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Petaro
Guest
Judge a tree by its fruit.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Except my Shepard is Jesus, I do not know who your Shepard is. We are not one, despite your denial of the fact.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Truth? "As far as the mainstream media is concerned, Christians in the Central African Republic are gratuitously targeting innocent Muslims. This story, however, will get little play. And they never mention how Muslims murdered 1,000 Christians over a two-day period. Or how 450,000 Christians fled their homes in the face of Muslim attacks. All that is fine; it’s only when Christians fight back that it becomes news: “humanitarian catastrophe — Muslims suffering in the CAR.” jihadwatch.org/2014/02/central-african-republic-muslim-group-threw-13-people-into-disused-fuel-tank-and-left-them-to-die
Yeah, apparently Mr. Spencer is ignorant on the reason why peacekeepers were sent to the CAR in the first place (to stop Muslim attacks on Christians and stabilize the country). But, given the site seems to ignore the seedier side of the anti-balaka forces (like ritual cannibalism, torture, beheadings, revenge attacks [yeah, not self-defense as taught by the Church], etc) it really shouldn’t be a surprise.
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TeddyBoy
Guest
This say’s it all,)He waged wars on other people and conquered people instead of spreading the faith with peace.
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openmind77
Guest
I agree that the way Islam was spread by Muhammad and those that followed him was not peaceful or gentle. However, in the OT, Joshua does even bother to spread his faith, he just kills every man, woman, child and baby - would you have preferred that? I think the instructions in the Koran are pretty clear about not hurting anyone who accepts their faith and even others who do not resist.
BTW, if you really want to talk about peaceful spreading of faith: FYI I come from a place in India that was colonized by the Portuguese for several hundred years and believe me, the way they tried to spread their faith (Catholicism) was far from peaceful - there were killings, torture, burning of temples, persecution of all Hindus who did not convert etc and thousand of refugees who fled (to the British territories or sometimes even to the Muslim territories).
Jesus may have been peaceful and non-violent, you can not say the same for all those who followed.
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tonyfish58
Guest
That our dear friend is unfortunately the Truth!
Islam and God make perfect sense, it is what we do that does not and adds confusion to it all!
Regards Tony
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daler
Guest
This is the crux of it. The Message of God comes to mankind when it needs it most. The people were not civilized. They were barbaric and butchers of their neighbors who would even bury their own daughters alive!!!
We tend to think of people as human beings. What makes us human beings is the civilizing effect of the Words of God, which comes to us through His Messengers. Even Jesus said, “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me.”
So, likewise, did Muhammad say that He only received the Revelation contained in the Quran, a process which happened over a period of 23 years. During all this time, He was never, ever, an aggressor. In fact, for the first thirteen years He and His followers bore every kind of persecution without lifting a hand to defend themselves in all that time.
When the oppression became extreme and relentless, certain to kill all who believed in the new Revelation, which was as medicine to the people, there came to Muhammad an edict from the Angel Gabriel which, in essence, was: “Take up the sword and defend the faithful.”
All of the battles which occurred during the lifetime of Muhammad were in defense of the people, not just Muslims, but against the extreme injustice which was pervasive all around.
It was only after the death of Muhammad that aggression within the ranks of Islam began. This was actually prophesied in the Bible, for the Ummayyads were in fact the appearance of “the Beast” of Revelation. This Beast was responsible for the bloodshed which exceeded any sense of justice, even as the wars of Christian upon innocents in virtually all parts of the planet took place during their conquests.
It is the same unrestrained impulse out of control which is responsible for the aggression of both Christians and Muslims in history. Neither can be justified. Neither can be ignored. It is ignorance to close the eye to the injustices of one’s own group and stare at the injustices of another. This is sheer hypocrisy!
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jimkhong
Guest
Much has been written in this thread about shorcomings of Muslims, some of it well-researched, some of it partially-researched, and a small minority (thankfully) not researched at all. The more I studied Islam, the more I came to the awareness that it is not an accident of history that I am not Muslim, but rather I could not be Muslim because it is contrary to some of my very fundamental values.
