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josie_L
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Daisies, my favorite, thanks.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
ahhh … good food, good art, and good music (if you like opera) …
I’ve been to Italy many times (amazing country, particularly Florence).
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josie_L
Guest
I love Italy, my parents came from there (and I have a lot of relatives still presiding there); my mother is from the south (sicily) and my dad from the center of Italy near Naples (Casserta). I’ve been to Italy only twice, my first time consisted of a tour, and my favorite city happened to be Florence followed closely by Sorrento (although Sicily or the parts I visited was stunning). Too bad I didn’t have time to stay longer. I love everything Italian, the opera too. “Finiculi Finicula”, my friend. Arriverderci, a la prossima.
P.S. By the way, I’ve been meaning to ask how many years have you been an atheist?
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
My mom’s side of the family is from a town just outside of Pompeii (at the footsteps of Vesuvius), not far from Casserta. I’ve also been to Sorrento (but never Sicily).
My atheist conversion (though I’m not sure I really like the term atheist so much, but I guess it sort of fits) was less than two years ago. Sometimes I feel like I should just call myself Episcopalian or something (my dad’s side of the family has that sort of background anyway). At least with those guys you can admit faith is a challenge for you, but you remain in the fold because their organization does many good things (the last Episcopalian church I visited had all sorts of programs, like: child care, single parenting workshops, help dealing with despair, substance abuse, homelessness, and so on). It was really a one stop shop for people in need.
I understand the Catholics do the same thing, but frankly I just couldn’t do Catholicism. First problem, I don’t believe in god. Second problem, since the only value I find in religion is that it provides an organization that can effectively deliver needed services to the poor I would find it impossible to join one the many churches that are exclusionary in nature. What I mean by that is “we’re the only church of truth” sort of thing (obviously not unique to Catholicism), and the if you’re not with us you’re against us mentality (which frankly I view as bigotry in sheep’s clothing).
However, what repels me from religion is the fact that if there were no religion in theory every active military conflict in the world would cease. I imagine mankind would still find reasons to fight with one another, but take religion out of the picture and you no longer have disputes that cannot be resolved with plain logic and reason. With religion there are simply irreconcilable differences that cannot be resolved reasonably (as far as I can tell anyway). After all if you truly believe in the idea that those who do not believe as you do are your enemy (or the scourge of god) then there’s no way there can be peace.
This is not to say every war in history has been caused by religion. The big ones almost never are in fact. Rarely will large governments (who are well developed; and you don’t become a well developed nation if you’re a primitive theocracy) fight with one another over something intangible like religion. It will always some sort of power struggle or struggle for resources. However, right now the biggest problem is in fact religion.
Even with Hitler arguably religion played a role. If there were no people who based their identity on an ancient myth then there would have been far fewer people for Hitler to pick on. I know the logic sounds peculiar (particularly to a religious person); but it’s sound if you think outside of the box that religion traps your mind in.
Did some god talk to a guy named Moses using the medium of a burning bush? Of course not. Judaism is a religion based on a collection of early myths from its surrounding neighbors, and then they built on it from there. They were a small quasi-nomadic people who had the natural human inclination for self-identity, importance, and power over their own destiny. The idea of a god who chose them (when from their perspective they were the least of peoples in that region at the time) must have been incredibly attractive. Of course the writers of the Old Testament not only knew this, but were probably chief among those who desperately wanted to create an identity for their tribe, and elevate them to a higher status. This is what became Christianity. Perhaps there was a guy named Jesus who had a ministry, but of course Paul was truly the builder of the Christian religion. Who knows why he did it … but one thing is for sure, it’s not because anyone cheated death or because a little angel told him to do it.
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josie_L
Guest
Oh, so you are then somewhat Italian (do you speak any Italian), did you grow up within that cultural background? You stated your dad was an Episcopalian of sorts, but you grew up Catholic, I’m a cradle Catholic. And I was immersed in the Italian way of life since I was an infant.
As for your conversion to Atheism, I’m glad you’re not one of those hard core atheists who have the need to belittle anyone of faith. I myself believe that faith needs to be shared with gentleness and reverence. No beating anyone on the head with the Bible, sort of approach. However, truth is truth, and I can no more deny the truth than deny the fact that I have blue eyes. If there is a feeling of exclusion that you sense it may have more to do with people rather than the faith. I mean the word “catholic” means universal. Catholicism therefore was meant for everyone (who would put God first). Also, doubts are common amongst people who believe. You know the saying “I believe help my unbelief” it makes perfect sense. Even Blessed Mother Theresa experienced something to this effect.
P.S. Did you lose your faith as a result of your education; it is a known fact that many leave the faith because of the learning they receive/d in college and/or university?
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humble_in_doubt
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As you say the truth is the truth & the truth is religion is false. I guess you could say I lost my faith because of my intellect (which of course was in part shaped by my education). Ironically, I went to Catholic universities for both my undergraduate and graduate degrees (go figure huh). However, I’m a few years past grad school, so I really came to reject religion after thinking about it long enough to figure out it’s just not real; and its falsity can be empirically proven (beyond a reasonable doubt, using the weight of circumstantial evidence).
Anyway I gotta hit the gym, but I’ll check back in later (good talking with you so far, you seem like a leveled headed person albeit religious
).
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josie_L
Guest
Most of what’s catalogued or written in the Bible may not be verifiable but archaeological findings have proven some elements of the Bible to be true. Off the top of my head I can’t remember the exact details (I will look into this) but I remember reading how there was a people/culture mentioned in the Bible which had never been proven to exist until an archaelogical dig was able to find such evidence of their existence, and this all due to the writings in the Bible. Thus far there has been no contradiction with Science and what the Bible has to say. It is only those who interpret it wrongly that see contradiction. Remember the CC is still in the process of developing doctrines and formulating Truth. This Truth is not incompatible with the truths found in Science, in fact I believe that Science will do much to promote the Truth found in the Bible. I am convinced of this.
You see Religion has a problem, I see secularism and fanatical zealots has the problem (mainly in Islam). I think religion, but more to the point Islam, in many instances, is providing fodder for atheists who want to get rid of all religion. I myself dislike intensely those who choose to make a mockery of God’s name. I can’t tell you how much their hypocrisy disturbs me. But Atheists are doing the world harm by lumping all religions together with the likes of such menacing zealots.
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prodigalson12
Guest
Most of what’s catalogued or written in the Bible may not be verifiable but archaeological findings have proven some elements of the Bible to be true. Off the top of my head I can’t remember the exact details (I will look into this) but I remember reading how there was a people/culture mentioned in the Bible which had never been proven to exist until an archaelogical dig was able to find such evidence of their existence, and this all due to the writings in the Bible. Thus far there has been no contradiction with Science and what the Bible has to say. It is only those who interpret it wrongly that see contradiction. Remember the CC is still in the process of developing doctrines and formulating Truth. This Truth is not incompatible with the truths found in Science, in fact I believe that Science will do much to promote the Truth found in the Bible. I am convinced of this.
You see Religion has a problem, I see secularism and fanatical zealots has the problem (mainly in Islam). I think religion, but more to the point Islam, in many instances, is providing fodder for atheists who want to get rid of all religion. I myself dislike intensely those who choose to make a mockery of God’s name. I can’t tell you how much their hypocrisy disturbs me. But Atheists are doing the world harm by lumping all religions together with the likes of such menacing zealots.
There is plenty of evidence that supports what is stated in the bible, some of the more profound pieces are buried in secrecy. They found Noah’s ark, they found unfossilized Dinosaur bones, yet it’s not accepted as common knowledge. Furthermore, they have buried the truth in areas that could do so much good, but the powers that be prevent them from surfacing. A couple of examples, free permenant magnetic power generators, the cure for Cancer as well, all known, all invented and reinvented, yet still not accepted by mainstream society.
Along religion being the root of all of our conflicts, that’s a farce and a pretty typical excuse made. We are fighting wars now, not over religion, but over money. Once money is no longer an issue, it will be about power and control, once that is not an issue it will be yet another idealogy, it simply never ends because we as a race have not evolved to the point of ending the madness. What if all of the world accepted and practiced what Christ taught? Love they neighbor as thy self, that one alone ends all war and conflicts. You see, it’s not so backwards of an approach, in fact, it’s highly evolved.
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josie_L
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Agreed, but I also think that Islamic fundamentalists are doing things that could result in there being a world war, possibly. It won’t take much time before one of these radicals gets their hands on WMDs, Iran is in the process of building one. I don’t like that at all.
God protect us from hateful religious nutcases and irreligious, self-aggrandizing, masters of their own universe nuts.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Most of what’s catalogued or written in the Bible may not be verifiable but archaeological findings have proven some elements of the Bible to be true. Off the top of my head I can’t remember the exact details (I will look into this) but I remember reading how there was a people/culture mentioned in the Bible which had never been proven to exist until an archaelogical dig was able to find such evidence of their existence, and this all due to the writings in the Bible. Thus far there has been no contradiction with Science and what the Bible has to say. It is only those who interpret it wrongly that see contradiction. Remember the CC is still in the process of developing doctrines and formulating Truth. This Truth is not incompatible with the truths found in Science, in fact I believe that Science will do much to promote the Truth found in the Bible. I am convinced of this.
