Does it bother anyone else the marriageable age was 12 before?

[Avermaria]

If I’m honest it doesn’t bother me that tweens or young teenagers could be married to each other. This is essentialy the same with middle schoolers dating, just without Holy Matrimony and an everlasting bond. What does bother me is that a 12 year old could marry someone twice her age and have the marriage be consummated the same night. The only thing that could have protected the child bride is her ability to say “no” to sex and so if the husband attempted anything it would be marital rape.

 

[CathBoy1]

Could I use culture as a reason why it woukd be ok?

In Romani and Traveller culture it is not uncommon to see girls get married at a very young age, not 12 but 14-16, to this very day throughout the world in England, Ireland, Scotland, America etc.

Travellers in Ireland are extremely devout Roman Catholics and young brides are very common, and very rarely do the Irish Travellers in Ireland ever divorce.

Likewise Romani’s have arranged marriages young couples and very young brides, with a very high success rate of these couples staying married throughout life.

The ethnic groups of Travellers and Romani’s have had the tradition of young couples and very young brides for hundreds of years, these people are distinct groups that rarely marry outside of their communities and yet have a very high success rate of couples being married throughout life from a young age, it has been a part of their heritage for perhaps up to 1000 years and continues to this very day.

 

[neophyte]

I think it would be extremely unwise and probably harmful. I class a twelve year old as a child. That a grown man would take a sexual interest in a child would undoubtedly be immoral in my opinion (we’re talking about the age of consent here). A child is not in a position to be able to make those decisions.

That has nothing to do with anything I’ve said, and it does nothing to prove your point.

 

[fredystairs]

[

So things were morally acceptable at one time but not at another?

What I see on this thread is that a lot of people are using today’s standards to judge people’s actions from hundreds of years ago. The situation today is a lot different than the situation say two/three hundred years ago. So if a father and mother had say, eight to ten kids, and if one of the parents died, then it might be acceptable for some of the children to be farmed out to be apprenticed or to become seamen. Back then, there were no government safety nets like there are today. People had to do what they thought best to take care of their children. If the children were apprenticed out, they would at least have a place to stay and something to eat and they could learn a trade. This would not be appropriate now, because of the safety nets.

A famous historian (Belloc, Chesterton, Carroll?) once said that “you cannot read history backwards.” You cannot use today’s standards to judge people’s conduct from hundreds of years ago because the situation and the worldview has changed.

Pax

 

[Isearch]

Several high standing theologians outright condemned sex at a too early age, even though society was such that it was necessary for them to marry then, and since child marriage was so rarely practiced it is fair to assume that the local ordinances of most places were stricter as well.

I want a source on this. Who are the theologians of old who wrote in this matter?

 

[Theban]

What theologians actually protested against child marriage? I thought it was widely accepted and not seen as wrong

I want a source on this. Who are the theologians of old who wrote in this matter?

Not child marriage, that could be legitimate because of the societal situation of the time, but sex within such a marriage is what I was talking about.

I don’t have a reference available right now, (and it’s a bit hard to look up online without attracting the attention of the police), but from the top of my head I know Albertus Magnus specifically talks about it in one of his treaties on the subject, and condemns it on medical grounds. I’ve also heard that Thomas Aquinas condemns sex at a too early age (at least for women) on the basis that it would corrupt them morally, but I haven’t read that myself and can’t verify it.

At any rate, that sex with children is immoral should not be controversial, and the fact is that people have recognized that since time immemorial, with a few rare exceptions to the rule. My issue with the Church is that it didn’t do enough to prevent it from happening, but when you look at basic moral teaching about sex and marriage it is clear that one cannot have sex with someone who is too young to even rear children (and medieval people were well aware of when that was).
And considering how rarely it was practiced it is safe to assume people did not widely approve of old men marrying children, or even children marrying each other.

 

[tuffsmurf]

If you think middle school dating and marriage is even remotely similair then your view of marriage is odd, to say the least.

 

[tuffsmurf]

Yet, the average age of first childbirth was almost 25 in some places in pre-industrial Europe.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

I think it would be extremely unwise and probably harmful. I class a twelve year old as a child. That a grown man would take a sexual interest in a child would undoubtedly be immoral in my opinion (we’re talking about the age of consent here). A child is not in a position to be able to make those decisions.

