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CatholicSoxFan
Guest
How does a Catholic respond to a Protestant who cites John 20:31 to support that Scripture is sufficient for salvation? It seems that’s pretty much what it says.
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zz912
Guest
Simple answer, no, actually the opposite.
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
What John is saying is that there is a LOT more to the Christian faith, but he can’t possibly write it all out. He wants his audience to know is that he wrote it down to testify to the Church, that what the Church preaches was what it was given by the Apostles, who received it from Jesus.
He was writing as one of few remaining, or only remaining Apostle, and the first generation of Christians were dying out. These were the original witnesses who could testify to the truth of the faith that was preached by the Church. So he wanted to write enough that later audiences would be able to see that the Church was proclaiming what it received from the Apostles.
When John wrote this, there wasn’t a “Bible”. There were several letters and writings of the Apostles that were read during Mass, along with the OT (but they called them Scriptures). The Church declared a couple centuries later that these 27 books and letters were also Scripture as well. If you asked a Christian then about the New Testament, they would tell you about the Eucharist, because Testament means Covenant. So you would be asking about the New Covenant, which is the Body and Blood of Christ. They wouldn’t have a clue that you were talking about the 27 books we call the NT.
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book. 31 But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
What John is saying is that there is a LOT more to the Christian faith, but he can’t possibly write it all out. He wants his audience to know is that he wrote it down to testify to the Church, that what the Church preaches was what it was given by the Apostles, who received it from Jesus.
He was writing as one of few remaining, or only remaining Apostle, and the first generation of Christians were dying out. These were the original witnesses who could testify to the truth of the faith that was preached by the Church. So he wanted to write enough that later audiences would be able to see that the Church was proclaiming what it received from the Apostles.
When John wrote this, there wasn’t a “Bible”. There were several letters and writings of the Apostles that were read during Mass, along with the OT (but they called them Scriptures). The Church declared a couple centuries later that these 27 books and letters were also Scripture as well. If you asked a Christian then about the New Testament, they would tell you about the Eucharist, because Testament means Covenant. So you would be asking about the New Covenant, which is the Body and Blood of Christ. They wouldn’t have a clue that you were talking about the 27 books we call the NT.
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sousley
Guest
Where to begin? John said this to explain the purpose for the writing of this gospel; it’s a pretty tough stretch to make it say Scripture is sufficient for salvation. Furthermore, this exegesis doesn’t match well with the Scriptures read as a whole. It only serves to pit one Bible verse against another in a game of Bible badminton that has no winner.
Historically, there was no New Testament (or finally canonized OT) when John wrote this. The Sola Scriptura argument came later and is read historically backwards back into scripture after it was formally canonized. The only “what does Scripture say” references at that time in history were allusions to the OT not the whole that we have today.
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dmar198
Guest
Since that passage was about the Gospel of John, and not the whole Bible, the most it could prove would be Sola John, not Sola Scriptura.
po18guy
Well-known member
Ask those who claim this if they are seeking only a “sufficient” relationship with God. Christ came that we might have life, and life in abundance (John 10:10). That far surpasses being merely “sufficient.” Maybe point out that man lives by “every word that flows from the mouth of God” (Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4), but that every word of a living and infinite God is not and cannot be in scripture. It must be found elsewhere.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
You mean like “on your heart”, since God said, “I will write it on their hearts”?
po18guy
Well-known member
He writes His law on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16), but not “every word.” We’re not big-hearted enough to hold all of that!
J
JRKH
Guest
Well - ask him is the bible can save him…
He will respond no - only Jesus saves.
So the answer to the above is no - scripture is not sufficient for salvation.
The question then becomes does Scripture contain all that is necessary for us to know - in order to believe in Jesus and to accept him, have faith etc and to be saved. This is what one means when they are saying that scripture is sufficient.
In all honesty I have to say yes Scripture does contain all the necessary information for attaining salvation.
I can say that because, just as Scripture points to Christ, it also points to the Church.
Scripture calls for a profound unity. A unity in love that will show the world that we are disciples of Christ. It points to an authoritative Church - not in “power” but in responsibility and service.
Scripture does not point to itself wholly sufficient in the hands of an individual but rather points to the community - the ekklesia - the Church.
