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sedonaman
Guest
That is true! [However, all non believers are guilty by definition.]
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sedonaman
Guest
Wait a second. It’s possible. There is an old song called “I’m my own grandpa” that explains how; and if a man can be his own grandpa, why can’t Jesus be both Mary’s son and husband?
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sedonaman
Guest
Don’t you ever think about what you are saying? We’ve been over this ground before, but for those who are new, I will repeat my post:
Consider Old English of the Middle Ages with Modern English today:
In Old English:
Here bygynneth the Book of the Tales of Caunterbury
Whan that Aprill, with his shoures soote
The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
Whan Zephirus eek with his sweete breeth
Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open eye-
(So priketh hem Nature in hir corages);
Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15And specially from every shires ende
Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
The hooly blisful martir for to seke
That hem hath holpen, whan that they were seeke.
In Modern English:
Here begins the Book of the Tales of Cantebury
When in April the sweet showers fall
That pierce March’s drought to the root and all
And bathed every vein in liquor that has power
To generate therein and sire the flower;
When Zephyr also has with his sweet breath,
Filled again, in every holt and heath,
The tender shoots and leaves, and the young sun
His half-course in the sign of the Ram has run,
And many little birds make melody
That sleep through all the night with open eye
(So Nature pricks them on to ramp and rage)
Then folk do long to go on pilgrimage,
And palmers to go seeking out strange strands,
To distant shrines well known in distant lands.
And specially from every shire’s end
Of England they to Canterbury went,
The holy blessed martyr there to seek
Who helped them when they lay so ill and weak.
So the Bible had to change to keep up with the language that people spoke so that it would be understandable to those who are living now.
To claim that any language, including Arabic, is exempt from change in 1,400 years is the height of the absurd. In fact, if the Koran has not changed to keep up with the vernacular, we can say it is no longer the perfect word of Allah because it is less understandable, and the less understandable it is, the less perfect it is; and to the extent it is still understandable, it is to fewer and fewer people. Eventually, the language will become essentially extinct, and then NO ONE will understand it. Ironically, Muslims take pride in this by claiming the only true Koran is in Arabic. So the Muslim claim that it is the “perfect word of Allah”, as if to gain some prestige through membership in an exclusive club, is thus refuted and exposed for what it is.
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sedonaman
Guest
The Koran’s Affirmation of Judeo-Christian Apostles
The Koran’s Affirmation of Judeo-Christian Scriptures
The Koran’s Affirmation of Judeo-Christian Apostles
The Koran’s Affirmation of Judeo-Christian Scriptures
Islam is thus self-refuting because it affirms then rejects the source of its authority.
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dzheremi
Guest
Yes, I have read most of those quotes before, and honestly, they don’t amount to hill of beans. Notice that they say that they are affirming what came before without doing so in content. How can a new “revelation” confirm what came before it if it is clear (through the various very basic mistakes in the Qur’an concerning Christian theology) that the revelation does not know the details of what it is supposedly confirming? You and I and every Christian knows that Muhammad needed to make such claims in order to bolster his own legitimacy. In fact, see your own quote below on why this doesn’t work.
Exactly! The Qur’an first says “We confirm the authenticity of the Christian scriptures”, then proceeds to contravene and misrepresent them in major ways. It makes all this talk about respecting or perfecting what came before absolutely worthless.
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Seeker
Guest
The other point i’d like to make is, muslims always like to use the claim that Holy Bible not the Word of God, because our Book have titles like “book according to Mathew, Mark, Luke & John”, but we are to believe the quran with sura’s, like the Elephant, the Cow, the Ant, the Chair, the Sun…etc as God’s word.
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Agabriel
Guest
There was indeed a tie to Saddam and the Al Qaeda. And also Saddam and the OKC building being bombed.
The Third Terrorist - talks about the OKC bombing and the lawsuits in the time afterwards speaks volumes. And Bush asked that things like lawsuits be dropped after the Gulf War. This one is very telling of how the muslims helped Terry Nichols make bombs. He went to the South of the Philippines (Abu Sayaff) for that training.
