Does Islam make sense?

[marywarfield]

Because the entire purpose of jihadwatch is to attack Islam, and spread fear of Islam and Muslims.

In the same way, I would characterize Jack Chick’s website as a hate site, at least as references the Catholic Faith.

The world has more than enough hatred. God does not want us to hate one another.

Of course Catholic News Service is not a hate site. And of course the people who murder others because of religion are acting from hatred.

That is why websites attacking people because of their religion are so pernicious. They serve the cause of hatred and fear, and cause and inspire violence (cf: Breivik)

But is their fear realistic? Does the religion, from it’s inception,
promote violence, and if so, isn’t it reasonable for
a site like jihad watch to warn and alert of the danger?

It seems the violence is increasing and at the same
anyone pointing it out is considered a hate mongrel?

 

[Servant19]

But is their fear realistic? Does the religion, from it’s inception,
promote violence, and if so, isn’t it reasonable for
a site like jihad watch to warn and alert of the danger?

It seems the violence is increasing and at the same
anyone pointing it out is considered a hate mongrel?

I think we show strain every nerve to assist spiritually dead and godless people towards God and spiritual life, no matter what religion they may profess



.

 

[Servant19]

Just to add I personally wouldn’t compare the collapsing disintegration of Islam with Christianity

Islam is very much aligned with Judaism (my personal opinion). Look at what is happening in Israel currently with the use of the old Testament as justification for the oppression of others, and compare that with the current climate in Islamic countries…

In both cases the sacred texts have been taken well out of context and to the extreme level…

.

 

[Tarquin]

I’m a little upset that I got a rambling pm here on Catholic Answers Forum from someone who apparently thought I was attributing things to Muhammad that I was not attributing to him. Anyone who is merely “watching” these forums in order to pounce on comments you don’t approve of, please get your heads screwed on right so you address your concerns to the appropriate person.

Right after someone requested no links to hate sites,
someone linked the Southern Poverty Law Center.
The SPLC propagandizes for cultural marxism, against the freedom of speech and assembly, and other things harmful to children and small animals. Like other marxist groups and the ACLU, it maintains a veneer of respectability by targeting some definitely bad things.

I still get their fund-raising letters with hair-raising tales of atrocities against minorities, but now that I know their goals and methods, I tear them up. I regret they are even mentioned here.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Robert Spencer runs the hate site jihadwatch.org

So reporting on Islamic terrorists makes you hateful? If you had read any of Mr Spencer’s books you would realize he generally relies on the Islamic hadiths for whatever he says about Muhammad. Hadiths Muslims in Islamic countries generally accept. His style sometimes might be a bit crude, but you cannot accuse him of being hateful simply because he reads the islamic sources and happens to find in them the interpretation of the terrorists as well as Orthodox Islamic authorities.

But this event is actually mentioned in the quran

SHAKIR: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah’s command shall be performed. 33:37

and in case it be accused I have made this up

And when (idh is dependent because of [an implied preceding] udhkur, ‘mention [when]’) you said to him to whom God had shown favour, by [guiding him to] Islam, and to whom you [too] had shown favour: by manumitting him — this was Zayd b. Hāritha, who had been a prisoner of war before [the coming of] Islam (in the period of al-jāhiliyya). The Messenger of God (s) purchased him before his call to prophethood, and then manumitted him and adopted him as his son — ‘Retain your wife for yourself and fear God’, before divorcing her. But you had hidden in your heart what God was to disclose, [what] He was to manifest of your love for her and of [the fact] that should Zayd part with her you would marry her, and you feared people, would say, ‘He has married his son’s wife!’, though God is worthier that you should fear Him, in all things, so take her in marriage and do not be concerned with what people say. Zayd subsequently divorced her and her [obligatory] waiting period was completed. God, exalted be He, says: So when Zayd had fulfilled whatever need he had of her, We joined her in marriage to you — the Prophet consummated his marriage with her without [the customary] permission [from her legal guardian] and gratified the Muslims with [a feast of] bread and meat — so that there may not be any restriction for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have fulfilled whatever wish they have of them. And God’s commandment, that which He has decreed, is bound to be realized. Tafsir Al Jalalayn

Bahais and Muslims are so quick to deny anything bad said about Muhammad and that is the only criteria. If it is negative, you cannot trust it. If it embarrasses the prophet, well it obviously cannot be trusted. This is another aspect which makes little sense in Islam, how is it that only the sources you use and interpret are the correct sources but any sources Christians use well they can’t possibly be true?

