Does Matthew 28:20 really guarantee that the early Christian Church would not go a stray?

[gazelam]

Threads addressing the LDS view of Early Christian apostasy inevitably result in one or more references to Matthew 28:20 as scriptural proof that the early Church could not fail. The verse states:

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

“age” in this verse comes from the greek word “aion”, which can mean at times either

a) for ever, perpetuity of time, eternity
b) the worlds, universe
c) period of time, age.

(For more info see here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=KJV&strongs=g165

Those who claim that in Matthew 28:20 “aion” means “forever” or “eternity” run into a logic problem because neither “forever” nor “eternity” have an end. The phrase “the end of forever” simple does not make logical sense because forever does not end. Therefore “aion” in this case must refer to a finite period of time which fits the logic of the sentence.

Note that Matthew 13:39,40 (see below) twice uses the phrase “the end of the age”. In both cases were “aion” interpreted to mean eternity the verse would not be logical because the harvest would never occur.

Matthew 13:39,40 state:

*and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned [up] with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. *

The interlinear website showing the translation of Matthew 28:20 from Greek to be “completion of the age” in place of “end of the age”, which clearly indicates a finite period of time. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/28-20.htm

The interlinear website shows the same translation from Greek for Matthew 13:39,40. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-39.htm and biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-40.htm

What is your reasoning to support the traditional interpretation of Matthew 28:20 that Christ would never ever abandon the early Church no matter what? Or, do you also support this interpretation that Christ will support the early Church for a finite period of time?

 

[Servant19]

Threads addressing the LDS view of Early Christian apostasy inevitably result in one or more references to Matthew 28:20 as scriptural proof that the early Church could not fail. The verse states:

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

“age” in this verse comes from the greek word “aion”, which can mean at times either

a) for ever, perpetuity of time, eternity
b) the worlds, universe
c) period of time, age.

(For more info see here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=KJV&strongs=g165

Those who claim that in Matthew 28:20 “aion” means “forever” or “eternity” run into a logic problem because neither “forever” nor “eternity” have an end. The phrase “the end of forever” simple does not make logical sense because forever does not end. Therefore “aion” in this case must refer to a finite period of time which fits the logic of the sentence.

Note that Matthew 13:39,40 (see below) twice uses the phrase “the end of the age”. In both cases were “aion” interpreted to mean eternity the verse would not be logical because the harvest would never occur.

Matthew 13:39,40 state:

*and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned [up] with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. *

The interlinear website showing the translation of Matthew 28:20 from Greek to be “completion of the age” in place of “end of the age”, which clearly indicates a finite period of time. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/28-20.htm

The interlinear website shows the same translation from Greek for Matthew 13:39,40. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-39.htm and biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-40.htm

What is your reasoning to support the traditional interpretation of Matthew 28:20 that Christ would never ever abandon the early Church no matter what? Or, do you also support this interpretation that Christ will support the early Church for a finite period of time?

Very good points for discussion.

If there is a finite period, then would it be followed by another “age”?

.

 

[benjohnson]

As i understand it - Jesus is making a promise to be with us - “I am with you always” and then Jesus give us extra comfort in reiterating how long he will be with us. “Until the end of the age.”

As we have need no new revelation from God, we must conclude that Jesus is still with us.

 

[TonyBS]

As i understand it - Jesus is making a promise to be with us - “I am with you always” and then Jesus give us extra comfort in reiterating how long he will be with us. “Until the end of the age.”

As we have need no new revelation from God, we must conclude that Jesus is still with us.

But the Bible does say there will be more Revelation.

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

But the Bible does say there will be more Revelation.

Regards Tony

Which Bible?

MJ

 

[TonyBS]

Which Bible?

MJ

Choose any Translation you want, they all say there will be more Revelation.

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

Choose any Translation you want, they all say there will be more Revelation.

Regards Tony

Are you the authority on the Bible?

MJ

 

[Servant19]

Are you the authority on the Bible?

MJ

Who is the authority? Do we have a name?

.

 

[TonyBS]

Are you the authority on the Bible?

MJ

No not at all, but the Father is, thus as per the OP there is no guarantee that a Christian will know the Bible unless, with the Son, they also accept the Father. It is also possible in the Bible they also needed to accept Muhammad.

Christ keeps telling us we must also do the Will of the Father.

With that the question is answered and will not go over old debated areas.

Regards Tony

 

[MartinJordan]

It is also possible in the Bible they also needed to accept Muhammad

“It is possible” isn’t exegesis. You have to do much better than that .

