Does Islam accept religious toleration?

[maria_james]

Ching_PBUH:

Beautiful Black Maria daughter of James,

Now these are racist remarks. I refuse to stoop to your level.

So, you see, it doesn’t matter much even if Hitler was an ordained Roman Catholic Priest … can’t you all see that? Heheheh…

Little Ching, you sound very childish.

Now, did someone tell you that your debating style is extremely pathetic?.

You didn’t counter ANY of my arguments. On the contrary, you just throw some of your opinions here and there thinking they are facts and post some funny icons as if you have won the dedate …

Is this the way you always debate, or only at times ?

Anyway, I’ll wait for you to grow up … till then, I am sorry I can’t debate you …

Luckily there are many others who are debating decently, who make visiting this forum worth my time …

 

[maria_james]

De Maria:

But religious intolerance is not taught by the Catholic Church. Catholics who are intolerant of other religions are doing it in spite of Church teaching.

On the other hand, religious intolerance is part and parcel of Islamic teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Define Catholic teaching for us please … Are you telling us that :

1. Catholic teaching involves a ***different *** Holy Bible that doesn’t contain those intolerable verses ? …

Or,

1. Those intolerent verses in Holy Bible are no longer applicable and hence can be removed ? …

Which is it ? …

Atleast Booklover & FCEGM tried to explain the context of those verses …

And no, religious intolerance is NOT part and parcel of Islamic teaching. Are there intolerant Muslims? Absolutely. No one is denying that. That exists in every religion.

 

[maria_james]

cute2904:

Fox, what she meant was ‘dot com’ not ‘dot org’. Both contain alot of different things and both are opponents to each other. Probably you should try their forums…

Cute, I think he knows that. He’s just being lazy to admit it.

Gonzales & I explained the context of verses from Qur’an and Booklover/FCEGM explained the context of verses from Bible.

If he’s too lazy to read & understand, then that’s his problem.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Maria,

Oops…so I mistyped the address? So what else did I mistype? Did I mistype that tuquoque is not an answer and we are talking about Islam Intolerance while you keep distracting the readers of this thread by keep talking about Christians? Too bad. Is it the only thing that you can do to answer the intolerancy of Islam?
Let us back to discuss about the Intolerancy of Islam in:

1. The Teaching
2. History
3. Recent Situation.
   How’s that?
   If you want to open the thread of Christian intolerancy, please open another thread.

Fox

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

Oops…so I mistyped the address?

sounds a lot like at-taqiyyah to me…

 

[DeExupery]

Dear brother Gonzales,

What is at-taqqiyah? Could you please explain to us here. We are a greenhorn in Arabic, while you are an expert (as you have shown in the thread about Iqra). Because in Christian, Hindu, Buddha, etc, we don’t have that term, anyway.

Fox

P.S. But do you agree that our dear Beautiful Sister Maria is a bit out of topic?

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

What is at-taqqiyah?

remember this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=82772 ?

try skimming through the posts near the beginning and you’ll find your answer.

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

Oh, this is what you mean by at-taqqiyah?

that chapter on deceit stretches things quite a bit and is rather deceptive itself. the allowance for taqiyyah legislated by the Quran and sunnah is limited to situations where one fears some sort of danger; Allah says, “the believers should not take the unbelievers as allies and whoever does that, then he has nothing to do with Allah, unless they fear from them something to be feared. and Allah warns you from Himself, and to Allah is the outcome.” (3:28). ibn katheer explains, “His statement, ‘unless they fear from them something to be feared,’ meaning: unless someone feared from their evil in some of the countries or moments. so he has [the right] to take shelter from them with his outward (appearance), not with his inward (condition) and his intention.” at-taqiyyah is only permitted when one is in danger and fears for his life. in these sorts of discussions and debates, what is there to fear for one’s life? unless you are going to kill me, i have no reason to use at-taqiyyah on you.