It’s not to say that the bible doesn’t contain some accurate depictions of historical events, in fact I’m almost sure that some events described by scripture are historically accurate. What I do contend is that the ancients didn’t have the level of knowledge we do today. They didn’t understand the physical world, much less view it through the prism of science.
Hence, they would explain natural phenomena (that they lacked the capacity to explain otherwise) as manifestations of divine power. They didn’t know why an eclipse or earth quake happened. To them it must have been some god who was angry at them.
I don’t necessarily lump them all together, nor is my objection based on the notion that religion causes problems (albeit it does as I mentioned previously). My objection is simple, it’s not true … none of it happened (I’m speaking of the supernatural and mythological ways the ancients explained the physical universe).
As far as Islam goes, I would blind not to notice they’re the worse of the bunch. At least Christianity had to give way to western progress (in other words, as it evolved, it synthesized itself with science, human rights, and so on). Islam makes no such concession (at least in its most radical forms). The god man of Christianity at least had characteristics that we can all agree were virtuous (I would argue perhaps finding some of its roots in stoic philosophy). Whereas the prophet of Islam was a tyrant and pedophile, and his despicable nature permeates throughout his theology.
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humble_in_doubt
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No, WE protect ourselves from lunatics (like Islamic fundamentalists and Iran). Thank an American soldier, sailor, airman, or marine … not some fictitious god.God protect us from hateful religious nutcases and irreligious, self-aggrandizing, masters of their own universe nuts.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
you don’t actually believe this stuff do you? The mind is a terrible thing to waste, don’t waste it on reading paranoid literature on the internet or wherever you get this nonsense from.
no will argue that virtues such as loving our neighbor or treating others as we expect to be treated aren’t good virtues, of course they are. The thing is these virtues long predated Christianity.
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josie_L
Guest
Firstly, I’m not American, I’m Canadian, however, that being said, I am very grateful for those who have put their lives on the line for the sake of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I however believe in the power of prayer (especially since my near death experience). But having said that I also believe that we are meant to take action against evil, I think its agabriel whose signature, and I’m paraphrasing, “all it takes for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing.”. So I have no problems with what you said, albeit I cannot control all factors either, that’s when God comes in handy. I will always seek his protection.
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Christine2009
Guest
I understand your confusion. I used to think the word “Catholic” in the creed, meant “The Catholic church”,but the word Catholic literally means," the whole Christian body" or “church”.
So when I am in a church and we recite the apostles creed,I can use the word catholic with no problem. Because we are just saying that we believe in “the one whole christian body of Christ,or Church”.
Maybe the reason you think it was written by Catholics is because the Catholic church is basically the oldest christian church around.
Some history facts I found:
“Writing in Greek somewhere around the year 200, Irenaeus describes a creed that has some similarities to the Apostles’ Creed, and may have been a precursor. He presented his creed not as something new, but as something the church had been using for a long time.”
“The Creed was believed to be an accurate summary of what the apostles taught.”
“The Creed provided a doctrinal basis for different churches to accept one another, and to reject those who did not accept the basic truths.”
I hope this helps you understand.
Only Jesus Christ our Lord God almighty deserves the title of HOLY.
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josie_L
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humble_in_doubt
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Josie:
Like I said virtues like love your neighbor are OK (although Nietzsche made some compelling arguments against that concept … but that’s another story & overall I’m not a huge fan of Nietzsche). However, as I said previously, the virtues of Christ were around long before his ministry. Here’s a Wikipedia excerpt on Stoicism:
Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual’s ethical and moral well-being: “Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature.” This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; “to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy", and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all alike are sons of God.”
Sound familiar?
Remember, Paul was a Greek Jew, and benefited from an extensive education in the Greek classics. It’s said by some that Jesus Christ was a part of the Essene movement within Judaism (a group that was mentioned in writings by Josephus, Pliny the Elder, among others). His theology was not unlike Essene theology. Anyway food for fodder.
In the end I don’t expect anyone here to listen to me. I only hope that I can impress on people the past mistakes of your own Catholic Church, and the current wave of fundamental Christianity, who are making the same mistakes by interfering with medical science and imposing an ethical standard based on false presumptions that can obstruct important progress in potentially life saving work. When I say false presumptions I don’t mean whether or not god exists. There’s no proving that question either way (even though I would argue the demand to prove a negative is illogical … but I’d rather leave that one alone). What I mean is notions like an unfertilized fetus is human life, or cloning (even a fetus or organ) is wrong. What happens if one day in the near future science finally develops quantum computers and we figure out how to make human being immortal? What will the response of religion be? After all … their entire selling feature is a hope for eternal life (and it plays on our natural fear of death). Moreover, what happens if physicists discover how to travel back in time?