There are two books that go into Saddam’s guilt with WMDs. He talks about the commercial airlines that carried out the WMDs before the war. Saddam suspected that no one would check commercial planes - and like idiots no one did. They went to Syria. ‘Saddam’s Secrets’,this is a very good book and you will learn some things about Iran too.
And the other book that came out late last year, ‘The Link, The Secret Relationship between Saddam and Al Qaida’. It has documents, and letters, that were released and shows them in the Appendices the ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam.
With the media on their relentless campaign to denigrate Bush it didn’t matter what kind of proof there was for Iraq. They hated Bush and therefore not too much got out except in the way of books, about Saddam and his ties to terrorism.
And he also gave money to the martyr’s families. But, that is just something we found that a lot of muslims do and that is why Bush shut down a lot of muslim charities. I am sure they found ways to funnel money to them anyway.
Basically, there was an agreement sometime around the early 1990s, or very late 1980s, between several people and Al Qaeda. Saddam was one of the ones who was in the group along with a few other notables. The Secret Relationship between Saddam and al Qaida (this is just an advertisement that summaries some points.
OKC bombing revelations
Iraq link to OKC, Sept. 11 attacks?
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Agabriel
Guest
I wanted to add to this comment. When the Muslims are practicing taqiyya, kithman, supporting the violent ones via their protests against Israel, or being Jihadists in any country torturing and killing unbelievers they are indeed behaving as muslims following Muhammad’s commands.
And if you take at face value at what they believe then they have accomplished their task of da’wa which includes taqiyya and kithman. If you take at face value what they tell you they will only post the Meccan, weak, surahs and not tell you that all those nicities such as brother, innocent, etc only apply to fellow Muslims. They never mention they divide the world up into unbelievers and believers, or dar al harb and dar al islam.
What other religion does this sort of thing to attract people to it? To lie? If there is one other than Islam, let me know.
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sedonaman
Guest
It seems they are applying the same test to Jesus they did to Mohammed; that is, Jesus did not produce these books like Mohammed is alleged to have produced [even indirectly] the Koran; therefore Jesus is just like the other prophets who wrote no book. I’m not sure this is an accurate assessment of the case with Mohammed. Jesus spoke his message, and his followers wrote it down after his death. Mohammed spoke his message and his followers wrote it down after his death. So, based on just those facts, I don’t see a difference that would lend more credibility to the Koran than the Bible, other than a Muslim’s belief that it is so. In fact, the opposite would be the case because Jesus claimed his words came directly from God and not through an angel, and if Jesus is a prophet as they claim, he couldn’t be lying, could he?
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tomarin
Guest
But would they say that Muhammad (or more likely the Qur’an) taught them to torture and kill? No, more likely they would rationalize their violence on the grounds that it was justified, as in self-defense (not unlike your elaborate conspiracy-theory posts above “linking” Sadaam to 9/11 and Oklahoma City in order to justify the Iraq War).
Unfortunately, religion and violence are frequent companions in history, and not just in the case of Islam.
No, I disagree fundamentally. It should be possible to take an objective, nonbiased view of their religion and evaluate its claims in the light of reason. You must take their interpretation of their religion seriously because they are the ones practicing the religion, not you (or me).
Well you’re right; people who want to convert you to their religion will often present a whitewashed picture of it and leave out the warts. I think Christians do that frequently (and often unconsciously).
I don’t know of any. I’ll ask a muslim about this when I have a chance. (Of course if you’re right they might just lie in response, so not sure what it would settle.)
I don’t think you have to build an enormous straw-man in order to discredit Islam. The likelihood of its claims about Mohammad and the Qu’ran seem very small to me.
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R_not
Guest
‘conspiracy theory’? And the site on the history of jihad is more than just a fluke - it has been going on for 1400 years with no end in sight.
The ‘conspiracy theory’ that you mention between Iraq/Saddam and Al Qaeda is more than a theory. I actually have the same book mentioned and there is actual correspondence, and also an agreement that Saddam signed with Al Qaeda.
