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rinnie
Guest
Yes we most certainly do. But because the Jews and Muslims do not have this understanding of the One True God, the One true God becomes a false god?
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rinnie
Guest
Could you show me the Church teaching that states that because Muslims do not worship the Son, and only worship the One True God, that they are worshipping a false god?
You state that I have a misunderstanding of the CCC.
Then if I am misunderstanding please by all means give me another teaching from the CCC.
The CCC states that ALL Nations form but ONE community. This is SO because ALLL stem from ONE STOCK which GOD created to people the entire earth and because all share a common destiny namely GOD. His providence evident goodness and saving designs extend to ALL against the day when the elect are gathered in the holy city.
Now you seem to be claiming the CCC does not say that Muslims profess the One true God the Creator they only profess to. Then if it is enire my misunderstanding why does it say they are included in the plan of Salvation? Are you trying to say they are included n the plan of Salvation without professing to the One true God? Or are you saying thats what the CCC is saying? Please explain?
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MartinJordan
Guest
I’m in the camp of Muslims professing that they worship the one true God. Don’t worry
I was answering the point about knowing Jesus, which Muslims unfortunately undermine proper knowledge of the person he was;begotten of the Father, not made. They accept only a version Mohammed promoted.
MJ
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MartinJordan
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jakasaki
Guest
It;s because it is written in their Quran:I’m in the camp of Muslims professing that they worship the one true God. Don’t worry
I was answering the point about knowing Jesus, which Muslims unfortunately undermine proper knowledge of the person he was;begotten of the Father, not made. They accept only a version Mohammed promoted.
MJ
They say: “Allah has begotten a Son”. Glory be to Him! His is what the heavens and the earth contain; all things are obedient to Him. Creator of the heavens and the earth! When he decrees a thing, He need only say “Be”, and it is.
2:116
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MartinJordan
Guest
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rinnie
Guest
I understand what you are saying. The problem is as you state what he promoted.I’m in the camp of Muslims professing that they worship the one true God. Don’t worry
I was answering the point about knowing Jesus, which Muslims unfortunately undermine proper knowledge of the person he was;begotten of the Father, not made. They accept only a version Mohammed promoted.
MJ
He was not guided by the power of the Holy Spirit, this we know to be true. But what people seem to be doing here, besides, denying the truth that is given to us by the RCC is this.
They seem to believe that because others do not see Jesus as God, and do not have the true understanding of God in the Holy Trinity, makes God the Almighty a false god,
ITs like they are saying God cannot communicate with someone as he chooses, he can only communicate with someone the way they say.
When you read the scripture you cannot go to the Father without the Son, does not mean you cannot pray to the One True God if you do not have the understanding of the Trinity.
It means as the Church teaches you are praying to the One True God but not in the perfect sense as Jesus taught us, In the name of the Trinity.
Why can you not pray to the Father without the Son, or the Son without the Father or Holy Spirit? Simple because they are all one.
But just because you are praying to God as the One True God simply because you were not given the grace given to you by God to see this, does not make God false.
We know God as one in 3 persons. Why? Simply because by his grace he gave us this gift.
But to say others who only have the grace to see God as the God of Abraham, gives us not right to judge them, and call the God of Abraham false.
No more then for Muslims to say to us the Trinity God is false.
We only can do and use the grace given to us by the One true God to see what we see.
God WILL reveal himself as the Father Son and Holy Spirit to these people when he feels they are ready, No us. The bible tells us God has much to tells us, but he also tells us he will reveal to us when we can bare to hear it.
When God reveals himself to people who do not have the grace to see it, and then when it is truly revealed by Gods grace, and they still reject him, then its a whole different story.
But God does not hold one accountable for what he has not revealed.
And no one can reveal this to these people BUT GOD, through his Holy Spirit, and when he does if they are his people they will accept this.
But because he will choose when and where gives us no right to reject that we do indeed pray to the same God.
Does anyone in this world truly believe that our Pope John Paul ll would even consider to pray with these people if they worshipped a false god.
Sometimes I don’t know where people get this thinking.
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jakasaki
Guest
Not much explaination in the tafsir:Very interesting.
What is the point of this verse according to the Qur’an?
MJ
[116-117] They say “Allah has adopted a son.” Allah is above such things. As a matter of fact, whatever is in the heavens and on the earth belongs to Him and all are obedient to Him. He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth: when He decrees a thing, He merely says, “Be,” and there it is.
searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=2
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Mount_Carmel
Guest
It seems there is a lot of confusion and debate as to the meaning and context of the Arabic recorded in early Islamic texts with reference to the nature of Jesus. Mainstream Islam does however pretty consistantly deny the phyical and divine oneness of Jesus. That in effect ‘their’ Son of God/The Father would not/could not? debase/lower himself to have such a unity with any human.
May I refer those interested to the following site, for the Islamic ‘chapters and verses’, as it were? It opens up by infering that only ‘true Christians’, like Muslims see Jesus as prophet, thus already steering the idea that ‘true Christians’ are those who deny the Divinity of Christ!
www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Memsuah/son_of_god_bq.htm
May I refer those interested to the following site, for the Islamic ‘chapters and verses’, as it were? It opens up by infering that only ‘true Christians’, like Muslims see Jesus as prophet, thus already steering the idea that ‘true Christians’ are those who deny the Divinity of Christ!
www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Memsuah/son_of_god_bq.htm
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rinnie
Guest
Jesus warned us many will say Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name…
I never knew you depart from me you evildoers.
Jesus told us many will be false prophets doing mighty deed even, in his name. But just because a false prophet does things in the name of God, does not mean the false prophets God is false.
God even told us when they die and meet him he will tell them I never knew you .
Which is proof from scripture false prophets indeed can prophesy in the name of the One True God.
Jesus warned us they will come in the name of the One True God as false prophets, and also False gods also. Many will even claim to be him.
But where did he say that a false prophet has to come in the name of a false god.
He never said that, he said it would be in his name. God is not a false God.
Muhammad claimed to be a prophet in the name of God the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. Just as Jesus predicted. In his name.
I never knew you depart from me you evildoers.
Jesus told us many will be false prophets doing mighty deed even, in his name. But just because a false prophet does things in the name of God, does not mean the false prophets God is false.
God even told us when they die and meet him he will tell them I never knew you .
Which is proof from scripture false prophets indeed can prophesy in the name of the One True God.
Jesus warned us they will come in the name of the One True God as false prophets, and also False gods also. Many will even claim to be him.
But where did he say that a false prophet has to come in the name of a false god.
He never said that, he said it would be in his name. God is not a false God.
Muhammad claimed to be a prophet in the name of God the Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth. Just as Jesus predicted. In his name.
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rinnie
Guest
We could but I don’t think the debate is rather Muslims see Christ in the fullness of the Trinity. We know they do not.
The debate is rather the Muslims pray to the One God.
And the truth of the matter is not that Muslims see God as the Son, because it is quite clear they do not.
But the question is because they do not see God as the Son and as the Holy Spirit, they only see God as One, makes him a false god. This is a lie.
We never saw him as the Father and Son and Holy Spirit in one God until Jesus revealed it to us.
To make a long story short saying the Muslims pray to a false god because they do not see him in the Trinity, is no more true, they saying we pray to a false god because we SEE him in the Trinity.
The bottom line is the truth is we both pray to the One true God the God of Abraham, He is the same rather you accept the truth of his divinity or not.
Then not accepting him in the Trinity or us accepting him in the Trinity does not change what the truth is. He is the One true God, the same God we pray to the God of Abraham and creator of heaven and earth.
There is ONLY ONE!
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Mount_Carmel
Guest
So, is it a case that all those who take a monotheist line, in whatever way, worship the same ‘one true God’?
Bear in mind that the Abrahamic links in Islam are historically a ‘bolt-on’ afterthought to much that was practiced in and around the pagan Ka’aba, with the exeption of kicking out all of the gods, except one - that still retains much of the ‘footprint’ of the old Hubal ‘moon god’.
Would the God of Abraham reveal Himself to Muhammad in words that strayed from the truth? If not, then why the likes of the Satanic Verses and Abrogation in their ‘Holy Book’?
Bear in mind that the Abrahamic links in Islam are historically a ‘bolt-on’ afterthought to much that was practiced in and around the pagan Ka’aba, with the exeption of kicking out all of the gods, except one - that still retains much of the ‘footprint’ of the old Hubal ‘moon god’.
Would the God of Abraham reveal Himself to Muhammad in words that strayed from the truth? If not, then why the likes of the Satanic Verses and Abrogation in their ‘Holy Book’?
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concretecamper
Guest
You are adlibbing. I never said the CCC does not say that Muslims profess the One true God. I said that the CCC SAYS that. All the CCC does is recognized that Muslims profess they worship the One true God. That is WAYYYY different than acknowledging it as fact. AND God’s plan includes all. Just because His plan includes all does not mean all worship the One True God.
All I am saying is read what is stated in the CCC and do not expand the meaning beyond the words written. That is where confusion starts.
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rinnie
Guest
Of course not. God never revealed himself to Muhammad. Like the bible tells us, you can tell a person by his works.
But the RCC never taught that God revealed himself to Muhammad. And that is not what the question is.
The truth is Muhammad claimed the ONE TRUE GOD the God of Abraham revealed himself to him.
Look at Luther he believe God was torturing him. God don’t torture people. Thats the devils work.
But was Luthers God false? Of course not.
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concretecamper
Guest
237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the “mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God”.58 To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel’s faith before the Incarnation of God’s Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.
You are again reading into what the CCC is saying. no where in this text does it say
" states quite clear may I add that although they indeed have a limited understand of God does not mean they cannot indeed worship him."
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rinnie
Guest
Really, Read it again. It says the Trinity is a mystery HIDDEN in God and can only be revealed to you by God. But it was Jesus who could only reveal it to us.
They have a limited teaching of God. They follow the God of Abraham, Where was it clearly revealed in the O.T. that the God of Abraham was indeed the God of the Trinity as we know it.
Now you are telling me the God of Abraham taught us the Trinity? Read what the CCC says again.
You are telling me that have the full understanding and truth of the God of Abraham? Show me where they have that teaching.
The only truth they have of the one true God is he was the God of Abraham. That is a limited teaching.
Again it was not Abraham who taught us the Trinity it was Jesus.
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concretecamper
Guest
I am sorry that I clearly stated Abraham taught us the Trinity
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rinnie
Guest
I am saying that God as we know it was inaccessible to reason alone, or to Israels faith before the Incarnation of Gods Son.I am sorry that I clearly stated Abraham taught us the Trinity
Read the CCC,
Jesus revealed to us that God is Father as eternally Father with his relationship to Christ.
Muslims follow the God of Abraham in the faith of Israel. They do not have the whole truth of Christ in the Trinity. Would you not agree that is a limited teaching of the God of Abraham.
Show me where the God of Abraham does not accept the prayers of Muslims because they have a limited teaching of him in the Holy Spirit?
And how them not understanding or being taught that he is also the Trinity God makes him false. Show me a Church teaching.
Please show me a teaching that states the God of Muslims is a false god. I showed you the teaching of the CCC.
Go to NOSTRA AETATE its quite clear who their God is and who they worship if the CCC is not clear enough.
Now you show me your teaching to dispute the Church teaching.
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DaveBj
Guest
sighHuh? Are you rejecting the teaching of Muhammad that Allah that the God of Abraham is the one true God because he is a false prophet then right?
So let me get this clear because Muhammad said it, its a lie?
I don’t know how many different ways I can say this. Let me try again.
I am not rejecting the teaching of anyone that the God of Abraham is the one true God. If Satan himself stood in front of me and said, “The God of Abraham is the one true God,” I would say, “Yes! Amen! That’s right!”
What I am rejecting is the belief that the deity “revealed” by Muhammad under the name Allah is the God of Abraham, for the reason that the God of Abraham (YHVH), as revealed in the Old Testament (for the time being, forget about the Holy Trinity or the Father’s begetting of the Son) and Allah, as revealed in the Qur’an, have conflicting characteristics.
Let me expand on that last phrase. If two different prophets talk about their deities, and one says, “God is A, B, and C,” and the other says, “God is D, E, and F,” then is possible that the two prophets could have different revelations of the same deity, like looking at the same mountain from two different directions. But if one prophet says, “God is A, B, and C,” and the other says, “God is D, E, F, and not-C,” then the characteristics are contradictory, and the two deities cannot be the same deity. This is what we have. The characteristics of YHVH, as revealed in the Old Testament, and the characteristics of Allah, as revealed in the Qur’an, are not just different; they are contradictory to the point that the two deities cannot be the same.
I believe that 1) Muhammad may have been deceived by a demon who revealed a false god to him, claiming that this was the God of Abraham, or 2) Muhammad was mentally disturbed and imagined that he was getting a revelation of the God of Abraham, or 3) Muhammad made the whole thing up and deceived his followers in order to pull them away from polytheism (which he did hate). I believe that Muslims sincerely believe that they are worshiping the God of Abraham. However, I also believe that they are sincerely wrong.
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concretecamper
Guest
Pointless.
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