But first, I would like to categorise the shortcomings that most people (not just on this thread) accribe to Muslims as follows:
(1) Actions that are not part of Islam but done by Muslims, even those done in the name of Islam - these include the acts of violence against innocent civilians & destruction of churches, all the way to swearing oaths on the Quran and denial of women’s education. Basically, these are all non-Muslim acts using Islam as a cloak for their evil/ignorance.
(2) Traditions and teachings where Muslim clerics and scholars have been unable or unwilling to update to bring them in line with 21st century world views - these include women rights, and child marriages. (Here I will step into the debate and caution against taking the fatwas of a few muftis as the norm in the Muslim world - the more common sharia law in force in much of the world permit the marriage of a child at puberty. However, Islam is not monolithic and legal provisions differ as to the age of puberty, the gender of the children invovled, the controls in place againsts abuse, and the accomodation with civil law where they conflict with local Sharia interpretation). Basically, these are just Islam implemented badly.
(3) Beliefs steming from the Quran and the value system that underpins them - I will focus my post to this category. I started off with the idea that we are all chidlren of Abraham and in different circumstances, I could well be a Muslim if the accidents of my birth or events of my life were different. How, after much study, I realised that I could not be a Muslim as the following points to a very different value system to mine:
(In the interest of brevity, these are only summarised outlines but would be happy to expand on any fo them further to illuminate them.
(a) that God is all sovereign to the point that my role is to solely submit to him
The meaning of Islam is ‘total submission to God’. Now, I am not saying that God is not all-sovereign but while we do have a similar concept of humility before God’s will (‘thy will be done’), our langauge is rather different - much softer and less harsh. Islamic concept is that we are creation of God and as creatures of the creator, our only role is to know his will and submit to it. There is no place in this for human dignity and free will.
I do note however that this ides of total submission to God does provide Muslims with an acceptance of travails that this world can throw at them (eg., natural disasters are the will of God to be accepted without question). However, it often degenerate into fatalism with inadequate Muslim faith education (eg., the poor child died in a palyfround accident not because of poor facilities but because God wills it).
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because it does not provide for the dignity of man and our free will to cooperate with God in his plan of our personal salvation.
(b) that one could follow a scripture which is self-evident
I find much in common between Muslims and fundamentalist Christians - both believe that scripture is a direct revelation from God and has to be accepted without question. Muslims believe that the Quran is the earthly copy of a heavenly written revelation. As such, the Quran is revelation written by God’s own hand. (And what’s more, even if God was an Englishman, he spoke only Arabic - only the Arabic Quran is a valid written revelation) The Quran is the true revelation because it says so. There is no appeal to human reasoning, human values or anything outside of the Quran. The argument for the validity of the Quran is circular except for one that I came across - that the Quran is truly from God because of the beauty of the language (an argument I find as having too insufficent a criteria for truth; if anyone has any more arguments, please let me know). On the other hand, Christians know that the words of Jesus are true because it accords with justice, fairness and good human values.
While the Quran does not appeal to human reason, it does not mean that human reason has no place in Islam. It exist in order to illuminate and understand the Quran.
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because we need to be able to test soemthing’s authenticity by tests outside of itself. Otherwise, every book will be authentic simply it claims itself to be so.
J
jimkhong
Guest
(c) that the literal meaning of scripture over-ride natural justice
Because the Quran comes from God, one has to follow it to the letter. There is no study of the Quran like we do with the Bible. While we study the exegesis & hermeunetics, the historical background of time of writing, the intention of the author & the situation of the audience, the Muslim scholar only studies the philology & the classical Arabic language. There is no study of the historical context of the Quran because the Quran exist outside of history. As such, acceptance of the Quran is at a very literal level - even more so than Biblical literalist, who would at least attempt to reconcile the Bible with the realities of scientific study (with very odd outcomes), an idea which is alien to Muslims. This leads to obedience to the letter of revelation as they are all direct commands of God. There is a story in the hadith where people brought an adulterous woman to Mohammad to be judged. Mohammad commanded her to be stoned because the Torah says so (the Torah is one of the four revelations in Islam, the others being the Psalms, the Gospel - note the singular, not our Gospels - & the Quran). While care should be taken when referring to hadith as these are not authentic scriptures (Muslims grade the 30,000+ hadiths of different collection according to their reliability), it does illustrate a fundamental principle of Islam that the literal word of God over-rides everything else.
