Does Man make God's message to complex?

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mikew262

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I sometimes wonder does man make God’s message and desires for us way too complex? I’m talking Christianity as a whole.

Wasn’t Jesus’ main messages?:
  1. Follow the commandments.
  2. Love one another as I love you.
  3. Love God.
  4. Follow what I’ve told you in the gospels.
Instead we’ve come up with all these interpretations of what we (man) think God wants us to do. The Catholics have all their rules and traditions, the Protestants have their way of doing things and so on.

Each different Christian denomination thinks the other is going to Hell, because they worship God just a little bit differently.

Yes, you can say the Holy Spirit guides us Catholics, so we have it right. However, wait, the other denominations say the same thing.

Jesus has to be saying, “no, no, no, I left you a very straightforward message and you all have managed over 2000 years to totally mangle it. I left you Christanity, and thats it. Not Catholicism, not Methodist, not Baptist, but Christanity, period. Many of you are going in the right general direction, but you’re still all over the place. BTW, I’m getting real tired of everybody making judgements on everybody else, thats my job. Get it together people!!”

Anybody have any relevant comments?
 
mikew262 said:
I sometimes wonder does man make God’s message and desires for us way too complex? I’m talking Christianity as a whole.

Wasn’t Jesus’ main messages?:
  1. Follow the commandments.
  2. Love one another as I love you.
  3. Love God.
  4. Follow what I’ve told you in the gospels.
Instead we’ve come up with all these interpretations of what we (man) think God wants us to do. The Catholics have all their rules and traditions, the Protestants have their way of doing things and so on.

Each different Christian denomination thinks the other is going to Hell, because they worship God just a little bit differently.

Yes, you can say the Holy Spirit guides us Catholics, so we have it right. However, wait, the other denominations say the same thing.

Jesus has to be saying, “no, no, no, I left you a very straightforward message and you all have managed over 2000 years to totally mangle it. I left you Christanity, and thats it. Not Catholicism, not Methodist, not Baptist, but Christanity, period. Many of you are going in the right general direction, but you’re still all over the place. BTW, I’m getting real tired of everybody making judgements on everybody else, thats my job. Get it together people!!”

Anybody have any relevant comments?
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Jesus didn’t come to give any messages, per se. He came to drown in His own phlegm simply for not lying about Who He was, thereby releasing the world from sin, and to institute the devouring of His flesh by His followers.

So, no, you’re the one making things too complex.
 
Hastrman said:
Jesus didn’t come to give any messages, per se. He came to drown in His own phlegm simply for not lying about Who He was, thereby releasing the world from sin, and to institute the devouring of His flesh by His followers.

So, no, you’re the one making things too complex.
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Of course he came down to give a message. The message being, I’ve died so your sins can be forgiven and here is how I’d like you all to live your lives to obtain salvation. However, I think, as man we have made that very simple message way to complex with everything else thats been added over the many years.

BTW, your verbage is a little lacking in taste. Was that necessary?
 
mikew262 said:
I sometimes wonder does man make God’s message and desires for us way too complex? I’m talking Christianity as a whole.

Wasn’t Jesus’ main messages?:
  1. Follow the commandments.
  2. Love one another as I love you.
  3. Love God.
  4. Follow what I’ve told you in the gospels.
Instead we’ve come up with all these interpretations of what we (man) think God wants us to do. The Catholics have all their rules and traditions, the Protestants have their way of doing things and so on.

Each different Christian denomination thinks the other is going to Hell, because they worship God just a little bit differently.

Yes, you can say the Holy Spirit guides us Catholics, so we have it right. However, wait, the other denominations say the same thing.

Jesus has to be saying, “no, no, no, I left you a very straightforward message and you all have managed over 2000 years to totally mangle it. I left you Christanity, and thats it. Not Catholicism, not Methodist, not Baptist, but Christanity, period. Many of you are going in the right general direction, but you’re still all over the place. BTW, I’m getting real tired of everybody making judgements on everybody else, thats my job. Get it together people!!”

Anybody have any relevant comments?
Click to expand...
Hi mikew262,

I guess you have to look at why some people think God’s messages are complex. I think sometimes we make it more complex than it really is to keep us from taking a definitive stand.

In regards to your next point about Jesus’s message, I think it would be important to actually determine what Jesus’ main message was. That one might be more difficult to find agreement (or maybe not:) )

I think as far as interpretations go, one has to look at the source and it’s reliability…historically, theologically, etc. We then make a conscious decision to accept or reject that church/religion/person’s interpretation.

I think it’s a generalization to say that each denomination thinks that other is going to hell (at least the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that)

As far as guessing what Jesus is thinking, I’m not even going to attempt a guess…however…it’s a wild guess…but perhaps these are your thoughts and frustrations?
 
Well, people are still arguing about the meaning of Jesus’ own words in John 6, so apparently the message wasn’t entirely clear and simple enough.