Of course your friend will likely dispute some of these points…but there it is…
Peace
James
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
*2 Peter 3:13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. *
Nothing in Scriptures support SS.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
14 Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. *
Nothing in Scriptures support SS.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Catechism of the Catholic Church
PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION ONE
“I BELIEVE” - “WE BELIEVE”
CHAPTER TWO
GOD COMES TO MEET MAN
ARTICLE 2
THE TRANSMISSION OF DIVINE REVELATION
I. THE APOSTOLIC TRADITION
75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32
In the apostolic preaching. . .
76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
- orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
- in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34
77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36
78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38
79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
po18guy
Well-known member
Getting back to the main question, there is nothing in scripture to support sola scriptura as any sort of complete record of God’s revelation. There is an awful lot of revelation that was not written down, as God does not reveal Himself solely via writing. That is one of the ways, but only one.
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Oska2
Guest
Tell him its the word of Christ
Matt:24:35: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
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rcwitness
Guest
Holy Scripture IS materialy sufficient for our salvation, but not formally.
The bible cannot baptize anyone. And I suppose no matter how many bibles you eat, it is still not the Lord’s body
Michael
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Are you saying that you have found or discovered a limitation of God’s?
I believe, not know but believe, that if God wanted to write “every word”, as you put it, on our heart than God could do that.
Who knows, maybe “every word” is already written on our hearts and it is just “waiting”, so to speak, for God to “reveal” this to us, something to ponder.
T
Tom_Baum
Guest
I have said many times when people say that the bible is the “Word of God”, that it is not the “Word of God” but is about the “Word of God” since the bible clearly states, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became flesh”.Holy Scripture IS materialy sufficient for our salvation, but not formally.
The bible cannot baptize anyone. And I suppose no matter how many bibles you eat, it is still not the Lord’s body
Michael
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Tom_Baum
Guest
We (humans) tend to want to tell God just how God can “reveal” things, whereas God can reveal anything to whomever God wishes in whatever way God decides and Jesus, Himself, told us another way, when Jesus said, “I will send the Holy Spirit to guide…”.
po18guy
Well-known member
Addressing your paragraphs, respectively:
- Not at all.
- But, living in Christ is more than just God’s law on our hearts. We must apply those laws to specific, and living situations. That requires that God speak anew to each individual and to each succeeding generation. God’s law is defined, as in the 10 Commandments, and never changes. His Word is indeed living.
- If that is the case, then we may not need the Church, the scriptures, or our brothers and sisters to teach, correct and counsel us. Just pondering along with you.
D
dmar198
Guest
Although I think I get what you are trying to say, and what I think you’re getting at is orthodox, nevertheless there is a true sense (a very important one) in which the Bible is the “Word of God.” As the Second Vatican Council proclaimed, “The Sacred Scriptures contain the Word of God and, because they are inspired, they are truly the Word of God.” (Dei Verbum 24)
po18guy
Well-known member
The Word is Jesus Christ, Who came in the flesh. Dei Verbum must be read in context, or else we may confuse and transmute this into the bible actually being the true presence of Christ, rather than the Holy Eucharist, correct?
We see this occurring in bible Churches which have rejected or abandoned the Eucharist. The bible has, in essence, replaced Christ’s true presence.
D
dmar198
Guest
Correct. Your point (unquoted) about fundamentalist churches is apt, because too many of them have replaced the Eucharist (the true center of the Christian faith) with the Bible. I was merely pointing out that the Church doesn’t reject the title “Word of God” for the Bible, but in fact endorses it.
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sousley
Guest
Back to the OP, the very discussion that you are having with your friend in a case in point to failure of the modern sense of sola Scriptura. Two are reading a passage and interpreting it differently. Beyond any discussions of inerrancy or completeness, we as humans, tend to bring ourselves (education level, past teachings, prides, prejudices, etc.) into our understanding of the text. If we reject any manner of authority (magisterium, early fathers) apart from our own, then we can bring all of our failures and vices to the text and become misguided.
Invincible ignorance does not apply for those that willfully reject all authority placed before them and rely entirely on themselves for inerrancy. Jesus was very aware of our frailties and failures; He died for them. For this reason, He left us a Church and gave certain men gifts that would aid them in leading us home.**
Invincible ignorance does not apply for those that willfully reject all authority placed before them and rely entirely on themselves for inerrancy. Jesus was very aware of our frailties and failures; He died for them. For this reason, He left us a Church and gave certain men gifts that would aid them in leading us home.**
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