Having said that, mercy is a virtue in Islam: it is just that unlike Christianity, it is not obligatory - because the Quran did not make it so.
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because God’s revelation must exist within a human context and better the human condition by way of mercy and love.
(d) that God’s creation is static
The Muslim believes that God created everything and you do not question it or the purpose he had for creating. It is neither good or bad - it just is and you have to accept God’s creation as it is. Christians though believes that God’s creation is good but due to abuse of human free will, sin came into the world. We who are sinful are contantly tempted but we can overcome the weakness we have by faith in God. Muslim belief is that we cannot change the fundamental nature of God’s creation because God is all sovereign. This leads to, among others, the necessity for Islamic women’s attire. A fundamental nature of men is that they will be tempted by the flesh. In Christianity, we pray to God to help us resist tempatation if we do happen to be tempted. In Islam, you can’t change the nature of men and so women deal with it by covering up. As a man, I used to feel insulted at this reason for Islamic women’s attire until I understood how it ties up with the fundamental understanding of their religion.
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because it consigns God’s creation to the condition as we find it and we cannot improve things but merely accept things as they are.
(e) that God’s revelation is static and has ended
Muslims believe that revelation has ended with the handing over of the Quran to Mohammad. Revelation is now complete & God has nothing more new to tell mankind. Christians belief is the revelation is continuing and continues on to this day. The Holy Spirit continues to reveal God to us, illuminate our path and guides our daily lives. For the Muslim, this is not necessary as everything required to guide your daily life is contained in the Quran since God’s revelation in the Quran is final and complete. This is why the Muslim tends to look back at the situation at the time of Mohammad and the life of the Prophet himself. (With the slight exception of Sufis, who also look to the life of saints for guidance.)
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because I seek a God who walks personally with me everyday, guiding my path, not one who refers me to a user manual instead.
While what I outline above is normative among Muslim communities, Islam is not monolithic and not all Muslims have the same understanding of their faith. Still while there are differences, I note that variations among Muslims seem to be much less than variations among Christians. As such, I am confident that what I outline above is very much mainstream views held by Muslims but maybe, they would not like it described in the language I used - for that I apologise.
So, does Islam make sense? It does if your value system accepts a simple one-place guide to everything you need to know to live your life - with no need to question but just accept, irrespective of your condition. It is simple and complete.
So, is Islam unncessary? I don’t think so as it clearly has brought some spiritual order to pre-Islamic Arabic tribes and provided them with a more advance code of living than they had at that time. Islam in its zenith in the 8th-13th centuries have been the centre of learning, knowledge and religious tolerance (at least taking it beyond what passes as learning and religious tolerance in Europe in those days). Then, the greed of conquests by the Mamelukes, the Ottomans, etc etc led it to the path of decline until today.
Can Islam overcome the challenge of the modern world? It remains to be seen. Progress by Islam in Tunisia and Turkey, among others, to reconcile Islam with modern principles of democracy, the scientific method and universal rights of man, can hopefully lead them further on this path. But sometimes I despair. I have seen good educated Muslims suspending their trained judgement the moment the Islamic flag is waved. Still, it took us Catholics a good few centuries to move from the burning of Bruno and the Inquisition to today (and there are those who argue that we still have vestiges of regression in us) one can pray with our Muslim brethen as they walk the same path, even though they are not equipped with the doctrines of free will and of development of theology that Christians do.