 

[Servant19]

So reporting on Islamic terrorists makes you hateful? If you had read any of Mr Spencer’s books you would realize he generally relies on the Islamic hadiths for whatever he says about Muhammad. Hadiths Muslims in Islamic countries generally accept. His style sometimes might be a bit crude, but you cannot accuse him of being hateful simply because he reads the islamic sources and happens to find in them the interpretation of the terrorists as well as Orthodox Islamic authorities.

But this event is actually mentioned in the quran

SHAKIR: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah’s command shall be performed. 33:37

and in case it be accused I have made this up

And when (idh is dependent because of [an implied preceding] udhkur, ‘mention [when]’) you said to him to whom God had shown favour, by [guiding him to] Islam, and to whom you [too] had shown favour: by manumitting him — this was Zayd b. Hāritha, who had been a prisoner of war before [the coming of] Islam (in the period of al-jāhiliyya). The Messenger of God (s) purchased him before his call to prophethood, and then manumitted him and adopted him as his son — ‘Retain your wife for yourself and fear God’, before divorcing her. But you had hidden in your heart what God was to disclose, [what] He was to manifest of your love for her and of [the fact] that should Zayd part with her you would marry her, and you feared people, would say, ‘He has married his son’s wife!’, though God is worthier that you should fear Him, in all things, so take her in marriage and do not be concerned with what people say. Zayd subsequently divorced her and her [obligatory] waiting period was completed. God, exalted be He, says: So when Zayd had fulfilled whatever need he had of her, We joined her in marriage to you — the Prophet consummated his marriage with her without [the customary] permission [from her legal guardian] and gratified the Muslims with [a feast of] bread and meat — so that there may not be any restriction for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have fulfilled whatever wish they have of them. And God’s commandment, that which He has decreed, is bound to be realized. Tafsir Al Jalalayn

Bahais and Muslims are so quick to deny anything bad said about Muhammad and that is the only criteria. If it is negative, you cannot trust it. If it embarrasses the prophet, well it obviously cannot be trusted. This is another aspect which makes little sense in Islam, how is it that only the sources you use and interpret are the correct sources but any sources Christians use well they can’t possibly be true?

Excuse me sir, Baha’is deny anything bad said about Islam because the majority of the “bad” relates to often contradictory hearsay, namely the Hadiths.

We have already established several contradictory sources of the age of Aisha and this demonstrates clearly that historicity in Islam is very unreliable outside the Quran.

If Muslims choose to consider some Hadiths as their Gospel, and Christians choose to use “other” Hadiths as their Gospel, then you have people who want to use UNRELIABLE HEARSAY as a means to prove themselves RIGHT.

If you want to do that, then go ahead, but Baha’is choose not to rely on hearsay but rather use the Book to judge a religion and it’s fruits.

It’s your decision to err on the side of hearsay rather than the Book and it’s to God that you answer to at your Judgement.
This message goes out to Christians and especially Muslims, who rely on Hadiths rather than the Book to find right relationship with God!

Mr. Robert Spencer is the perfect example of this ridiculous and unrighteousness kind of behaviour.

Thank you for reading!

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Excuse me sir, Baha’is deny anything bad said about Islam because the majority of the “bad” relates to often contradictory hearsay, namely the Hadiths.

We have already established several contradictory sources of the age of Aisha and this demonstrates clearly that historicity in Islam is very unreliable outside the Quran.

If Muslims choose to consider some Hadiths as their Gospel, and Christians choose to use “other” Hadiths as their Gospel, then you have people who want to use UNRELIABLE HEARSAY as a means to prove themselves RIGHT.

If you want to do that, then go ahead, but Baha’is choose not to rely on hearsay but rather use the Book to judge a religion and it’s fruits.

It’s your decision to err on the side of hearsay rather than the Book and it’s to God that you answer to at your Judgement.
This message goes out to Christians and especially Muslims, who rely on Hadiths rather than the Book to find right relationship with God!

Mr. Robert Spencer is the perfect example of this ridiculous and unrighteousness kind of behaviour.

Thank you for reading!

.

Here’s the point you have noy addressed however. I do not take the sources seriously, any of the Islamic sources seriously, but how do you then consistently determine which is true and which is not? In contemporary history there is a criterion of embarrassment, that is a saying is more likely to be true if it is embarrassing to the author. Given that the quran itself acknowledges Muhammad doing something the people do not approve of, that is marrying your son’s wife, this is more plausible than some of the stories regarding the life of the so called prophet.