Oh, is it the same by lying? So when moslems fear on something, they can pretend they love their kuffr friends? But in their heart they loathe them to the bone? Oh, my. Very strange to me. It sounds more similar to the Sun Tzu Art of War than a holy book like Veda.
Dear Brother Gonzales, I don’t feel that you will kill me (hopefully, because at least I am not an apostate of Islam, and you have no reason to kill me), so I don’t think that’s taqiyya…

And now, how if we continue the discussion here on track:

Oops…so I mistyped the address? So what else did I mistype? Did I mistype that tuquoque is not an answer and we are talking about Islam Intolerance while you keep distracting the readers of this thread by keep talking about Christians? Too bad. Is it the only thing that you can do to answer the intolerancy of Islam?Let us back to discuss about the Intolerancy of Islam in:

1. The Teaching
2. History
3. Recent Situation.
   How’s that?
   If you want to open the thread of Christian intolerancy, please open another thread.

Fox

 

[De_Maria]

maria_james:

Define Catholic teaching for us please … Are you telling us that :

1. Catholic teaching involves a ***different *** Holy Bible that doesn’t contain those intolerable verses ? …

Or,

1. Those intolerent verses in Holy Bible are no longer applicable and hence can be removed ? …

Which is it ? …

Atleast Booklover & FCEGM tried to explain the context of those verses …

And no, religious intolerance is NOT part and parcel of Islamic teaching. Are there intolerant Muslims? Absolutely. No one is denying that. That exists in every religion.

Catholic teaching proceeds from the Catholic Church who interprets the Bible infallibly. If you had read the Bible you would see the verses which say, “If he doesn’t listen to the Church, let him be treated as a heathen” Matt 18:17

and also,

“The Church, the pillar and foundation of the Truth” 1 Tim 3:15.

Unlike Islam, we have one interpreter of the Bible, established by Jesus Christ with the promise that it will never fall to the gates of hell. So regardless of what those verses mean to you, the Catholic Church does not teach intolerance.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

r.gonzales:

remember this thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=82772 ?

try skimming through the posts near the beginning and you’ll find your answer.

Unlike Muslims, we are not requred to know Arabic for any reason. Therefore, if you are going to use Arabic here, please interpret it. There is no rule that we must understand or learn or remember anything that you have written in Arabic. You are the visitor. If you want to speak Arabic, move your comments to a Muslim forum!

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[maria_james]

De Maria:

Catholic teaching proceeds from the Catholic Church who interprets the Bible infallibly. If you had read the Bible you would see the verses which say, “If he doesn’t listen to the Church, let him be treated as a heathen” Matt 18:17

1. Oh, I see. So that’s what you are basing this whole stuff on, huh ?. If a Christian commits a CRIME that’s becoz he’s a heathen and needs to be treated as such. But if a Muslim commits a CRIME, that’s becoz he’s a Muslim. Too simplistic.

I wonder why you would NOT apply the same logic to the verse 5:32 from Qur’an which says :

“If you kill one innocent person, it’s as if you killed all of humanity. If you save one person, it’s as if you saved all of humanity.”

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html
De Maria:

and also,

“The Church, the pillar and foundation of the Truth” 1 Tim 3:15.

Unlike Islam, we have one interpreter of the Bible, established by Jesus Christ with the promise that it will never fall to the gates of hell. So regardless of what those verses mean to you, the Catholic Church does not teach intolerance.

Sincerely,

De Maria

One interpreter. And that gave rise to 74 ***different *** versions of Holy Bible, huh ?

In Christianity, according to the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001) by David B. Barrett, et al, there are “over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries.” Every year there is a net increase of around 270 to 300 denominations.

That’s ***some ** * Interpreter …

 

[maria_james]

DeExupery:

P.S. But do you agree that our dear Beautiful Sister Maria is a bit out of topic?

I am very much on topic. If you’ve never seen a zebra and if you want me to explain how it looks, then I would start by drawing your attention to a horse (assuming you’ve seen a horse).