Because the Quran comes from God, one has to follow it to the letter. There is no study of the Quran like we do with the Bible. While we study the exegesis & hermeunetics, the historical background of time of writing, the intention of the author & the situation of the audience, the Muslim scholar only studies the philology & the classical Arabic language. There is no study of the historical context of the Quran because the Quran exist outside of history. As such, acceptance of the Quran is at a very literal level - even more so than Biblical literalist, who would at least attempt to reconcile the Bible with the realities of scientific study (with very odd outcomes), an idea which is alien to Muslims. This leads to obedience to the letter of revelation as they are all direct commands of God. There is a story in the hadith where people brought an adulterous woman to Mohammad to be judged. Mohammad commanded her to be stoned because the Torah says so (the Torah is one of the four revelations in Islam, the others being the Psalms, the Gospel - note the singular, not our Gospels - & the Quran). While care should be taken when referring to hadith as these are not authentic scriptures (Muslims grade the 30,000+ hadiths of different collection according to their reliability), it does illustrate a fundamental principle of Islam that the literal word of God over-rides everything else.
Having said that, mercy is a virtue in Islam: it is just that unlike Christianity, it is not obligatory - because the Quran did not make it so.
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because God’s revelation must exist within a human context and better the human condition by way of mercy and love.
(d) that God’s creation is static
The Muslim believes that God created everything and you do not question it or the purpose he had for creating. It is neither good or bad - it just is and you have to accept God’s creation as it is. Christians though believes that God’s creation is good but due to abuse of human free will, sin came into the world. We who are sinful are contantly tempted but we can overcome the weakness we have by faith in God. Muslim belief is that we cannot change the fundamental nature of God’s creation because God is all sovereign. This leads to, among others, the necessity for Islamic women’s attire. A fundamental nature of men is that they will be tempted by the flesh. In Christianity, we pray to God to help us resist tempatation if we do happen to be tempted. In Islam, you can’t change the nature of men and so women deal with it by covering up. As a man, I used to feel insulted at this reason for Islamic women’s attire until I understood how it ties up with the fundamental understanding of their religion.
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because it consigns God’s creation to the condition as we find it and we cannot improve things but merely accept things as they are.
(e) that God’s revelation is static and has ended
Muslims believe that revelation has ended with the handing over of the Quran to Mohammad. Revelation is now complete & God has nothing more new to tell mankind. Christians belief is the revelation is continuing and continues on to this day. The Holy Spirit continues to reveal God to us, illuminate our path and guides our daily lives. For the Muslim, this is not necessary as everything required to guide your daily life is contained in the Quran since God’s revelation in the Quran is final and complete. This is why the Muslim tends to look back at the situation at the time of Mohammad and the life of the Prophet himself. (With the slight exception of Sufis, who also look to the life of saints for guidance.)
I cannot accept this tenet of Islam because I seek a God who walks personally with me everyday, guiding my path, not one who refers me to a user manual instead.
While what I outline above is normative among Muslim communities, Islam is not monolithic and not all Muslims have the same understanding of their faith. Still while there are differences, I note that variations among Muslims seem to be much less than variations among Christians. As such, I am confident that what I outline above is very much mainstream views held by Muslims but maybe, they would not like it described in the language I used - for that I apologise.
So, does Islam make sense? It does if your value system accepts a simple one-place guide to everything you need to know to live your life - with no need to question but just accept, irrespective of your condition. It is simple and complete.
So, is Islam unncessary? I don’t think so as it clearly has brought some spiritual order to pre-Islamic Arabic tribes and provided them with a more advance code of living than they had at that time. Islam in its zenith in the 8th-13th centuries have been the centre of learning, knowledge and religious tolerance (at least taking it beyond what passes as learning and religious tolerance in Europe in those days). Then, the greed of conquests by the Mamelukes, the Ottomans, etc etc led it to the path of decline until today.
Can Islam overcome the challenge of the modern world? It remains to be seen. Progress by Islam in Tunisia and Turkey, among others, to reconcile Islam with modern principles of democracy, the scientific method and universal rights of man, can hopefully lead them further on this path. But sometimes I despair. I have seen good educated Muslims suspending their trained judgement the moment the Islamic flag is waved. Still, it took us Catholics a good few centuries to move from the burning of Bruno and the Inquisition to today (and there are those who argue that we still have vestiges of regression in us) one can pray with our Muslim brethen as they walk the same path, even though they are not equipped with the doctrines of free will and of development of theology that Christians do.