That has nothing to do with anything I’ve said, and it does nothing to prove your point.

You said I had to make a case for a twelve year old not to be in a position to have to consent to having sex. I think that pointing out that we are talking about a twelve year old child says enough.

If you think it’s ok then you have the floor to explain why.

 

[Freddy]

You cannot use today’s standards to judge people’s conduct from hundreds of years ago because the situation and the worldview has changed.

So what was morally acceptable then is, relatively speaking, not acceptable now. Is that your position?

 

[Lea101]

The only thing that could have protected the child bride is her ability to say “no” to sex and so if the husband attempted anything it would be marital rape.

Not even then. The idea of marital rape is pretty recent. Many people felt that sex is owed to the spouse. The idea of a husband raping his wife was bizarre (or vice versa).

On top of that, it’s expected for a virgin to bleed on her wedding night even though we know now that if you’re doing it right, she shouldn’t be bleeding to the point of staining sheets (usually).

Rape was seen as wrong mostly because virgins were ‘defiled’ and may be unmarriageable and that premarital sex was forbidden so it’s terrible that someone forced a person to engage in such an act, not necessarily because of the harm and trauma the person was facing.

 

[Lea101]

If you think middle school dating and marriage

They’re definitely not similar, but the idea of children that age falling in love and wanting to be together and have families isn’t odd. So a case for consent can be made, although yes, a 12 year old isn’t going to grasp the commitment that was going to be made.

 

[neophyte]

You said I had to make a case for a twelve year old not to be in a position to have to consent to having sex.

That’s not at all what I said. Not even close, and you’re smart enough to know it.

You’ve proven that you can’t support your position and aren’t even pretending to try. I’m done.

 

[tuffsmurf]

I don’t know about you, but when I was 12 romance was sending a boy a note that said ”do you want to be my boyfriend?” And then maybe holding hands in secret behind the school.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

You said I had to make a case for a twelve year old not to be in a position to have to consent to having sex.

That’s not at all what I said.

This is what you said:

“the onus is on you to show that it is immoral for a young woman of child-bearing age, who is capable of fulfilling the obligations of adulthood specific to her culture and who has sufficient emotional and spiritual maturity, to be married…”

And I have replied that if I suggested that a 12 year old that I knew seemed to be able to ‘fulfill the obligations of adulthood specific to her culture and who has sufficient emotional and spiritual maturity’ and that would be sufficient for me to have sex with her then I would be classed as some sort of pervert.

You seem to think differently. If you don’t then you’d agree with the proposal above. That’s up to you.

 

[fredystairs]

fredystairs:

You cannot use today’s standards to judge people’s conduct from hundreds of years ago because the situation and the worldview has changed.

So what was morally acceptable then is, relatively speaking, not acceptable now. Is that your position?

What would you say?

Pax

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

fredystairs:

You cannot use today’s standards to judge people’s conduct from hundreds of years ago because the situation and the worldview has changed.

So what was morally acceptable then is, relatively speaking, not acceptable now. Is that your position?

What would you say?

Pax

I’d say that you have made your position clear. I was giving you the opportunity to clarify it if you felt the need.

 

[fredystairs]

fredystairs:

Freddy:

fredystairs:

You cannot use today’s standards to judge people’s conduct from hundreds of years ago because the situation and the worldview has changed.

So what was morally acceptable then is, relatively speaking, not acceptable now. Is that your position?

What would you say?

Pax

I’d say that you have made your position clear. I was giving you the opportunity to clarify it if you felt the need.

I was asking whether you thought if what was morally acceptable then is, relatively speaking, not acceptable now.

Pax

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

So…

Do we have a verdict yet?

What is the youngest age somebody can morally have sex that is binding for all times and cultures?

 

[Lea101]

I don’t know about you, but when I was 12 romance was sending a boy a note that said ”do you want to be my boyfriend?” And then maybe holding hands in secret behind the school.

OH you have no idea the nonsense kids are doing these days. Thankfully I was in a girls school and I would have rather extracted my eyelashes than to have a boyfriend