Does it matter who is more HOLY?

[josie_L]

Donald De Marco is a Catholic professor at a seminary. Hmmm, he doesn’t like Nietzsche, go figure? If you only get your information from religious zealots then expect bad information (at least a substantial portion of the time).

With regard to your question, sadly mankind it seems will always need a religion (until we ourselves can provide an alternative). However, it is a force that only serves to make us less informed and less rational. At the same time it does seem to temper some people (with regard to their personal behavior). So it’s a mixed bag. To answer your question I guess I wish religion would evolve (perhaps like American Episcopalians have; along with their liberal protestant counterparts like PCUSA).

Does this mean conservatives are anti-science/progress? And what do you mean by evolve: the CC believes in evolution, in reason and logic, in the inalienable rights of all human beings, including the unborn, in providing for the sick (think of all blessed Mother Theresa’s work with aids victims is accomplishing) and the poor. In fact, the Catholic Church is the most charitable institution in the world. How is that not evolving? And do not bring up the whole condom/contraceptive issue in Africa, because throwing condoms at people will more than likely give them a false sense of security. Condoms are only 90% effective.

“A draft report for the UN’s AIDS agency has found that even when people use condoms consistently, the failure rate for protection against HIV is an estimated 10 percent, making them a larger risk than portrayed by many advocate groups. The report, which looked at two decades of scientific literature on condoms, is likely to fuel the debate that pits proponents of abstinence, who say that the Bush administration should abandon or sharply reduce condom promotion, against health specialists, who say that condoms play an integral part in preventing the spread of AIDS.”

“Edward C. Green, a senior research scientist at the Harvard School of Public Health, said that the data on condom effectiveness should help set policy and that people in developing countries should know about that risk. One chance in 10 of condom failure is “not good enough for a fatal disease,” Green said.”

thebody.com/content/art28493.html

And now, I would like you to read this quote from Einstein:

“Being a lover of freedom, when Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion tot he cause of truth;** but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks.** Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Does this mean conservatives are anti-science/progress? And what do you mean by evolve: the CC believes in evolution, in reason and logic, in the inalienable rights of all human beings, including the unborn, in providing for the sick (think of all blessed Mother Theresa’s work with aids victims is accomplishing) and the poor. In fact, the Catholic Church is the most charitable institution in the world. How is that not evolving? And do not bring up the whole condom/contraceptive issue in Africa, because throwing condoms at people will more than likely give them a false sense of security. Condoms are only 90% effective.

proper use of condoms is over 98% effective (sad to say but some people in this world are so illiterate you even need to train them on proper condom usage).

“A draft report for the UN’s AIDS agency has found that even when people use condoms consistently, the failure rate for protection against HIV is an estimated 10 percent, making them a larger risk than portrayed by many advocate groups. The report, which looked at two decades of scientific literature on condoms, is likely to fuel the debate that pits proponents of abstinence, who say that the Bush administration should abandon or sharply reduce condom promotion, against health specialists, who say that condoms play an integral part in preventing the spread of AIDS.”

This is no doubt a report that includes the third world, which probably has failure rates much higher due to improper condom usage. That just goes to the point that they need more literacy training and better sex education.

“Edward C. Green, a senior research scientist at the Harvard School of Public Health, said that the data on condom effectiveness should help set policy and that people in developing countries should know about that risk. One chance in 10 of condom failure is “not good enough for a fatal disease,” Green said.”

and yet to spite the fact that Africa is the continent where the Christian religion is growing the fastest, they continue as the region with highest prevalence of HIV infection, while in the western world HIV rates among well educated people (where secularism is growing the fastest) is nearly non-existent. You see there’s always a way to play with any statistic to sway it in your favor; but the true facts don’t lie.

And now, I would like you to read this quote from Einstein:

“Being a lover of freedom, when Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion tot he cause of truth;** but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks.** Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

Hmmm … still doesn’t prove god exists (and interestingly Einstein never became Catholic as far as I know).

 

[josie_L]

proper use of condoms is over 98% effective (sad to say but some people in this world are so illiterate you even need to train them on proper condom usage).

 

[josie_L]

Ok, stupid question time, humble, how do you wrap your quotes the way you do? Mine don’t allow for a point by point refutation, it’s like a quote within quote. Anyways, if you try to refute, you won’t be able to do so with the original post.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Ok, stupid question time, humble, how do you wrap your quotes the way you do? Mine don’t allow for a point by point refutation, it’s like a quote within quote. Anyways, if you try to refuting, you won’t be able to do so with the original post.