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daler
Guest
Jim,
. I wish to compliment your commentary as being honest and fair from your point of view. It is probably very difficult for westerners in general to appreciate the beauty of the language of the Quran from the original Arabic to the sketches which appear in English translations, etc. My own understanding is weak, but sufficient to begin to comprehend the depth which escapes the reader in these efforts, which falls definitely short of conveying important nuances which transcend “mere reasoning”.
. There is more to it than what outwardly appears, and the more I learn of the symbolism contained within the language of Arabic itself, the abjad, etc, the more I see the Hand of God at work in fashioning a “language of Revelation”. Again, to any prejudiced reader who fails to study deeply and with pure intent, this will be shrugged off.
. For example, the first letter “alif” (or A) symbolizes Allah, and is upright, or vertical. The second letter “ba” (or B) is a horizontal line with a dot underneath, as this symbolizes itself lying prostrate upon the dust before God. This far predates the Prophet, by the way
.
. I gained much of my appreciation for the Quran through reading the Kitab-i-Iqan, or Book of Certitude, written by Baha’u’llah, Who unveils the hidden meanings behind symbolic terms not only in the Quran, but the Bible as well. Such things as were to remain “sealed” until the time of the end, i.e. Daniel, Revelation, Quran.
. As to how dated and archaic so much of what is found in today’s Muslim world, this is, in the Baha’i view, due to the Cycle of the Furqan having ended in the year 1260 AH, the Tree having born its fruit is now in a state of natural decay, having served its purpose.
. In reality, what can be argued in current times as to the validity of various belief systems has become moot, although to followers of the ancient Faiths this is not the case, and I mean no insult by it. Just stating a clinical observation from the context of hindsight, the information of which is readily available for scrutiny.
. There is more required to gain spiritual insight into the Revelation of the Quran than outward logic allows. This does not mean it must be set aside, but that the transcendent nature of the Word of God above human learning implies a heart that is neither bound by hate or love, tradition or dogma. Until the soul searches to its full capacity, this vision cannot be beheld, nor the truth contained encompassed therein.
. Light is more than the formula e=mc2 The word “Nur” (Light) has the abjad equivalent of 256. The word “Nar” (darkness) is 251 in the abjad. That which separates them is the Bab, the numerical value of which is 5. This Primal Point is the closing of the Prophetic Cycle beginning with Ahdam (Adam) and continuing through Ahmad (Muhammad), and the Cycle of Fulfillment to which it all was preparatory.
. I mention these few examples to indicate to you that Arabic is infinitely more than “just another language”. Its roots are not only ancient, but divine in origin. This is not numerology or anything of the sort, as the naysayers will contend. There are reasons why God gave us “7” days, why Moses warned the Jews that God would punish them 7 times, that Daniel prophesied 7 “half” times, each time being 360 days, the conclusion of which occurred in the year 1260 AH, or 1844 AD, that year being the conclusion as well of the 2300 days…
. Some Answered Questions, by Abdul Baha, covers these subjects quite well, and sheds light on the relevance of the religion of Islam and its authenticity from the standpoint of Biblical prophecy. Quite conclusively, in fact.
.
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
I had to truncate your post due to posting size limit, but a
and :clapping: for all of it.
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MartinJordan
Guest
I just read a quote from a Muslim former PM who said “Islam is seen negatively and considered as a difficult religion due to the attitude shown by Muslims themselves who don’t follow the religion’s true teaching”
“In Islam, the important thing is the syahadah which admits Allah as the only God, and Muhammad as the messenger. Other practises can be carried out slowly,”
and
“Actually, if Muslims really follow the real teachings of Islam, they will be smarter, more advanced, successful, considerate, generous and other positive nature”
Source: nst.com.my/latest/dr-m-muslims-must-portray-islam-as-simple-religion-1.570194
However, no mention about attaining Holiness.
Did Mr. M forget or does not Islam teach Holiness?