We also have consistent testimony that Aisha was young when she was married, six and the marriage consummated at nine. Given that all the sources are in agreement with this, and there are multiple sources, why should we deny this? Or is it that we should uncritically accept every single positive thing said about Muhammad as Muslims do today? Do bahai have a critical method for reading the hadiths? Your prophet quoted them sometimes as examples, did he give you a method to know? If now why do you believe anything concerning this so called Muhammad if the testimony regarding him is hearsay? Is Muhammad’s battle and the Byzantines to be dismissed? What is to be accepted and rejected? I cannot tell, no one has the daring to do this sort of historical research except for people like Mr Spencer.

Mr Spencer is not as critical or thought provoking as some historians, but he is risking his life in doing this and the Muslims hate him for it. Any attempt to study at university this topic is daring and brave and not really encouraged now is it.

But here’s the problem with judging by the quran alone. You cannot do this because it doesn’t make sense by itself. Many of the so called Revelations are pertinent to Muhammad’s specific circumstance. So what does surah 33:37 mean? Do we dismiss the traditions around it and and attempt to explain what it means from the text alone? Who is Zaid? Why he give up his wife for Muhammad. What reason do you have to dismiss the traditional account? Why did the people object to this? I think the commentary by Al Jalalayn makes sense of this verse, which you have offered no explanation of. Lets play historians for a moment.

Now if he is such a hater, such an evil person. Why is he reporting this valuable news? Every day he simply reports what the islamists in the world are doing. Yes he has his opinions of islam, and people demonize him without really going into detail, like you are doing. Where are the bahais calling out their islamic brothers for the violence they commit every single day? Oh i know you call out the persecution in Iran against bahais and other minorities, but thats the only example you can give.

This is off topic however. THe topic is whether islam makes sense. So if you want to demonize Mr Spencer, then do it in another thread.

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi Matthew, with all due respect to you and Tony, I am kinda confused on a couple things here. Baha’i is considered an apostate brake off from Islam. I don’t think you as Baha’i would be seen as authentic. I know that you recognize all faiths and religion and equality of all men and women but in keeping with the title “does it make sense”, I’m not sure if you and Tony’s defense of Islam is making sense considering your founder was persecuted himself and died in exile. I would think in keeping with the peaceful tenants of your faith that defending Islam which in the Koran has some pretty violent stuff in it is making sense. I do respect what you believe and practice and I think the both of you are on CAF to have cordial dialogue with other faiths. Now maybe in a look at Islam and it’s teaching there does need to be a honest discussion of it’s violence towards women, Christians, Jews, non-believers and even yourselves. I don’t think talking about these things and the way it is practiced in Islamic countries should be swept under the carpet. Sometimes, I think that talking about difficult issues in religion or even problems isn’t trying to be violent or mean to anyones sincerely held beliefs. Am I making sense to you?

robwar - Another thoughtful question and we thank you for your fellowship, we appreciate these questions of clarification. You make very understandable sense. This is where we try too look at each Faith on its own merits. That is the Prophet and the Book, not the followers. If the followers were to get it 100% right there would be no need for prophesy and warnings.

I would ask does the Old Testament make sense to you and does it tie into the New Testament in your opinion? If you can answer yes, then you we see our view.

The Defense of Islam in some cases can be justified by the law of the Book. This would be no different than just wars fought by Christians.

But lets face it if we look back at Christianity and Islam there is a lot that can not be justified according to the Books. But who do we blame for this? Not Christ and not Muhammad of their words. It is man that has to answer for this and in fact we are!

Yes Islam makes perfect sense when read against the life and times of Muhammad an the people to whom He gave the Message.

That the Followers of the book have and still do persecute the Founder and the Innocent carriers of the message that they pray and wait for is what man tends to do with the new message. This is repeated in every age even though God does warn us not to! We are strange creatures!

God bless your journey to the Love and Knowledge of God

Regards Tony

 

[Barricade]

The question I have in response to the question in the thread title is this:

What is Islam?

Unlike Catholicism, Islam does not have an active interpreting authority to definitively and universally say what Islam is. And as Catholics, we believe Islam to be a false religion although it has some elements of truth in it. As such, trying to discover the true Islam is a fool’s errand because in truth, Muslims don’t know true Islam, they only know their profession of Islam. What is true Islam? I’d say true Islam is what ever the founder and architect of Islam believed it to be. Surely the founder of some ideology is truly the best source for authentic interpretation of that ideology; and so in the case of Islam that founder and architect is Muhammad. If Muhammad is the exemplary Muslim as Muslims believe him to be, the life and deeds of Muhammad seem to be the best window into true Islam.

So does Islam make sense? Judge the sources of Islam and conduct of Muhammad according to the measures of reason and the moral law and this question will be answered.

 

[Dave_B]

I work in a town with quite a few muslims. I see people who are religious, women who are dressed modestly, and think there is some good in that religion. It is easier for us to judge others without thinking about things in a respectful manner. We should try to be charitable with other faiths and not rush to judgement in my opinion.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

So reporting on Islamic terrorists makes you hateful? If you had read any of Mr Spencer’s books you would realize he generally relies on the Islamic hadiths for whatever he says about Muhammad. Hadiths Muslims in Islamic countries generally accept. His style sometimes might be a bit crude, but you cannot accuse him of being hateful simply because he reads the islamic sources and happens to find in them the interpretation of the terrorists as well as Orthodox Islamic authorities.

But this event is actually mentioned in the quran

SHAKIR: And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah’s command shall be performed. 33:37

and in case it be accused I have made this up

And when (idh is dependent because of [an implied preceding] udhkur, ‘mention [when]’) you said to him to whom God had shown favour, by [guiding him to] Islam, and to whom you [too] had shown favour: by manumitting him — this was Zayd b. Hāritha, who had been a prisoner of war before [the coming of] Islam (in the period of al-jāhiliyya). The Messenger of God (s) purchased him before his call to prophethood, and then manumitted him and adopted him as his son — ‘Retain your wife for yourself and fear God’, before divorcing her. But you had hidden in your heart what God was to disclose, [what] He was to manifest of your love for her and of [the fact] that should Zayd part with her you would marry her, and you feared people, would say, ‘He has married his son’s wife!’, though God is worthier that you should fear Him, in all things, so take her in marriage and do not be concerned with what people say. Zayd subsequently divorced her and her [obligatory] waiting period was completed. God, exalted be He, says: So when Zayd had fulfilled whatever need he had of her, We joined her in marriage to you — the Prophet consummated his marriage with her without [the customary] permission [from her legal guardian] and gratified the Muslims with [a feast of] bread and meat — so that there may not be any restriction for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have fulfilled whatever wish they have of them. And God’s commandment, that which He has decreed, is bound to be realized. Tafsir Al Jalalayn

Bahais and Muslims are so quick to deny anything bad said about Muhammad and that is the only criteria. If it is negative, you cannot trust it. If it embarrasses the prophet, well it obviously cannot be trusted. This is another aspect which makes little sense in Islam, how is it that only the sources you use and interpret are the correct sources but any sources Christians use well they can’t possibly be true?

Please start a new thread on Mr. Spencer. I’d be more than happy to discuss his lack of qualifications and issues I found in the intro and part of the first chapter of his last work. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=869251

 

[oldcatholicguy]

The question I have in response to the question in the thread title is this:

What is Islam?

Unlike Catholicism, Islam does not have an active interpreting authority to definitively and universally say what Islam is. And as Catholics, we believe Islam to be a false religion although it has some elements of truth in it. As such, trying to discover the true Islam is a fool’s errand because in truth, Muslims don’t know true Islam, they only know their profession of Islam. What is true Islam? I’d say true Islam is what ever the founder and architect of Islam believed it to be. Surely the founder of some ideology is truly the best source for authentic interpretation of that ideology; and so in the case of Islam that founder and architect is Muhammad. If Muhammad is the exemplary Muslim as Muslims believe him to be, the life and deeds of Muhammad seem to be the best window into true Islam.

So does Islam make sense? Judge the sources of Islam and conduct of Muhammad according to the measures of reason and the moral law and this question will be answered.

:thumbsup:Best answer I’ve seen to the OP’s questions and the reason for examining Muhammad’s conduct.

 

[sjays]

Matthew 7:15-18

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

1. It seems that Muhammad’s coming was unnecessary, he introduced nothing new, he only confirmed the judeo-Christian ethics and some of their thinking, like the end of times,…
   2)He was never prophesized before. The messiah was heavily prophesized, every jew agreed there was to be a messiah, while muslims look desperately for only one verse in the Bible that mentions Muhammad. And he is called the greatest of all prophets, the one that was according to him prophesized in the Gospels and the Torah. Plus no jew or Christian ever thought there was to be someone like Muhammad like they did for the messiah.
   3)The first 40 years of his life were not special, he was born, he married, lived and ordinary life, unlike the earlier prophets who lived ‘specially’ from their birth to their death.
   4)He waged wars on other people and conquered people instead of spreading the faith with peace.

While I do not disagree with your points here. Please allow me to offer a different perspective of this history.