Same thing. Comprende ? …

And please spare me the “Holier than Thou” attitude …

 

[maria_james]

DeExupery:

Dear Gonzales,

Oh, this is what you mean by at-taqqiyah?

Al-Taqiyya ? …

It would be something like Jesus asking his desciples to **hide the truth **when they found out that he is the Christ of God :

“And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?”
”They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.”
”He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.”
”And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;” (Luke 9:18-21)

Now, what Jesus (PBUH) did here would be Al-Taqiyya (hiding the truth) … hope you got its meaning nice and clear NOW …

 

[Ching_PBUH]

maria_james:

You didn’t counter ANY of my arguments. On the contrary, you just throw some of your opinions here and there thinking they are facts and post some funny icons as if you have won the dedate …

Yes I did! The 9/11 was brought up along with OBL. Then YOU tuquoque by highlighting Hitler, a Christian, was even worst! I countered that by saying Hitler cannot be compared to OBL giving crystal-clear reasons!
De Maria:

Catholic teaching proceeds from the Catholic Church who interprets the Bible infallibly. If you had read the Bible you would see the verses which say, “If he doesn’t listen to the Church, let him be treated as a heathen” Matt 18:17

and also,

“The Church, the pillar and foundation of the Truth” 1 Tim 3:15.

… and also “keys to heaven”

and also : “Where 2 or three of you are gathered in My Name, there will I be in YOUR midst! Anything you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven…”

DeExupery:

Let us back to discuss about the Intolerancy of Islam in:

1. The Teaching
2. History
3. Recent Situation.

You forgot the Prophet himself. He was the one who executed those sick teaching physically!

maria_james:

“If you kill one innocent person, it’s as if you killed all of humanity. If you save one person, it’s as if you saved all of humanity.”

That verse was meant for " **the Children of Israel **" aka Jews not Ishmaelites aka Muslims!!!

**005.032
YUSUFALI: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

**PICKTHAL: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel **that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

**SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel **that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. **

I am sorry BUT you still have NOT proven anything to disprove Islam’s intolerance. Islam’s INTOLERANCE to other religion and non-muslims is crystal clear but you keep hiding your head in the sand!

 

[r.gonzales]

De Maria:

Unlike Muslims, we are not requred to know Arabic for any reason. Therefore, if you are going to use Arabic here, please interpret it. There is no rule that we must understand or learn or remember anything that you have written in Arabic. You are the visitor. If you want to speak Arabic, move your comments to a Muslim forum!

firstly, being that deExupery took part in a thread that discussed taqiyyah, i’d assume that he/she read that portion of the thread and knows what it refers to.

secondly, in discussions about islam, it’s a given that arabic terms and expressions will be used in the discussion, you don’t like it, then don’t participate in the discussion or ask what certain things mean.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

I would like to take a moment to remind everyone to remember their charity in the content AND TONE of your post. I have edited some very boarderline comments- not because of the words within them, but the TONE they convey.

One can be very condescending in tone- while being perfectly right in content. On this board tone and content ARE NOT mutually exclusive.

Please continue the discussion with this in mind.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

r.gonzales:

firstly, being that deExupery took part in a thread that discussed taqiyyah, i’d assume that he/she read that portion of the thread and knows what it refers to.

I believe this to be reasonable.

secondly, in discussions about islam, it’s a given that arabic terms and expressions will be used in the discussion, you don’t like it, then don’t participate in the discussion or ask what certain things mean.

I do not believe this is reasonable however. We should ALL endeavor to make sure our words and their meanings are well understood. This is a forum where religions and even nationalities converge, and we may need some quick definitions of terms.

We are discussing these things FOR THE VERY REASON of educating eachother in the philosophies of each other’s religion. To then say that we should not educate certain terms or ideas seems contrary to the very reason why the forum exists.

I do agree that there have been many discussions about these things in the course of the forums existence, and encourage EVERYONE to use the search feature on these boards, to look up terms that might be unfamiliar. Please do this before mentioning it in a thread- so as to keep the thread from veering off topic.

