatural.

When He orders the “herem”, or ban, to be put into effect, God, of course, eternally knows His Plan of Redemption in His Son. It is in view of that that He orders the “herem”; and it is view of that that the innocent among those who are killed by the Israelites will be saved.

The enemies of God’s people who are destroyed are also real symbols of evil and sin which Christ destroys at His Sacrifice (applied at Baptism) and of the vices of concupiscence to be overcome by active cooperation with the grace of God in the spiritual life, and the final defeat of ALL the powers of evil and sin at the end of the world. All those things are known by God when He commands the “herem” and are spiritual meanings not known by the human writer.

 

[maria_james]

Booklover:

Sina does not run away from debates! If you’re insinuating that he’s a coward, why does he keep fighting Islam, when he knows very well that he could be killed for it??

All the people who debated Dr. Zakir Naik or Deedat are* **still ** * alive and well …

 

[maria_james]

quote=Booklover Hope this helps!
Vickie
[/quote]

It does help. Thanx.

1. Just wondering if Christianity has any authentic books like Tafseer or Hadith that explains the context of the verses.
2. And how is the accuracy of Holy Bible maintained? … I mean, is there any organization / office that preserves the commonly accepted text of Holy Bible ? If yes, where (which country) is it ?

BTW, Happy Thanks Giving To ALL …

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Beautiful Maria,

Yes, reading www.faithfreedom.org really helps me to understand more.

And beautiful Maria, we are talking about intolerance in Islam. tu quo que (Christian Intolerance) doesn’t make Islam becomes a tolerant religion. Unless you will say that someone who kills can justify his killing by saying that other people kill too.
And beautiful and kind hearted Maria, I think if you need to discuss bible when we are talking about Islam Intolerancy, you need to open other thread instead of distracting people to start discussing Bible.

Kisses from afar

Fox

Dear Rasheed,

ha! cry personal attack when you yourself said that you were too lazy to read what was posted, and then make a personal attack of your own implying that i’m inhumane for supporting divine legislation (which btw, finds support in your own scriptures!!!)???

Rasheed, HOW DO YOU KNOW I AM WRITING A SCRIPT THAT announce me to be a prophet??? Are you spying on me?

By the way, I am lazy when I must read long explanation when you can say something like for example:
" In quran, there’s a verse about killing the flithy disbelievers, but it should be interpreted that the filthy disbelievers are those who don’t take a bath…(Q x:xxx) "

By saying…
“Due to the coming of a Quran…bla bla bla…bla bla bla…and then after seeing the Bible also have…bla bla bla…let me quote you bla bla bla bla…bla bla bla…
And besides…bla bla bla…so here you can see that bla bla bla…
so in conclusion the filthy disbelievers are those how dont take a bath…” (and the bla bla can fill one pages, until it should be continued to another page)

Besides, being a lazy personality, you are safe from me. I don’t have any intention to kill apostates, anyway.

Fox

P.S. Why I should be ashamed of being lazy? That’s why I always try to make my point as short as can be, except when explaining to you about the bla-bla-bla.

 

[Ching_PBUH]

Beautiful Black Maria daughter of James,

OBL’s mercenaries are COWARDS, Hitler’s mercenaries fought to the end! Hihih… … and as always GOOD will triumph over EVIL

Hitler’s aim was not religious but Nazism, errr… whatever that may mean … heheheh… He didn’t want to be Pope! His goons were trained military … they didn’t shout “Alleluia, Praise the Lord!” in their short-lived victories!

So, you see, it doesn’t matter much even if Hitler was an ordained Roman Catholic Priest … can’t you all see that? Heheheh…

Now, OBL’s men are terrorist, his mission is religious in nature and he draws commands from, errr… from…mmmm… some book! His men shout " Allaaaaaaaaahooooo Akhbarrrrrrrrrrr! " after succesful hits. This will be echoed by wild street dancing and jumpin’ and clappin’ and ulullating fat burqaed women in Iran, Iraq, Pakistan …

TEXT DELETED

Adolf Hitler (PBUH) JUST CANNOT be compared to OBL …FULLSTOP!

TEXT DELETED

 

[cute2904]

DeExupery:

Dear Beautiful Maria,
Yes, reading www.faithfreedom.org really helps me to understand more.

Fox, what she meant was ‘dot com’ not ‘dot org’. Both contain alot of different things and both are opponents to each other. Probably you should try their forums…

 

[De_Maria]

Statistics:

Jim after Ferdinand and Isabela took Granada in 1492,not only Muslims or Moriscos who would live Spain only later in 1609 wereexiled

But also the Jews suffered expulsio 1492!
And guess a country that banned Jews before Spain?
Christian Portugal?
Wao,catholic christian Portugal
And who accepted Jews?
Sweden not untill 1746 when first Jews were permited to setlle
Muslim Ottoman Empire

There are lot more examples,but i dont mind saying more cases
So,conform in whose countries,?
Or you really think that All of Europe is Christian?
Maybe in Vatican City not in other places

But religious intolerance is not taught by the Catholic Church. Catholics who are intolerant of other religions are doing it in spite of Church teaching.

On the other hand, religious intolerance is part and parcel of Islamic teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria