Does Islam worship the same God?

[ralphinal]

Good points. Let us look at these together…

Much of the difference is Different cultures, viewing things. Is most of the difference. As even 1 Corr: 13? says: different prophecies, different tongues…in the ‘church’

You are discussing two different things. Different cultures should not matter, as there is One God. He would be the same to all men in all times and places. Why would heaven in Islam be exclusively a place for pleasure while in Christianity its greatest reward is being in the presence of God? Why would God revert from using Father/child language into using Master/Slave?

Different gifts are an important part of any faith, as we all have gifts that we can bring. In some ways, if we do not understand that we cannot work together as humans. Now, if we all have different talents and gifts to bring, why does Islam ban someone from using a talent in art or sculpture to praise God?

Ever noticed how remarkeably Similar the rock bottom teachings of all major religions are? Budhism, Islam, Chritianity, Judaism all teach Same Basics: Help others, not self, help improve society, help the starving, the opprressed, etc, etc. Is the Proof of One God. Islam is really basically the most demanding Faith: Do not begin your meal until your your poorer ‘friend’ has finished the meal you gave him; Pray prone several times a day, etc.

There are two reasons for that. First, all faiths contain some level of truth. That said, that level may be only on the most basic “hurt no one else” level. Second, societies as a whole understand the need for these ideas. Religions, especially man-made ones, tend to focus on those things that a society deems of value, such as helping those in need and being fair and honest. Islam requiring more or less proves nothing at all. It was born in a harsh environment and keeps an all-in mentality.

And all teachavoiding war, defensive wars, fair fights: Islam teahes not to duel an unarmed, lesser armed opponent, in one-on-one. When Conditions are fair, equal

Then this is the most ignored teaching. From here, it seems like Islam teaches to ONLY attack those who are unable to fight back

Aware that Islam and the Jewish faith Name both Mean Peace?
Politiscians have own ideas.

Islam means submission, not peace. Now, there may be peace once you are a slave, but it is not true peace. Judaism translates into Jew, which is derived from the name of one of the Twelve Tribe’s Patriarchs, Judah. Judah means to praise God.

Now, which of those two names sounds more peaceful or even a better concept to follow?

 

[planten]

Your tone shows that you cannot tolerate anyone else statements, and I dont chose to argue with you.

Yes, it is better not to argue. Therefore a person should think before saying / writing anything.

I’ll say one thing. The Prophets including Moses were prophesing Christ and none else, therefore it makes no sense for me to throw out thier predictions, on the contrary the fact that their predictions were proved by Christ’s coming proves the love of God for every single human being.

**You can believe anything. I have no objection. You have your belief. I have mine. I have told every one that Moses predicted about the coming of a prophet after him from their brethren the like of Moses. a.s. He told special things about that prophet that God will put His words in his mouth. That any one not listening to that prophet, God will take account of him. That any one trying to be That prophet will be killed.

All of the above point to Muhammad and not to Jesus. My duty is only to tell what I know from Deut 18:18-20.

Moses foretold about a prophet to come after him of his likeness. Jesus told about the coming of another comforter, that is his likeness. Naturally that would be a person not a ghost. We Muslims believe in the prophecies of Abraham and Moses and Jesus. Only the understanding is different.**

The Laws of God in the Ten Commandments are meant for all people and Chritiainty arose from among the Jewish people. I am not a Jew because I was not born a Jew, but I am a Christian because I used my free will to accept the salvation that God is offering every human being.

**Is it my mistake? I have discussed with other christians. They do not follow the Mosaic law. But you are saying something different. Who to believe?
The christians, by the order (permission / teachings) of the church eat pork. They do not circumsize. They do not observe Sabath. All these things were done upto the time of Jesus a.s. Surely, these things were part of the commandments that is why they were being done.

Further proof is in the bible. It is written there that law is a curse. How can you convince me that I am wrong?**

We Christians never discarded the Laws given by God through Moses, how you came to this conclusion I don’t care, its not true and you cannot prove it.

**I have given my comments about it above. Perhaps you can prove it to me that you are doing the same things religiously that Jesus was doing in his time. I am sure you do not do that. So who is to prove anything? Please do not mind. My questions are direct but i do not mean ill for you. But I can ask for some explanation. I hope.

The life style of the christians is clearly against the orders of the Mosaic law. That is one proof. the other can be quoted from the bible where it is written that the church has absolved you from all repsonsibilities of the law. And that law was a curse.
It is not my duty to tell you all these things. You should be knowing them already.
**

Thou shall not kill means just that. We have no right under any circumstance to kill another human being

.

**
Please teach that to any people. It would be an incomplete command. Quite unreal. But let it be so. I wonder what was the commandment about killing in the Torah. You seem to say that those commands were for you too. So please tell me what was the command in Torah about killing. Thanks.**

As I said I dont wish to argue with you. You and I worship the same God, but you don’t follow His Holy Will, only your idea of His Will

.

**I sure try to do all as commanded to me by my prophet. I do not neglect any command. I am completely peaceful. I believe in Love for All and Hatred for None

You may discuss things without arguments. I will not mind anything as long as it is not abuse.
**.

God is a God of creation not distruction. If God loves you, then I cannot hate you that is what I believe. And I know you will never understand this because you believe in judgment. I believe that judgment belongs to God alone. I have no right to hate you, God never gave me that right. Therefore, I am more free to follow the Law of God because I do not have the burden of buring with judgment over others. One day, we both will stand before the throne of God, my suggestion is let’s work towards our own good and the good of others so that we are not ashamed to stand before God rather than you trying to prove something to me.

** I have to make use of my God given senses. I cannot let the intellect go waste. You may call it my judgement. It may be only my understanding. I try to understand… You call it judgement. I like your principle of Love. That is good. thanks.**

 

[bpbasilphx]

Read this article and decide for yourself…

orthodoxphotos.com/readings/future/

 

[Angelos]

Choosechrist, I must tell you that planten is an old man who has difficulty understanding and remembering our posts/answers. He mostly copies and pastes his frozen arguments over and over no matter how many times we rebut his childish and absurd allegations lacking proof and reference.

For instance, we have explained to him what apostle Paul means when he designates the Mosaic Law as a curse. Dear planten ignores that multitude of responses from different posters and keeps imitating the broken record. Consequently, his repetitive absurdities turn into a CURSE for this forum.

While dealing with old planten, plese keep the following facts in your mind:

1. Planten is not an orthodox Muslim, but the member of a heretical movement named Ahmadiyya. This is why most of his arguments are not supported by other Muslim posters here (he has a different version of the Koran!)
2. Planten knows nothing about the Bible. He simply repeats what he hears from anti-Christian Islamic websites or scholars.
3. Planten is an expert on irrelevance.
4. Planten sometimes loses his temper and openly curses Jesus by calling Him a liar whenever some posters here criticise Mohammad’s character. However, sometimes he says he likes and praises Jesus. His belief in Jesus depends not on his religion, but on the way non-Muslims view Mohammad.
5. Planten mostly contradicts himself by denying in his seond sentence what he said in the first.

This is our dear planten, who is generally the fun of this forum. We respect him because of his old age and weak memory. Please pray for him.

Peace,
Angelos.

 

[TomaszA]

TomaszA, it is agreed that there was no city of Makkah at that time. No Makkah any where. Nobody was living where ishmael and Hagar were left by Abraham. That was a wilderness.

We already have a problem. You acknowledge that the appearance of God at Sinai refers to the theophany Moses experienced on the mount. Since the passage is chronological, and Abraham came before Moses, if your tradition of Abraham building the Kaba were true there would already have to be a Mecca.

So there was no Makkah there at that time but there is Makkah now. So what would you please say about teh children of Ishmael. Where did they live and where did they go?

 

[TomaszA]

By TomaszA, has made a slight change in the translation to help the children of Israel. The original text was:

I’m curious why you attribute the translation change to me? I, like you, rely on translations, I simply am referring to more contemporary and accurate translations of the text.

My second question is, why do you think the translation you quote is the original?

 

[ralphinal]

I’m curious why you attribute the translation change to me? I, like you, rely on translations, I simply am referring to more contemporary and accurate translations of the text.

My second question is, why do you think the translation you quote is the original?

I bet he says that we do not have the original Bible, so it is all corrupted.

 

[hamba2han]

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.. … Genesis 21:17-21

Since Ismael (pbuh) lived in the wilderness of Paran, then should not his descendants i.e. the Arabs, be far better able to know where Paran is than anyone else?

And since there actually is the physical evidence of the well of Zam-Zam in Makkah which never dries up since time immemorial, is it then not logical to conclude that the Bible’s account of Hagar feeding water from a well to her son Ishmael (pbuh) in the wilderness of Paran as can be read in the passage above, does indeed appear to be accurate?

Therefore, is there any plausible reason for anyone to doubt that Makkah is indeed the Biblical Paran?

 

[ralphinal]

"And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is. Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation. And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink. And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer. And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt… … Genesis 21:17-21

Since Ismael (pbuh) lived in the wilderness of Paran, then should not his descendants i.e. the Arabs, be far better able to know where Paran is than anyone else?

And since there actually is the physical evidence of the well of Zam-Zam in Makkah which never dries up since time immemorial, is it then not logical to conclude that the Bible’s account of Hagar feeding water from a well to her son Ishmael (pbuh) in the wilderness of Paran as can be read in the passage above, does indeed appear to be accurate?

Therefore, is there any plausible reason for anyone to doubt that Makkah is indeed the Biblical Paran?

I am not sure that the map supports your claim. It would be difficult for me to accept that they made it that far south alone in that era, and there is no real proof that Abraham ever went there, save Muslim teachings.

 

[hamba2han]

I am not sure that the map supports your claim. It would be difficult for me to accept that they made it that far south alone in that era, and there is no real proof that Abraham ever went there, save Muslim teachings.

It is really a question of believing what is written in Genesis 21:17-21… plus accepting the real physical evidence of the well of Zam-Zam in Makkah… plus the historical acounts of the actual descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) regarding the location of where he lived.

Is there to be found an equally plausible alternative theory of where Biblical Paran is?

 

[TomaszA]

**
Since Ismael (pbuh) lived in the wilderness of Paran, then should not his descendants i.e. the Arabs, be far better able to know where Paran is than anyone else?**

The answer is no. I can’t remember where my ancestors were 5 generations ago let alone back to the time of Ismail. Besides, cultures often have legends surrounding their origins. I honestly don’t believe the Hijaaz possessed all the Arabs, nor that Arabs always believed the area around Mecca is Paran. I think these are legends that stem from Pagan and Islamic beliefs.

The Paran mentioned in Deuteronomy 33:1 was known to the Jews and we know for a fact that it’s not the Hijaaz.

And since there actually is the physical evidence

 

[TomaszA]

plus the historical acounts of the actual descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) regarding the location of where he lived.

Assuming the Arabs of the Hijaaz are descendants of Ishmael, what makes you think they always believed the Hijaaz to be Paran? Can you prove that Arabs outside of the Hijaaz also believed this? Can you prove that this is not simply related Islamic and Pagan Meccan belief?

 

[ralphinal]

According to Muslims, you are right.

According to everyone else, here are some options

keyway.ca/htm2002/20020429.htm
That puts it in the Sinai area. Not nearly as far South as Mecca.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran
Has it in a slightly different location, again, not as far south as Mecca.

Either one fits perfectly with the Biblical account.

If you look at the map of where Abraham is known to have lived from this site,
jesuswalk.com/abraham/0_intro.htm
you see that he was several hundred miles north of Mecca. The time-line does not allow for a three hundred plus mile trip in an era where you walked or rode a camel everywhere.

 

[planten]

** Biblical account about the path that Jews followed in coming out of slavery in Egypt is not correct. they do not know which way they came. And the Jews disturbed Moses too much, even disobeyed him.
And they were wandering all over the place for forty (40) years.

Therefore the bible OT account about Paran is not correct. It has been purposely put into the path in the bible to confuse the people about the wilderness of faran.

In other places, it is clearly written that Ishmael lived in the forest of faran (Paran). So Ishmael is there and Paran is also there together. he could not have lived in Syria or Jordan because sarah said that Ishmael will not inherit with her son Issac.

Okay, that means Ishamel and Paran were no where near palestine or nearby. That proves there is only One Paran which is well known even today, i.e. the area between Makkah and Madinah…**

 

[TomaszA]

Biblical account about the path that Jews followed in coming out of slavery in Egypt is not correct. they do not know which way they came. And the Jews disturbed Moses too much, even disobeyed him. And they were wandering all over the place for forty (40) years.

Take a look at this picture:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Do you see where the city of Kadesh-barnea is located? Now consider this:

"They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land."
Numbers 13:26

This is referring to the Conquest of Canaan. Moses sent spies to investigate the land from Paran. The city of Kadesh is in the wilderness of Paran. Since Kadesh is outside o the Hijaaz and some 700 miles from Mecca, Mecca can’t possibly be Paran.

Think about it logically. What is the rational in going some 1,000 Kilometers south from Sanai to Mecca only to advance those kilometers north again to attack Canaan? I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t make any sense. Perhaps Arabs call the portion of the Hijaaz “Faran,” fine, I’ll assume it’s true but you have to realize that what the Bible refers to as as “Paran” is not the same location that Arabs call “faran.”

God bless,
Tomasz

 

[hamba2han]

Actually, there is indeed an alternate route for the Exodus that has been proposed by some Biblical scholars:

http://www.carm.org/questions/graphics/sinai.jpg

To read more, kindly refer to this link.

And when you consider the following verses of the Bible, then perhaps there may well be some truth to the suggestion that the real Mount Sinai is in Arabia instead of Egypt.

And he said, The LORD came from Si’nai, and rose up from Se’ir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. … Deuteronomy 33:2 2

God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise. … Habakkuk 3:3

Teman is the Hebrew word for Yemen.

To read even more, you can also go to this webpage… of which the following is a tiny excerpt:

The ultimate irony?

Al Quds (qds in both Arabic and Hebrew means Holy) is Jerusalem in Arabic:

Now Mecca (Islam’s Holiest City) may very well turn out to be the long lost city of Kadesh (qds) Barnea. A major Jewish holy City, lost for 3,500 years.

 

[TomaszA]

hamba2han,

The alternate routes don’t affect the location of Kadesh or the wilderness of Paran, nor can they be used to suggest Mecca = Paran.

 

[hamba2han]

hamba2han,

The alternate routes don’t affect the location of Kadesh or the wilderness of Paran, nor can they be used to suggest Mecca = Paran.

On the contrary, I would think that it does indeed greatly affect the location of Kadesh (qds) Barnea.

 

[ralphinal]

Has anyone forgotten that Abraham was NOT with them when they left Egypt? Even if they had taken the alternate route, there is no reason to accept Mecca as where Ishmael ended up anyway. If the Qur’an is wrong about that, why should I care about anything else?

 

[TomaszA]

On the contrary, I would think that it does indeed greatly affect the location of Kadesh (qds) Barnea.

Let’s assume the alternative for Mt Sanai is true, Mecca is still some 600 miles away. It doesn’t make sense to say the Israelites traveled 600 miles south to Mecca, then travel back the 600 miles north and an additional 100 or so miles into Canaan. The point is, you still can’t associate Mecca with Paran.