I don’t wrap them my dear … because I never fear a point by point rebuttal. Why? Because I’m always right

 

[josie_L]

I don’t wrap them my dear … because I never fear a point by point rebuttal. Why? Because I’m always right

cough, cough, humility, cough, cough, get some, cough.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

cough, cough, humility, cough, cough, get some, cough.

I thought I’d get an amusing response (I’m sorry to disappoint Josie, but I’m in my hotel room sipping a few drinks, and I though I’d provide some provocative stupidity).

 

[josie_L]

I thought I’d get an amusing response (I’m sorry to disappoint Josie, but I’m in my hotel room sipping a few drinks, and I though I’d provide some provocative stupidity).

That was my “amusing response”. I was just funning around, I knew from the get go that you weren’t serious about the comment you made. God bless, humble.

 

[josie_L]

Hi humble, it’s me again, do you think I’m a religious zealot?

 

[prodigalson12]

Hi humble, it’s me again, do you think I’m a religious zealot?

<pokes another stick into the beast to see if it will react. lol

 

[llblarosa]

Let’s talk for a time about our personal holiness. What are the practical implicatons of holiness, for example?

My Impressions:

1. The holiest people I have read about will not admit they are holy. They know full well their own human wretchedness, and it causes them pain.
2. I have recently been reading St. Teresa’s Interior Castle. She speaks of the progression towards God as that of progressing through many mansions (or levels, if you will). How do we get to these levels? By prayer and by conquering sin mainly. I have to say that I can identify with some of the phenomeon she speaks of as happening in my life as well, which makes me wonder about/desire the upper levels.
3. Let us suppose that I have some habitual venial sins in my life (as we all do, of course). I will give you a specific example. I work from home now, but I used to go to my place of employment daily, where all the women I worked with, including me, would talk terribly of others incessantly. Now, I knew this was a bad thing to do, but I seemed powerless to stop it. Try as I might to refrain, all it would take would be for someone to say someone else had talked about me, and off I would go about others incessantly. Now, I would repent when I got home ( I was a Protestant at this time), but the next day would bring much the same thing. For a long time, I let this go even though it bothered me terribly. However, I eventually decided to work from home, and the problem ceased. Now, I believe God blessed me for this decision. It was a step toward Him, you see.
4. I think the Catholic Church is a better vehicle for this type of sanctification for several reasons. First, the confessional does help us get rid of sins that worry our hearts. When I go to confession, I never fail to emerge with a lighter, happier soul in love with God again. Now, if I resolve to go home and bring God into my life more consistently (pray more, read more, align myself more with other Christians, etc), then I am able to conquer other sins. (Incidentally, St. Teresa tells us that if we make even small efforts in this area, God rewards us many times over, and will even at some point simple lift the sin from us, and it will be as if it never was, so there is great help for this). If I let the world take my life over, then I inevitably fall back again. Second, we have the entire legacy of the Saints to help us. There is a wealth of help and encouragement in their writings that is far greater than that of contemporary writers. Third, we have the Eucharist and other Sacraments through which grace is conferred upon us. The Eucharist can be taken daily, which is a challenge I know, but I believe many blessings are to be had from it. Starting every day with God firmly in our minds and our bodies strengthens us.
5. All of the above is very difficult. It challenges us to put our faith where are mouths are. It is a narrow way.
6. All people, of any faith, can begin this process. Even an atheist can begin it with a search for truth. God will lead them through it. It is my belief that this search will lead them to the Catholic Church. But none of us is finished with our search yet.
7. I have many more thoughts on this topic, but I will leave it here for now.

Blessings to all,

Lisa

 

[prodigalson12]

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. [Romans 3:23]

sums it up well for me…

 

[josie_L]

<pokes another stick into the beast to see if it will react. lol

I’m not trying to provoke a response from him, I’m actually quite curious has to how he perceives me? If he thinks I’m a religious zealot, has he tends to use that term quite a bit?

 

[josie_L]

Let’s talk for a time about our personal holiness. What are the practical implicatons of holiness, for example?

My Impressions:

1. The holiest people I have read about will not admit they are holy. They know full well their own human wretchedness, and it causes them pain.
2. I have recently been reading St. Teresa’s Interior Castle. She speaks of the progression towards God as that of progressing through many mansions (or levels, if you will). How do we get to these levels? By prayer and by conquering sin mainly. I have to say that I can identify with some of the phenomeon she speaks of as happening in my life as well, which makes me wonder about/desire the upper levels.
3. Let us suppose that I have some habitual venial sins in my life (as we all do, of course). I will give you a specific example. I work from home now, but I used to go to my place of employment daily, where all the women I worked with, including me, would talk terribly of others incessantly. Now, I knew this was a bad thing to do, but I seemed powerless to stop it. Try as I might to refrain, all it would take would be for someone to say someone else had talked about me, and off I would go about others incessantly. Now, I would repent when I got home ( I was a Protestant at this time), but the next day would bring much the same thing. For a long time, I let this go even though it bothered me terribly. However, I eventually decided to work from home, and the problem ceased. Now, I believe God blessed me for this decision. It was a step toward Him, you see.
4. I think the Catholic Church is a better vehicle for this type of sanctification for several reasons. First, the confessional does help us get rid of sins that worry our hearts. When I go to confession, I never fail to emerge with a lighter, happier soul in love with God again. Now, if I resolve to go home and bring God into my life more consistently (pray more, read more, align myself more with other Christians, etc), then I am able to conquer other sins. (Incidentally, St. Teresa tells us that if we make even small efforts in this area, God rewards us many times over, and will even at some point simple lift the sin from us, and it will be as if it never was, so there is great help for this). If I let the world take my life over, then I inevitably fall back again. Second, we have the entire legacy of the Saints to help us. There is a wealth of help and encouragement in their writings that is far greater than that of contemporary writers. Third, we have the Eucharist and other Sacraments through which grace is conferred upon us. The Eucharist can be taken daily, which is a challenge I know, but I believe many blessings are to be had from it. Starting every day with God firmly in our minds and our bodies strengthens us.
5. All of the above is very difficult. It challenges us to put our faith where are mouths are. It is a narrow way.
6. All people, of any faith, can begin this process. Even an atheist can begin it with a search for truth. God will lead them through it. It is my belief that this search will lead them to the Catholic Church. But none of us is finished with our search yet.
7. I have many more thoughts on this topic, but I will leave it here for now.

Blessings to all,

Lisa

That was really nicely said, I hope you find your way to sainthood. God bless.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

<pokes another stick into the beast to see if it will react. lol

Wow … I’m a beast now? This is what I mean when I talk about religious bigotry. There’s no way you can be religious and not be a bigot. You inevitably have to think less of other people (those who disagree with you). The same goes for every religion on earth, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever.

Moreover, it always seem to attract those who can’t stand on their own; and those who need a crutch to boost their esteem or whatever.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

Let’s talk for a time about our personal holiness. What are the practical implicatons of holiness, for example?

My Impressions:

1. The holiest people I have read about will not admit they are holy. They know full well their own human wretchedness, and it causes them pain.

Obviously it must be painful if you think you’re wretched? I suppose it can psychologically help people deal with their weaknesses, but I’d say depravity is just an excuse.

I think people are better off telling themselves they don’t have to be a wretch, and the first step is stop believing you are one. Next, take self-responsibility (stop think deterministic forces outside yourself can control your behavior, or that your human flesh is incapable of discipline and greatness).

1. I have recently been reading St. Teresa’s Interior Castle. She speaks of the progression towards God as that of progressing through many mansions (or levels, if you will). How do we get to these levels? By prayer and by conquering sin mainly. I have to say that I can identify with some of the phenomeon she speaks of as happening in my life as well, which makes me wonder about/desire the upper levels.

but prayer only works because like meditation it’s repetative training. In other words yes you can train yourself to avoid making poor choices, like you can train yourself to drive a vehicle or be an accountant. There’s no invisible god involved here … just ourselves and learned behavior.

1. Let us suppose that I have some habitual venial sins in my life (as we all do, of course). I will give you a specific example. I work from home now, but I used to go to my place of employment daily, where all the women I worked with, including me, would talk terribly of others incessantly. Now, I knew this was a bad thing to do, but I seemed powerless to stop it. Try as I might to refrain, all it would take would be for someone to say someone else had talked about me, and off I would go about others incessantly. Now, I would repent when I got home ( I was a Protestant at this time), but the next day would bring much the same thing. For a long time, I let this go even though it bothered me terribly. However, I eventually decided to work from home, and the problem ceased. Now, I believe God blessed me for this decision. It was a step toward Him, you see.

so you’re saying the CC has a better training methodology for avoiding sin … but you think it’s something more than that (it’s not I assure you).

1. I think the Catholic Church is a better vehicle for this type of sanctification for several reasons. First, the confessional does help us get rid of sins that worry our hearts. When I go to confession, I never fail to emerge with a lighter, happier soul in love with God again. Now, if I resolve to go home and bring God into my life more consistently (pray more, read more, align myself more with other Christians, etc), then I am able to conquer other sins. (Incidentally, St. Teresa tells us that if we make even small efforts in this area, God rewards us many times over, and will even at some point simple lift the sin from us, and it will be as if it never was, so there is great help for this). If I let the world take my life over, then I inevitably fall back again. Second, we have the entire legacy of the Saints to help us. There is a wealth of help and encouragement in their writings that is far greater than that of contemporary writers. Third, we have the Eucharist and other Sacraments through which grace is conferred upon us. The Eucharist can be taken daily, which is a challenge I know, but I believe many blessings are to be had from it. Starting every day with God firmly in our minds and our bodies strengthens us.

when you have no invisible god who you believe is able to forgive your poor behavior then what’s to stop you from repeating that behavior? Yes, you can train yourself through prayer, meditation, or other behavior modification techniques. However, when you believe in no god your guilt is really disappointment in yourself, concern about the consequences of poor choices, and so on. In other words the only an atheist can deal with guilt is to stop making poor choices. However, we also lack the added guilt because we don’t believe in hell (just as we don’t believe in heaven).

1. All people, of any faith, can begin this process. Even an atheist can begin it with a search for truth. God will lead them through it. It is my belief that this search will lead them to the Catholic Church. But none of us is finished with our search yet.

but knowing religion is a false (and just a byproduct of our collective imaginations) why would an intelligent atheist want to work to become Catholic? It sounds like a rather absurd proposition.

 

[josie_L]

Wow … I’m a beast now? This is what I mean when I talk about religious bigotry. There’s no way you can be religious and not be a bigot. You inevitably have to think less of other people (those who disagree with you). The same goes for every religion on earth, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or whatever.

Moreover, it always seem to attract those who can’t stand on their own; and those who need a crutch to boost their esteem or whatever.

Humble, that was just a figure of speech, I don’t think he meant to insult you, although I could be wrong. I think he justs knows where you stand on religion and faith.

And how can you in the same breath claim all religious people are bigoted without looking like a bigot yourself for saying such?

If I need a crutch, alright I’m ok with that, in fact, I wouldn’t mind two. God is what sustains me in my times of trials and tribulations. I’m not asking you to believe me.

 

[josie_L]

Humble, that was just a figure of speech, I don’t think he meant to insult you, although I could be wrong. I think he justs knows where you stand on religion and faith.

And how can you in the same breath claim all religious people are bigoted without looking like a bigot yourself for saying such?

If I need a crutch, alright I’m ok with that, in fact, I wouldn’t mind two. God is what sustains me in my times of trials and tribulations. I’m not asking you to believe me.

P.S. I never thought you were/are a beast.

 

[prodigalson12]

yes, it was a figure of speech, come on humble, give me a break.

 

[humble_in_doubt]

And how can you in the same breath claim all religious people are bigoted without looking like a bigot yourself for saying such?

btw … I didn’t take the devil inference to heart (whether or not he was joking around … doesn’t concern me much, I mean it does say in your bible that unbelievers are evil, it might even use the word beast).

With regard to bigotry … saying an atheist is bigoted against the religious simply because he or she refused to believe it is a logical fallacy. There is an objective standard to bigotry & it is not mere intellectual disagreement (though the religious would like to frame as such probably to defame atheists, which is understandable … since it helps them retain believers through the “us against them” psychology).

Some believers are able to transcend this (because they’re fairly logical reasonable people). However, if you believe the bible is the inspired word of your god then you must believe that god views me as evil (because I don’t believe he exists).

However, you make compromises because you really don’t want to view others (particularly those who don’t warrant such a label) as evil for such an arbitrary reason.

Religion at its core uses basic human psychology quite effectively. It’s designers were not stupid men. Did Paul believe he really saw Jesus on that road to Damascus? I’m not really sure, but if I were to speculate I would say no he didn’t. Did Moses really split a sea in two parts to facilitate the escape from Egypt? There’s no evidence of this … so it’s just a fable. Did Muhammad receive a revelation from god? Did the incarnation of Vishnu as allegedly told to Arjuna really happen (as Hindu’s believe). These are all ancient fables, no more true than the myth of Remus and Romulus (and their mother the Vestal Virgin Rhea Silvia), or Zeus, or the Odin of Norse mythology.