In fact, reading through the prologue of John’s gospel, or the final discourse given in Chapters 16 and 17 of John’s gospel, I doubt that someone just picking it up and reading it with no foundation whatever, might find it quite hard to comprehend. The epistles of Paul, the book of Revelation, much of the New Testament, do not strike me as being uncomplicated documents.
 
Thoughtful said:
Hi mikew262,

I guess you have to look at why some people think God’s messages are complex. I think sometimes we make it more complex than it really is to keep us from taking a definitive stand.

In regards to your next point about Jesus’s message, I think it would be important to actually determine what Jesus’ main message was. That one might be more difficult to find agreement (or maybe not:) )

I think as far as interpretations go, one has to look at the source and it’s reliability…historically, theologically, etc. We then make a conscious decision to accept or reject that church/religion/person’s interpretation.

I think it’s a generalization to say that each denomination thinks that other is going to hell (at least the Catholic Church doesn’t believe that)

As far as guessing what Jesus is thinking, I’m not even going to attempt a guess…however…it’s a wild guess…but perhaps these are your thoughts and frustrations?
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Yes, I was making a generalization on various denomination’s thinking considering salvation. For some, that is what they think. Even some on this forum think it’s the Catholic Church or no salvation. However, I know thats not completely true.

Yes, I was exhibiting my frustrations and thoughts on what Jesus is thinking. I get very frustrated sometimes with Christianity as whole and the Catholic Church. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll never cease to be a Christian, and hopefully a Catholic. However, I just wonder whether man is following what God wants or have we made a royal mess of it over the many years.
 
mikew262 said:
Yes, I was exhibiting my frustrations and thoughts on what Jesus is thinking. I get very frustrated sometimes with Christianity as whole and the Catholic Church. Don’t get me wrong, I’ll never cease to be a Christian, and hopefully a Catholic. However, I just wonder whether man is following what God wants or have we made a royal mess of it over the many years.
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How do you think we’ve made things a "royal mess?’

Hope you don’t take that as confrontational…just trying to draw out your thoughts. 🙂

May I parse out some points,

Jesus has to be saying, “no, no, no, I left you a very straightforward message (which we need to define) and you all have managed over 2000 years to totally mangle it (**how?). **I left you Christanity, and thats it. Not Catholicism (debatable), not Methodist, not Baptist, but Christanity, period. Many of you are going in the right general direction, but you’re still all over the place (again how? examples). BTW, I’m getting real tired of everybody making judgements (define; for example, is quoting from the CCC judgemental? Some people think it is)on everybody else, thats my job. Get it together people!!”
 
mikew262 said:
BTW, your verbage is a little lacking in taste. Was that necessary?
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s necessary. That’s what crucifixion is. And “devouring” is actually the literal translation of what He said at the Last Supper.

Unless you prefer “gnawing,” which can also gloss that word?

And no, the message was secondary. Dying and instituting sacrifices was the point.
 
I sometimes wonder does man make God’s message and desires for us way too complex?
Click to expand...
While we have to have rules to guide conduct etc, I think you are right.

St Augustine reduced the whole of the Gospel to ONE RULE:

LOVE AND DO WHAT YOU WILL! 👍
 
mikew262 said:
I sometimes wonder does man make God’s message and desires for us way too complex? I’m talking Christianity as a whole.
Click to expand...
It sounds lke you are talking about Jesus condemning all the Christian institutions that we currently have, and not individual leaders. Like the words in Mark
When he disembarked and saw the vast crowd, his heart was moved with pity for them, for they were like sheep without a shepherd; and he began to teach them many things.
Click to expand...
Do you see us now as without a shepherd?

Or, since this is posted in the morality forum, is your post more about your bewilderment with long lists of do and don’t, and feeling that such a list is an impediment to the truth? That’s just a guess, though. I’m thrown by you saying it is about things as a whole. I completely agree that individual Christians tend to make things too complicated. I’m sure the devil tries to lead us that way, so that our peace gets busted up, and we feel we have to do it all, which disconnects us even more from God.
 
You are right, man does make it complex and the reason for that is, man is sinful.

Jesus came and taught truth, such as, that He is God.
Being that He is God the only way to worship Him is not with just prayer, studying the Bible, a good sermon or singing. That all is good and points us to the proper center, but without the center it is not worship it is just love and obedience.
The center is Jesus being offered up in Sacrifice for our sins on the Cross, we Catholics do that at Mass since we cannot offer anything of ourselves.

Now along comes a guy named Arty, he denies that Jesus is God and therefore starts to change the truth of God, so the Church that Jesus started needs to defend truth by making a creed so that everyone is sure of what is truth and what not to deny.
Now along comes along some guy, lets call him Marty L. He thinks his own way and wants to change things. Now in order to defend truth the Church Jesus established has to define specifics more,
these sinful people come along for 2000 years and keep trying to make up new belief systems. So instead of just one consistant simple truth, you have one consistant truth that has needed to defend truth for 2000 years and define thousands of aspects of what Jesus taught or ignore that truth matters.