The Arabs during Muhammad’s time, are into idol worship and many many different idols were believed in by these tribes. Not to mention the Arian christian heretics were banished into these territories which infected Islam.

That said, Muhammad rid these Arabs of their Idol worship and introduced to them “One Creator”. Was this providence? which prepared the soil clean to receive the True gospel of Jesus Christ?

Islam remains a prep’ed soil to receive the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yet the Muslims guard it and use it to advance their views and practices at the same time never allowing the True gospel of Jesus Christ to seed the ground, by rejecting it and falsifying the True Christianity, keeping the gospel of Jesus Christ from being heard to this prep’ed soil.

Does Islam makes sense? God works in mysterious ways and His ways are not our ways.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I work in a town with quite a few muslims. I see people who are religious, women who are dressed modestly, and think there is some good in that religion. It is easier for us to judge others without thinking about things in a respectful manner. We should try to be charitable with other faiths and not rush to judgement in my opinion.

Jesus said, to “beware of the leaven”. What matters to God is not what is seen on the outside but what is truly in the heart of man on the inside of man.

I agree with you, “we should never judge a book by it’s cover”. I have no idea who said this? So I cannot offer you my opinion.

Peace be with you

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Hadiths are contradictory.

The best evidence is that Aisha was older than Mary when she married Joseph.

Nope.
And, since you didn’t present any evidence, either for Mary’s age OR for Aisha’s, I’ll wait and give you a chance to come up with some.

Sunni Muslims are prevented because of holding Aisha up as a paragon of rectitude from admitting that she probably misled people about her age ( remember, claiming a very young age was very important for her to establish primacy among the wives of Muhammad, to help her father gain political control of the Islamic community after Muhammad’s death).

Question for you: why the admitted time gap between her marriage and consumation?
Think about it. This just about rules out the 19-yr old newly-invented theory.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Because the entire purpose of jihadwatch is to attack Islam, and spread fear of Islam and Muslims.

No, it is to present the truth to the world.
If that is considered an attack, then perhaps you should re-evaluate your allegiances.

In the same way, I would characterize Jack Chick’s website as a hate site, at least as references the Catholic Faith.

Truth vs. lies don’t qualify for “in the same way” in my world.
I’m rather insulted and astonished that you would claim they do.

The world has more than enough hatred. God does not want us to hate one another.

I don’t hate anyone. I do hate the violence that Islam is spreading throughout the world, though.

That is why websites attacking people because of their religion are so pernicious. They serve the cause of hatred and fear, and cause and inspire violence (cf: Breivik)

Robert Spencer doesn’t “attack people.” However, your claims, as they don’t have factual backing, might be construed as calumny. Interesting how you are doing exactly what you decry!

 

[daler]

Dear friends,
. Following this thread from the start, by reading through it this evening, a song by Dan Seals comes to mind called “We Are One”.
. This particular video clip is very well done (once you get past the commercial!) with children of different races and religions playing a role.
. When we exhaust our intellectual sides, sometimes an artistic presentation works very well in another part of our head, and heart.
. So for anyone who has four minutes to spare, this comes very highly recommended.

youtube.com/watch?v=zX0rqvF1uyk

PS Dan and his family received many threats, including death threats, for the release of this song some twenty (?) years ago, such that it was pulled from the airwaves for the protection of his family.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Dear friends,
. Following this thread from the start, by reading through it this evening, a song by Dan Seals comes to mind called “We Are One”.
. This particular video clip is very well done (once you get past the commercial!) with children of different races and religions playing a role.
. When we exhaust our intellectual sides, sometimes an artistic presentation works very well in another part of our head, and heart.
. So for anyone who has four minutes to spare, this comes very highly recommended.

youtube.com/watch?v=zX0rqvF1uyk

PS Dan and his family received many threats, including death threats, for the release of this song some twenty (?) years ago, such that it was pulled from the airwaves for the protection of his family.

We are not one and that’s the point. What does this have to do with the thread? Much of the criticism addressed to Islam has not been responded to by the bahai or muslims, so perhaps you should focus on that…

 

[daler]

We are not one and that’s the point. What does this have to do with the thread? Much of the criticism addressed to Islam has not been responded to by the bahai or muslims, so perhaps you should focus on that…

To me, when I read: “There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd”, all of God’s children are one, but if from the start, that is a sore point to be opposed from the outset, there is little that can be said.

The whole point is to step out of our intellect alone and accept something from the he"art" side of ourselves. If that stretches your comfort zone a bit too far, I will try to understand, but that is a stretch for me as well.

God bless you, brother, whether or not you are one…