MJ
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Servant19
Guest
What is holiness Martin?I just read a quote from a Muslim former PM who said “Islam is seen negatively and considered as a difficult religion due to the attitude shown by Muslims themselves who don’t follow the religion’s true teaching”
“In Islam, the important thing is the syahadah which admits Allah as the only God, and Muhammad as the messenger. Other practises can be carried out slowly,”
and
“Actually, if Muslims really follow the real teachings of Islam, they will be smarter, more advanced, successful, considerate, generous and other positive nature”
Source: nst.com.my/latest/dr-m-muslims-must-portray-islam-as-simple-religion-1.570194
However, no mention about attaining Holiness.
MJ
Do you not think that being considerate and generous are part of “being holy”?
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MartinJordan
Guest
When I say Holiness is be Holy as God is Holy. Kind and generous is fine but so are plenty of atheists.
Christianity already teaches Holines long before Islam. Mr. M. is only interested in people embracing Islam.
MJ
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Servant19
Guest
Yes but what IS holiness Martin? You can’t say holiness is to be holy.
What does it look like in a human being?What features of a human being would you need to see to consider them to be holy?
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M
MartinJordan
Guest
To set our minds on things above. Not on passing things.Yes but what IS holiness Martin? You can’t say holiness is to be holy.
What features of a human being would you need to see to consider them to be holy?
.
MJ
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Servant19
Guest
Ok thank you
This is a state of being right? And it’s highest condition is seen in our actions, correct?
One can sit in their bedroom for 20 years, have food and drink brought to them, and never leave that room once, focussing their whole attention on higher things. Is that holiness in your eyes?
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MartinJordan
Guest
Are you speaking for me Servant? Can you not insult my intelligence?Ok thank you
This is a state of being right? And it’s highest condition is seen in our actions, correct?
One can sit in their bedroom for 20 years, have food and drink brought to them, and never leave that room once, focussing their whole attention on higher things. Is that holiness in your eyes?
.
MJ
S
Servant19
Guest
Martin please, reduce the sensitivity
I’m sincerely trying to understand FULLY what your meaning is from your post above, and the meaning behind the word holiness is critical to that. I say my thank you’d and my smiley faces to try to communicate my sincerity. Why can’t I ask you in depth questions without you feeling insulted?
J
jimkhong
Guest
Thanks daler for the compliment.
I agree that my Arabic did not go far beyond the alif-ba-ta that I learnt at school but while, I would agree that the Quran sounds beautiful to Arabic ears, my point is that such a subjective judgement like beauty of language cannot (to me) be a criteria to judge the authenticity of a revelation (otherwise, Shakespeare would be deified - well, maybe there is a religion somewhere …
).Your description of the Arabic letters seem to me to be retrospective accribing of things to God - a common technique that Christians used when Christianising pagan practices in the past. Nothing wrong but I don’t think it is the basis of authenticity, more a teaching tool.
Thank you for pointing out that faith is more than logic. But that is not saying that you need not have logic one you have faith or that having logic excludes faith. (“the heart has reasons that reason cannot reason”) Logic is like the pasta sheets in the lasgane and faith is the filling. The filling provides the nutrients and taste but the pasta sheets give it shape.
I am not saying that Islam is wrong (only God can be the judge to that) but all I am saying is that Islam does not make sense from the perspective of the values I hold. People who holds other values may find it appealing and many people do - some of these people seem to me to have different values in their professional life (eveidence-based judgement, a querying mind, etc) which did not transfer over when assessing religion).
God will decide how he wishes each person to be reached and that is not for me to judge as I trust his wisdom to decide that (I think as a Bahai, you would too). The only thing I ask is that if a Muslim decides that his/her values is at variance with Islam, he/she can choose to leave, legally freely and without recriminations from the community, which unfortunately is almost universally not the case today. There may be no compilsion in Islam but once you enter it, you cannot leave, even if your entering Islam was not your choice to start with but your parents’.
At the end of the day, as a Bahai, your acceptance of Islam, even if there, is still limited. I would like to ask any Muslims out there whether what I have posted is factually correct in what Muslims believe. So far, I have not met any, even if they do not like the language I have used.
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