There is another book besides the two mentioned - by Georges Sada, Saddam’s Secrets. Mr. Sada was Saddam’s General and outlines what happened to the WMDs. And it has some interesting things about Iran too and how Iraq oil got out with their help. Yeah, even after the war between them they still worked together to make some money on oil.
And as far as the OKC bombing if you searched the web for the lawsuits that went out against Saddam’s Iraq - you might wonder why they came up with the conclusion of ‘why did they suspect Iraq/Saddam had a tie to this catastrophe?’.
As for the whitewashing - the best thing to do if one is making a decision is to go to the basic teachings of the religion. and islam’s basic teachings are contradictory, violent (call for violence against unbelievers), saying that their god is a deceiver (how can you trust a liar?), etc.
It is their own texts that are a problem.
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tomarin
Guest
Let’s agree to disagree.
You seem to think that (and you may have some reason to) but the muslims themselves don’t seem to think that. Who’s right?
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R_not
Guest
Read the koran. Make a decision for yourself. From your sentence, you wouldn’t have to ask that if you read the koran or are a muslim practicing da’wa.
I have read the koran - and have downloaded all the accepted translations. I don’t trust them to put out an ‘infidel’ version of it to whitewash it. I have also downloaded all the translations of the hadiths too. yeah - it was one boring couple of days, but it is better to have it than to wish I downloaded it because they have gotten it censored. The USC censored some of the hadith verses and I have those verses so as to know what was censored because the muslims have not censored them. If the USC had a clue - they would be alarmed by the koran too, but they don’t really have a clue either.
And the muslims have a thing called taqiyya/kithman and will tell you whatever you want to hear. Sort of like the left wing media feeding the left wingers, and those who are ignorant of what the media is all about, whatever they wanted to hear to make them hate George Bush. Don’t go and find out for yourself what the truth is - heaven forbid.
Peace with infidels, in islam, means death, conversion or subjugation.
97% of jihad that is taught in the koran and hadiths is violent, 3% is of the peaceful - which includes ‘inner struggle’. And if you read that 3% some of it is to help the violent jihadists via feeding them, supporting them, etc. And then their spreading islam via da’wa which includes taqiyya/kithman. Don’t you wonder why so many muslim charities were closed down? Or wonder why so many are supporting hamas? They only care the infidels strike a muslim back - they don’t care about anything else. I know I have posted this before - but I am sure they are funneling their money in a different way now so as to escape the ‘radar’.
Here is one group that the USA government finally gave the boot to - CAIR. Of course they have already regrouped into a different group and called themselves something else now.
This is why only listening to the left wing medias you won’t read about this, just like you won’t read about the truth about Iraq.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Putting all the assumptions aside as they may be subjected to argument, one of my biggest problem with Islam/Muslims is their justification of sins. They can lie, kill and commit adultery in certain migitating circumstances. It’s hard to believe that the same God who we worships would allow these - in any cirscumtances.
BTW, I like your signature. Ps 137:6 is one of the most profound verses in the Bible and has powerfully inspired believers throughout the ages. The experience of God people in exile and in humiliation under foriegn kings can be a strong reminder for today believers should they commit the same folly of sinning against God and disobey His covenant.
God bless.
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tomarin
Guest
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tomarin
Guest
I have read the Qu’ran. Not recently, but I have read it, and I’m familiar with the rough outlines of the history of Islam. What I think you’re saying is that your interpretation of Islamic beliefs and practices will be found in a staightforward fashion in the passages of the Qur’an. But I doubt that’s the case because muslims read the Qu’ran and don’t interpret it the way you do, as do scholars of religion and religious history. Is it possible that the Qu’ran is simply a text and its passages are open to differernt interpretations? If you say no and there is only one “right” interpretation, it looks as if you are granting the Qu’ran a higher status than we even grant the Bible, which we believe is a divinely inspired work (and yet we as catholics believe that not all passages of the Bible have a straightforward meaning – such as the Book of Revelation – and also that some passages may have multiple meanings.)