If Jesus just came here and said believe whatever you want I will die for you, then this would be ok. We could ignore all his teachings as truth wouldn’t matter to God.

But the reality is that man who is sinful has constantly rebelled, this makes for a anyone who cares about truth to have had to defend it in numerous ways. This is why the Catholic Church is so comprehensive, as it has to be if truth matters and if it has mattered for 2000 years.

Now if you live in an area where there are only Catholics lets just say some rural parish, it would be a simple faith as you would love Jesus, worship Him in the only possible way we can by offering Him up in the Sacrifice of the Mass and faithfully following Him. It would be the simplest faith.

But man just complicates it by sin. Yes I agree with you man complicates it, but that doesn’t negate the value of truth or else we believe whatever we want, and it is ok.
I could state that Jesus was married, I am one of His descendants and not be committing blasphemy, if truth didn’t matter.

In Christ
Scylla
 
scylla said:
You are right, man does make it complex and the reason for that is, man is sinful.

Jesus came and taught truth, such as, that He is God.
Being that He is God the only way to worship Him is not with just prayer, studying the Bible, a good sermon or singing. That all is good and points us to the proper center, but without the center it is not worship it is just love and obedience.
The center is Jesus being offered up in Sacrifice for our sins on the Cross, we Catholics do that at Mass since we cannot offer anything of ourselves.

Now along comes a guy named Arty, he denies that Jesus is God and therefore starts to change the truth of God, so the Church that Jesus started needs to defend truth by making a creed so that everyone is sure of what is truth and what not to deny.
Now along comes along some guy, lets call him Marty L. He thinks his own way and wants to change things. Now in order to defend truth the Church Jesus established has to define specifics more,
these sinful people come along for 2000 years and keep trying to make up new belief systems. So instead of just one consistant simple truth, you have one consistant truth that has needed to defend truth for 2000 years and define thousands of aspects of what Jesus taught or ignore that truth matters.

If Jesus just came here and said believe whatever you want I will die for you, then this would be ok. We could ignore all his teachings as truth wouldn’t matter to God.

But the reality is that man who is sinful has constantly rebelled, this makes for a anyone who cares about truth to have had to defend it in numerous ways. This is why the Catholic Church is so comprehensive, as it has to be if truth matters and if it has mattered for 2000 years.

Now if you live in an area where there are only Catholics lets just say some rural parish, it would be a simple faith as you would love Jesus, worship Him in the only possible way we can by offering Him up in the Sacrifice of the Mass and faithfully following Him. It would be the simplest faith.

But man just complicates it by sin. Yes I agree with you man complicates it, but that doesn’t negate the value of truth or else we believe whatever we want, and it is ok.
I could state that Jesus was married, I am one of His descendants and not be committing blasphemy, if truth didn’t matter.

In Christ
Scylla
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Scylla, one of thee best posts I have seen in these forums! God bless you!
 
I can’t help but observe that God sure made Judaism pretty complex. Simpler is better certainly did not apply to His chosen people. Just a thought…
 
Thoughtful said:
How do you think we’ve made things a "royal mess?’

Hope you don’t take that as confrontational…just trying to draw out your thoughts. 🙂

May I parse out some points,

Jesus has to be saying, “no, no, no, I left you a very straightforward message (which we need to define) and you all have managed over 2000 years to totally mangle it (**how?). **I left you Christanity, and thats it. Not Catholicism (debatable), not Methodist, not Baptist, but Christanity, period. Many of you are going in the right general direction, but you’re still all over the place (again how? examples). BTW, I’m getting real tired of everybody making judgements (define; for example, is quoting from the CCC judgemental? Some people think it is)on everybody else, thats my job. Get it together people!!”
Click to expand...
Royal Mess/Mangling: Multiple denominations, multiple interpretations of scripture of which Catholic Church is 1 of many. Traditions that may or may not have biblical backing. Catholics killing Protestants, and vice versa, etc.

Straightforward Messages: See my original post.

All over the place: All Christians believe in Jesus Christ and what he stood for which is overall the right direction. However, because of the many different ways Christians worship Christ, and each denomination thinking the others are all wrong, even to calling each other Heretics at times.

Being judgemental: No, not quoting from the CCC, at least not directly. Again I’m talking about one denomination condemning another. Catholics condemning other Catholics, etc. You see it all the time on this board, as well as on other Christian boards. God provides the ultimate judgement, period.

Does this help clarify my thoughts and frustration a little bit?
 
mikew262 said:
Royal Mess/Mangling: Multiple denominations, multiple interpretations of scripture of which Catholic Church is 1 of many. Traditions that may or may not have biblical backing. Catholics killing Protestants, and vice versa, etc.