I encourage everyone to post reference links to help others who are just joining us.

Thanks for everyone’s participation.

God bless you,

Rachel

 

[De_Maria]

1) Oh, I see. So that’s what you are basing this whole stuff on, huh ?. If a Christian commits a CRIME that’s becoz he’s a heathen and needs to be treated as such.

You are mixing apples and oranges. A Christian who commits a crime has committed a sin. If that Christian repents and pays for his crime he will have listened to the Church and will be forgiven.

If the Christian insists on committing crimes and refuses to listen to the Church, he will be brought to justice and he will be shunned. That is how heathens were treated by the Jews, they were avoided.

But if a Muslim commits a CRIME, that’s becoz he’s a Muslim. Too simplistic.

You changed the venue from religious tolerance to crimes. The Catholic Church teaches religious tolerance. The Quran teaches religious intolerance.

I wonder why you would NOT apply the same logic to the verse 5:32 from Qur’an which says :

“If you kill one innocent person, it’s as if you killed all of humanity. If you save one person, it’s as if you saved all of humanity.”

Because it is Islam who applies the standard. Although there are a few passages which sound as though Islam is fair across the board, in point of fact, the only ones that Islam considers innocent are Muslims. In Muslim nations, nonMuslims legal status is below that of Muslim women. And Muslim women’s legal status is low indeed. I believe it takes three Muslim women to be the equivalent of 1 Musllim man, is that not correct?

One interpreter. And that gave rise to 74 ***different *** versions of Holy Bible, huh ?

Virtually every version of the Bible says exactly the same thing. There are a few which are deviant interpretations and have been corrupted. Therefore Catholics need to be careful to use one that is acceptable to the Catholic Church.

In Christianity, according to the World Christian Encyclopedia (2001) by David B. Barrett, et al, there are “over 33,000 denominations in 238 countries.” Every year there is a net increase of around 270 to 300 denominations.

But there is only one Catholic Church. Those who do not gather with Christ scatter.

That’s ***some *** Interpreter …

Its been around for 2000 years. How long was Islam united under one Apostle? Until the death of Mohammed. Then it quickly shattered into several divisions and none of them have ever practiced true Islam since.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Shadowcry]

De Maria:

.

You changed the venue from religious tolerance to crimes. The Catholic Church teaches religious tolerance. The Quran teaches religious intolerance.

Do you have any facts for this statement?

 

[maria_james]

De Maria:

The Catholic Church teaches religious tolerance. The Quran teaches religious intolerance.

If you believe you can state your view as a fact, then I do have the same right. So here it goes :

“The Catholic Church teaches religious intolerance. The Quran teaches religious tolerance.”
De Maria:

In Muslim nations, nonMuslims legal status is below that of Muslim women. And Muslim women’s legal status is low indeed. I believe it takes three Muslim women to be the equivalent of 1 Musllim man, is that not correct?

TEXT DELETED

If you need more info, please visit an Islamic forum and ask these questions there.

But if you care, you can start here :

islamawareness.net/Women/compwomen.html
De Maria:

Virtually every version of the Bible says exactly the same thing.

There are versions of Bible that differ tremendously. They don’t even accept the same God. Some are trinitarians, some are unitarians. Some think Mary is God. Some consider Jesus just as a messenger. Catholics consider Protestantism to be a false religion and vice versa. Protestants, 560 million of them, just don’t beleive in Pope or the Holy Papacy’s “infallibility”?

**KJV : King James Version : How can a man write a version for God’s words ? … **
De Maria:

Its been around for 2000 years. How long was Islam united under one Apostle? Until the death of Mohammed. Then it quickly shattered into several divisions and none of them have ever practiced true Islam since.

What would you know about True Islam ?

Christianity: In 2000 years, 33,000+ denominations and still growing at 300 per year. And you are worried about the “several divisions” in Islam.

Mat 7:5 "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. "