I think that’s the Shi’a, isn’t it?
The left-wing media has largely accepted and even embraced the idea that the surge worked. I don’t know what other truth you may be referring to. But that’s a topic for another thread.
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lost_wanderer_1
Guest
If God controls my will then how come I can commit sin? So you mean to tell me that he enjoys my sins? Why would God go through this trouble of giving free will if he already knows what will become of me? Why wait for judgement day since I’m already judged? I think muslim free will is twisted. You believe in something you don’t understand making your God look like an idiot.
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wwolverine
Guest
God had already foretold about Jesus in the book of Genesis, and many other places, most in the book of Isaiah. The suffering Messiah. The crucifiction was a real happening and is also witnessed by many, but if the same God says it never took place there there is a serious misunderstanding somewhere. We also know that God never lies, and here the islamic text says that crucifiction never took place, means the Holy Bible is a lie or quran is a lie. For me I believe that the Quran is a complete lie and mohammad has taken muslims for a ride, and its all the doing of satan, cause he wants to win the battle of maximum souls at any cost.
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Mvrk
Guest
I Wonder why we didn’t investigate from mohammed’s culture and condition?
Mohammed never “Touch” Any Jewish or Christian doctrines. Land of Arab in the era of Hindu kingdom, they embrace Hinduism, Semi-Polytheistic religion.
Have you ever see the “Foot STEPS” of mohammad? Compare it with Foot Steps of Vishnu.
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Mvrk
Guest
Hmm… Please correct me, but i think Muhammed KNOW christianity at the first time when he visit Syria, and there he meet Bahira (a christian priest). Later he know Judaism from the Quraisy.
Muhammed married with Khadijah in Christian way (i assumed), because the witness of their marriage is Waraqah bin Naufal, an Ebionite.
But, even Muhammed meets Bahira and married with Khadijah, later he study gospel with Waraqah. Why Muhammed still give an offering to an unknown god inside Ka’bah? Ka’bah area is center of worships. (Logically after Muhammad meets Waraqa, he know a lot about Christianity. The fact, no… Even quran only mention that the Christian holy books only Gospel, the rest not mentioned.
And if we analyze the name, allah. The father of muhammad, Abdullah. Abdullah means the Slave of God. That time, muhammad not yet receive a revelation. (of course, even Muhammad not yet borned)
The possibility is two, the name allah in arab is refer to allah the father of Al-Lata, Al-Uzza and Al-Manah OR Allah that derived from Al-Elah that equivalent to the Christian God?
It’s quite out of topic, but if Islam have the same God as Christian and the Jews, i think God will never deceive it’s followers, never let war and robbery happened, never let slavery gone wild, and one more thing. God never Changes, he is consistent with His law.
“I, the Lord, do not change.” Malachi 3:6
compare with the revelation of Quran, so many verses canceled.
How’s that?
Muhammed married with Khadijah in Christian way (i assumed), because the witness of their marriage is Waraqah bin Naufal, an Ebionite.
But, even Muhammed meets Bahira and married with Khadijah, later he study gospel with Waraqah. Why Muhammed still give an offering to an unknown god inside Ka’bah? Ka’bah area is center of worships. (Logically after Muhammad meets Waraqa, he know a lot about Christianity. The fact, no… Even quran only mention that the Christian holy books only Gospel, the rest not mentioned.
And if we analyze the name, allah. The father of muhammad, Abdullah. Abdullah means the Slave of God. That time, muhammad not yet receive a revelation. (of course, even Muhammad not yet borned)
The possibility is two, the name allah in arab is refer to allah the father of Al-Lata, Al-Uzza and Al-Manah OR Allah that derived from Al-Elah that equivalent to the Christian God?
It’s quite out of topic, but if Islam have the same God as Christian and the Jews, i think God will never deceive it’s followers, never let war and robbery happened, never let slavery gone wild, and one more thing. God never Changes, he is consistent with His law.
“I, the Lord, do not change.” Malachi 3:6
compare with the revelation of Quran, so many verses canceled.
How’s that?
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