Straightforward Messages: See my original post.

All over the place: All Christians believe in Jesus Christ and what he stood for which is overall the right direction. However, because of the many different ways Christians worship Christ, and each denomination thinking the others are all wrong, even to calling each other Heretics at times.

Being judgemental: No, not quoting from the CCC, at least not directly. Again I’m talking about one denomination condemning another. Catholics condemning other Catholics, etc. You see it all the time on this board, as well as on other Christian boards. God provides the ultimate judgement, period.

Does this help clarify my thoughts and frustration a little bit?
Click to expand...
As I said before sinful people do horrible things, this doesn’t change the truth of the teachings of Christ, which are preserved by the Catholic Church.
No matter how crummy we Catholics are, how judgemental, how arrogant and rude. This is not what makes Catholicism right or wrong.
What makes it right is that truth matters and that Jesus came to teach us something.

Biblical backing… Just what is that? Does that mean that just because I do not see it in the Bible it doesn’t exist. Or that just because it is not clear in the Bible it doesn’t exist. Or that if it isn’t in the Bible it doesn’t exist.
A Christian shouldn’t care about seeing it in the Bible, but whether or not it is true.
Just because I do not see Pastor Joe and his Bible Church in the Bible does not mean that Pastor Joe does not exist, hates God or is going to hell.
Just because I do not see the rapture in the Bible does not make the people who believe in the rapture evil or wrong in all doctrines.

The Bible was put together to be used at Mass, not to be used to base our beliefs off of, or else Jesus explained things to His disciples for nothing. Nobody was saved until the Church put the Bible together as they were believing “unbiblical” doctrines. It really comes down to “who says so?” Who has authority?
As a Catholic I look to God who passed it to disciples who passed it down. Any other way is taking God out of the picture.

We need to worship God by putting God first, this is done at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Any other way is putting man first by making a Bible study or a preaching session out of worship. Unless we change Christian belief to somehow believe that we can do better than Jesus dying on the cross for us. This is what worship should center on, the Sacrifice of Jesus.

We need to ask does truth matter and what is worship?

God Bless
Scylla
 
mikew262 said:
Royal Mess/Mangling: Multiple denominations, multiple interpretations of scripture of which Catholic Church is 1 of many. Traditions that may or may not have biblical backing. Catholics killing Protestants, and vice versa, etc.

Straightforward Messages: See my original post.

All over the place: All Christians believe in Jesus Christ and what he stood for which is overall the right direction. However, because of the many different ways Christians worship Christ, and each denomination thinking the others are all wrong, even to calling each other Heretics at times.

Being judgemental: No, not quoting from the CCC, at least not directly. Again I’m talking about one denomination condemning another. Catholics condemning other Catholics, etc. You see it all the time on this board, as well as on other Christian boards. God provides the ultimate judgement, period.

Does this help clarify my thoughts and frustration a little bit?
Click to expand...
Correct me if I’m wrong, I see at least two frustrations
  1. multiple “Christian” interpretations, many different ways of “Christian” worship = mess = ??confusion
  2. Judgement = condemnation
To address the issue of multiple interpretations, ways of worship, everything, etc, - it can be discouraging! That’s why we need to know our faith, be solid in it (not pick and choose), and know why we believe what we believe. Catholics are being a lot more challenged today. As well, we are constantly being challenged by a relativistic, hedonistic, secular society.

The Church looks at our brothers and sisters in Christ as “separated brethern” They do not have the fullness of faith. Not having the fullness can lead someone in error. Do we judge their love for Christ, their commitment to be a Christian – No. But can we make a judgement about their “interpretation” or doctrine – of course.

Look it up in the dictionary. Judgement is an opinion or a conclusion. Condemnation is complete disapproval of something.

Often we interpret someone’s judgement as condemnation. So then, what makes someone’s judgement (opinion/conclusion) about , for example, how I worship or how I interpret the bible, come across as condemnation (disapproval). It’s when we take it personal. And why do we take it personal? Maybe because subconsciously we don’t fully understand why we agree or disagree with a particular teaching, maybe we don’t like personal challenges to our “safe” way of believing, maybe the way we believe “works” for us even if it is contradictory.

I’ve seen many discussions disintegrate quickly because someone is being challenged (often with very sound arguments) and instead of “sticking to the facts” starts thowing back the words such as “judgemental” (and not in the way the word was intended) hoping to shut down the opinions and conclusion of the other person.

Hope I didn’t ramble too much. 🙂

Mikew262, are you feeling condemned for your beliefs?😦
 
mikew262 said:
Does this help clarify my thoughts and frustration a little bit?
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Hi Mike,

We haven’t heard from you in a while. Just wondering if the thoughts and opinions of some of the posters have helped you?
 
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