You know sometimes it occurs to me that religion may have been useful for allowing our imagination to believe these things are possible. All it takes to begin an endeavor is to first believe it can be done. At the same time religion itself must be tempered, and it’s zealous aspect quelled. Anyway, I just like to ponder weird stuff … I’m geeky that way.
Like I said virtues like love your neighbor are OK (although Nietzsche made some compelling arguments against that concept … but that’s another story & overall I’m not a huge fan of Nietzsche). However, as I said previously, the virtues of Christ were around long before his ministry. Here’s a Wikipedia excerpt on Stoicism:
Stoicism teaches the development of self-control and fortitude as a means of overcoming destructive emotions; the philosophy holds that becoming a clear and unbiased thinker allows one to understand the universal reason (logos). A primary aspect of Stoicism involves improving the individual’s ethical and moral well-being: “Virtue consists in a will which is in agreement with Nature.” This principle also applies to the realm of interpersonal relationships; “to be free from anger, envy, and jealousy", and to accept even slaves as "equals of other men, because all alike are sons of God.”
Sound familiar?
Remember, Paul was a Greek Jew, and benefited from an extensive education in the Greek classics. It’s said by some that Jesus Christ was a part of the Essene movement within Judaism (a group that was mentioned in writings by Josephus, Pliny the Elder, among others). His theology was not unlike Essene theology. Anyway food for fodder.
In the end I don’t expect anyone here to listen to me. I only hope that I can impress on people the past mistakes of your own Catholic Church, and the current wave of fundamental Christianity, who are making the same mistakes by interfering with medical science and imposing an ethical standard based on false presumptions that can obstruct important progress in potentially life saving work. When I say false presumptions I don’t mean whether or not god exists. There’s no proving that question either way (even though I would argue the demand to prove a negative is illogical … but I’d rather leave that one alone). What I mean is notions like an unfertilized fetus is human life, or cloning (even a fetus or organ) is wrong. What happens if one day in the near future science finally develops quantum computers and we figure out how to make human being immortal? What will the response of religion be? After all … their entire selling feature is a hope for eternal life (and it plays on our natural fear of death). Moreover, what happens if physicists discover how to travel back in time?
You know sometimes it occurs to me that religion may have been useful for allowing our imagination to believe these things are possible. All it takes to begin an endeavor is to first believe it can be done. At the same time religion itself must be tempered, and it’s zealous aspect quelled. Anyway, I just like to ponder weird stuff … I’m geeky that way.
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josie_L
Guest
So the Stoics were pagans and believed they could be sons of Gods, but did that make them God or sons of Gods. You act like the first century Christians were idiots who didn’t know the difference between the dead and the living. They saw the resurrected Christ, why else would they have suffered torture and death rather than recant their faith in the resurrected Christ. They may have not known how the world functioned, or whether the Earth revolved around the sun, but they were not without common sense and/or wisdom. Please stop insisting that the first century Christians were deluded, because it makes no sense to die for a delusion. These people saw with their own eyes Jesus who had resurrected from the tomb.
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humble_in_doubt
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btw I added to my post quite a bit (I didn’t realize you were online). Anyways, that is a common argument in support of Christianity & I concede it is the most compelling case you have. We do know that people were martyred for something they believed to be true. Whether or not these martyrs actually witnessed any miracles is wholly another story. It’s most likely they did not (since most cases of martyrdom occurred in Italy and to a lesser extent in the Hellenic world). There is of course the case of Peter and Paul, however, the historicity of events surrounding those men is sketchy at best (and unsubstantiated).
So in fact your claim that the first century Christians who suffered martyrdom actually saw a man rise from the dead is most likely false (I don’t even think most religious scholars would argue that one with any degree of vigor).
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josie_L
Guest
Atheism or rather Secularism must be tempered as well, especially it’s more zealous adherents and/or tenets.
Why do you wish to take away the faith of those on this forum, do we sound fanatical to you, what point would there be in stating the wrong that the CC has done, do you think we are not aware of it already? Saints and sinners preside in the Church of Christ.
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josie_L
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There were many who were killed in Jerusalem and its surrounding areas, read the book of Acts in the Bible. I’m also sure there is some corroborating evidence as well, I will look for it.
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