Does "LGBT" reflect a kind of social pecking order within "the gay community"?

[SMGS127]

In light of your pointing out “GLAAD” to me, I’ll admit defeat with my theory about tension between lesbians and “gay” men in the lobby. But, I still think that the “BT” part of it has less status.

Note the two links I posted in my last post. GLAAD has officially dropped their complete name specifically because it didn’t have bisexuals or transgender people represented. PFLAG has a transgender-specific chapter started over a decade ago.

There are biphobic gays just as there are biphobic straights who otherwise approve of homosexual behavior. And transgenderism is mostly treated as a separate issue, because, quite frankly, it IS a separate issue. If I were still an actively gay person, I would argue PFLAG had it perfect. Allow families to share their stories of gays/bis/lesbians at LGB meetings to show they don’t fit the stereotypes that are perpetuated about them, and allow families to share stories of transgender individuals at specific T meetings. LGB & T really have nothing to do with each other, outside being vilified and stereotyped by the same groups. While transgender individuals are somewhat ostracized in the community, again, it is mostly due to the fact that their issue is completely separate (not to mention the fact that most transsexuals consider themselves straight). Bisexuals are only ostracized in the sense that there are biphobic individuals both in and out of the community, so they really have nowhere that’s absolutely a safe space for their identity. But that “ostracizing” is really just gays thinking they’re either gay or experimenting, not really abuse of any kind. And the community is still much more welcoming of bisexuality than most of the world.

Once again, while same-sex physical behavior is definitely immoral and spiritually harmful, please understand that gays and lesbians are largely just like anyone else, living their lives quietly, trying to support their family and country, and hoping to be left alone by society.

 

[janeway529]

This entire post is wrong. Like, the entirety of it.

First of all, if there were a pecking order, it would go Gay/Lesbian/Intersexed/Asexual > Bisexual > Queer >> Questioning >>>> Transgender, which is almost entirely different than what you claim.

Secondly, how many gay people have you heard say “can’t you make up your mind?” That is an extraordinarily straight biphobic response to bisexuality. A gay person who is biphobic would likely use the “oh they’re still in their gateway phase” expression or the “oh they want to pretend like they like the opposite sex too to fit in ” expression.

Third of all, AGAIN, GLBT and LGBT are used interchangably. In fact, GLAAD is “Gays, Lesbians, and Allies Against Defamation.” How many feminist groups do you see railing against that? Zero.

I don’t think it’s wrong, considering I learned it from my university’s Gay Straight Alliance club. We had a dialogue on the OP’s very topic and that is what came out of our discussion. Perhaps where you live, it’s different; but that’s what has been my experience and some LGBT’s experience.

 

[SMGS127]

I don’t think it’s wrong, considering I learned it from my university’s Gay Straight Alliance club. We had a dialogue on the OP’s very topic and that is what came out of our discussion. Perhaps where you live, it’s different; but that’s what has been my experience and some LGBT’s experience.

You’ve heard a gay person tell a bisexual person “why can’t you make up your mind?”

 

[esieffe]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

 

[Kamaduck]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

I don’t actually know what statement you’re making with this. It’s an important quote, but I don’t see how it’s relevant to us in this conversation.

I suppose it applies to the reason LGBT+ individuals are a community at all, especially when it includes the T, I, A, and other groups that don’t have the exact same goals. The idea being that if different groups are being targeted by the same oppressive structure, then those groups should band together. That way they’ll be strong enough to do something, whereas if they fought alone, they would easily be defeated. If they “speak out” for people whose struggles are different than their own, it’s more likely that others will also speak out for them.

Is that what you meant?

 

[livingwordunity]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

What comes to my mind is how the orthodox Catholics came to the support of Hobby Lobby and Chick-fil-A in their struggles with the HHS mandate.
The most unpopular thing to be nowadays is a Christian that holds to traditional family values.

 

[livingwordunity]

I meant to say how the orthodox Catholics came to the support of Hobby Lobby in their struggle with the HHS mandate and how we also supported Chick-fil-A when they were being attacked because of the stand they took on the biblical definition of a family.

 

[Kamaduck]

I meant to say how the orthodox Catholics came to the support of Hobby Lobby in their struggle with the HHS mandate and how we also supported Chick-fil-A when they were being attacked because of the stand they took on the biblical definition of a family.

I don’t see how that has anything to do with any “pecking order” there may or may not be within the LGBT community. :ehh:

 

[kozlosap]

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

I think of this quote often when reading these forums. When any group begins to be seen as not human, but just as a group, then there is serious reason to be fearful.

 

[livingwordunity]

I don’t see how that has anything to do with any “pecking order” there may or may not be within the LGBT community. :ehh:

I was just saying what esieffe’s quote made me think about. Sorry about going off topic.

 

[livingwordunity]

I think of this quote often when reading these forums. When any group begins to be seen as not human, but just as a group, then there is serious reason to be fearful.

Perhaps that’s an argument against labeling as “lesbian” or “gay” those who struggle with same-sex attraction or lumping them all into a group like the one they call “LBGT”. Instead, we should look at each person who has same-sex attraction as an individual child of God.

 

[Kamaduck]

I was just saying what esieffe’s quote made me think about. Sorry about going off topic.

Nah, it’s OK. I was just trying to figure out what esieffe’s intention was by posting it. I still don’t know.

Perhaps that’s an argument against labeling as “lesbian” or “gay” those who struggle with same-sex attraction or lumping them all into a group like the one they call “LBGT”. Instead, we should look at each person who has same-sex attraction as an individual child of God.

Certainly we should try to see them as individuals rather than as groups. But on the other hand, they do form groups, and they do face certain challenges that others do not. Even among Catholics, I think it can be comforting to find others who share the same cross and can empathize. They definitely need words to describe their experiences, whether the word is “same-sex attracted” or the easier-to-say “gay”.

 

[andrewstx]

I think of this quote often when reading these forums. When any group begins to be seen as not human, but just as a group, then there is serious reason to be fearful.

I agree. Ted Nugent just called the President a 'subhuman mongrel" just because he is black.

There are many times when I am ashamed to be a Texan!

 

[livingwordunity]

I agree. Ted Nugent just called the President a 'subhuman mongrel" just because he is black.

There are many times when I am ashamed to be a Texan!

I provided proof that he isn’t a racist. Please see the following:

PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.
Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.
Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.

Update: Ted Nugent apologizes for his comments

Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.
Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.
Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.
Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.
Re: PROOF that Ted Nugent is NOT racist.

Now back to the thread topic.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Perhaps that’s an argument against labeling as “lesbian” or “gay” those who struggle with same-sex attraction or lumping them all into a group like the one they call “LBGT”. Instead, we should look at each person who has same-sex attraction as an individual child of God.

There’s a difference between using a label to group together people by an aspect of them and using it to paint them as if they were all the same.

 

[esieffe]

Perhaps that’s an argument against labeling as “lesbian” or “gay” those who struggle with same-sex attraction or lumping them all into a group like the one they call “LBGT”. Instead, we should look at each person who has same-sex attraction as an individual child of God.

This is the best statement you have written on this topic I have ever read! Underneath all that straw there really is a true Christian. I feel hope for you now! Please don’t take this as criticism.

 

[esieffe]

I think of this quote often when reading these forums. When any group begins to be seen as not human, but just as a group, then there is serious reason to be fearful.

You are right on the mark! There was a story I read a year ago about a gay man who was being bullied by a neighbor every time he went out of his house. One day he bought a camera and set it up in his living room, turned it on and went out to do some yard work. The camera was just insurance, the man was afraid to go out in his own yard.

The bully came out and beat him to a pulp. The bully went to jail. He got the maximum sentence. His Mom made this statement to the press: “I don’t get all of this, he is just a queer!”

They one day may find the gene, they may not. One thing I know from my cousin… and those who have been selected for murder and torture by political extremists, such as the third Reich, no one chooses this, not even a fool chooses a path that leads to hatred, religious condemnation, loneliness in old age, discrimination, and death.

“Between 1933 and 1945, an estimated 100,000 men were arrested as homosexuals, of whom some 50,000 were officially sentenced.[1] Most of these men served time in regular prisons, and an estimated 5,000 to 15,000 of those sentenced were incarcerated in Nazi concentration camps.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_homosexuals_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust.

Am I for gay marriage? Probably not, but I think civil unions are just fine. Should there be any special rights? No, other than than gay people are a persecuted people, and should be protected from persecution, and brutality. In the past, that protection has been woefully inadequate. You cannot know the horrors that these people experience unless you are close to one.

It is my duty as a Christian to defend the downtrodden. God knows of my intentions, and of their struggles and yours. We do have legitimate concerns about the deterioration that goes on around us, the erosion of morals and standards. This decay, however is not exclusive in its scope, all segments are affected. Moral decay is NOT about people, it is about hedonistic attitudes, crime, lack of compassion, and the utter disregard for the sanctity of life.

 

[Midwest88]

Yes, me too. Why the need for scare quotes? These people exist in reality so why surround them with scare quotes? Personally I doubt the existence of one gay community. They are individuals and as divided as anyone else.

I think that some put more faith in their far right politics than the teachings of the church. The CCC states that these individauls are to be treated with dignity and respect, yet I see little of either from the right, just derision.

It is my hypothesis ( and I could be way off on this) that the right always needs a “other, an enemy” to keep people stirred up and paranoid about. First it was Jews, then Communists and the no longer extant Soviet Union, then African Americans and that is still present in the right with their “birtherism”, and now homosexuals. Who will be next?

I think you’re way off.

 

[livingwordunity]

Yes, me too. Why the need for scare quotes? These people exist in reality so why surround them with scare quotes? Personally I doubt the existence of one gay community. They are individuals and as divided as anyone else.

For the same reason that I will put your “scare quotes” in quotes. Any word or phrase that is contrived political spin, such as what you are doing, I put in quotes. I also put “Pro-Choice” in quotations. But, would you accuse me of doing it because I don’t think abortions exist?

 

[Razanir]

This link came up on Catholic Memes today.

Gay, Catholic, and Doing Fine

Gay != Advocating same-sex marriage. (I’m in CS. != is how I think to write =/=) Just like not every feminist wants reverse discrimination against men. Or how you can be atheist without trying to abolish public religion. Or be atheist and still be pro-life. Or be against redefinition of marriage, and not hate homosexuals as people.

So please, don’t put the word “gay” or anything like it in quotes. The exception being doing what I just did, putting it in quotes to refer to the word itself. (Or, of course, if actually quoting someone)

And maybe there is some sort of a pecking order implied in the ordering of LGBT. But at the same time, it’s also quite likely that they just tack more letters onto it as more communities come out. If there was a pecking order, then it might be LGBQT instead of LGBTQ. But seeing as any non-LGBT letters just show up at the end, it seems a safe assumption that they’re just being tacked on to the end because they’re newer.

In other words, barring the whole LGBT/GLBT debate, most of the ordering is probably explainable by how new the communities are.