Christ keeps telling us we must also do the Will of the Father.

Yes, that’s why everyday there is a Mass all over the world where people of the Church worship listening to God’s Word and trying their best to Glorify God by their lives. See the Mass. All are invited.

With that the question is answered and will not go over old debated areas.

It will never get old Tony. The Word of the God is alive and active. We are called to defend the Truth even if we are persecuted.

MJ

 

[Duane1966]

Threads addressing the LDS view of Early Christian apostasy inevitably result in one or more references to Matthew 28:20 as scriptural proof that the early Church could not fail. The verse states:

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

“age” in this verse comes from the greek word “aion”, which can mean at times either

a) for ever, perpetuity of time, eternity
b) the worlds, universe
c) period of time, age.

(For more info see here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=KJV&strongs=g165

Those who claim that in Matthew 28:20 “aion” means “forever” or “eternity” run into a logic problem because neither “forever” nor “eternity” have an end. The phrase “the end of forever” simple does not make logical sense because forever does not end. Therefore “aion” in this case must refer to a finite period of time which fits the logic of the sentence.

Except, you in no way show that “aion” does not refer to option B. And the end of the universe, for us humans, is the end of life as we know it. Life as we know it includes the concept of time? So by saying to the end of the universe, Jesus is in essence saying forever, as time as we know it will cease.

What is your reasoning to support the traditional interpretation of Matthew 28:20 that Christ would never ever abandon the early Church no matter what? Or, do you also support this interpretation that Christ will support the early Church for a finite period of time?

What can you specifically show that proves the early church apostasized? You have done nothing that even remotely shows that the tradional interpretation is not the correct interpretation. Why would Jesus only support His Church for a finite period of time? If you believe He will only support His Church for a finite period of time, then anyone who belongs to a church that believes He supports their church, has no assurance that He will not withdraw His support of them.

What a fickle God you make Him out to be.

 

[ericc]

Threads addressing the LDS view of Early Christian apostasy inevitably result in one or more references to Matthew 28:20 as scriptural proof that the early Church could not fail. The verse states:

teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.

“age” in this verse comes from the greek word “aion”, which can mean at times either

a) for ever, perpetuity of time, eternity
b) the worlds, universe
c) period of time, age.

(For more info see here: blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=KJV&strongs=g165

Those who claim that in Matthew 28:20 “aion” means “forever” or “eternity” run into a logic problem because neither “forever” nor “eternity” have an end. The phrase “the end of forever” simple does not make logical sense because forever does not end. Therefore “aion” in this case must refer to a finite period of time which fits the logic of the sentence.

Note that Matthew 13:39,40 (see below) twice uses the phrase “the end of the age”. In both cases were “aion” interpreted to mean eternity the verse would not be logical because the harvest would never occur.

Matthew 13:39,40 state:

*and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. Just as weeds are collected and burned [up] with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. *

The interlinear website showing the translation of Matthew 28:20 from Greek to be “completion of the age” in place of “end of the age”, which clearly indicates a finite period of time. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/28-20.htm

The interlinear website shows the same translation from Greek for Matthew 13:39,40. See biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-39.htm and biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/13-40.htm

What is your reasoning to support the traditional interpretation of Matthew 28:20 that Christ would never ever abandon the early Church no matter what? Or, do you also support this interpretation that Christ will support the early Church for a finite period of time?

The verse guaranteeing the Church would not fail is Mat 16:18 “the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”. The Holy Spirit will guide them “into ALL the truth” Jn 16:1 and will be with them FOREVER Jn 14:16. Hence the Church is guaranteed against failure.

Logically, till the end or close of the age would point to his second coming. Because after that, kingdom of heaven (aka new heaven/new earth) is forever. And therefore, “forever” is the correct terminology. There is no break of Jesus or Holy Spirit presence from that time till forever. In the new earth/heaven, God is always there.

I fail to see your problem. Perhaps you forgot to tag on the kingdom of God after the end of the age. Which is a continuous event anyway.

 

[ericc]

It is also possible in the Bible they also needed to accept Muhammad.

Nonsense. Jesus clearly warned us of false prophets. Mat 24:11. And Mat 24:14 said plainly “this gospel of the kingdom…will be preached to all nations; and then the end will come.” As you can see, there is no room for other gospels from then till the end. Anyone not preaching “this gospel” is hence a false prophet. Mohammed is not preaching “this gospel”.

 

[gazelam]

Very good points for discussion.

If there is a finite period, then would it be followed by another “age”?

.

Paul refers to a later “fullness of times”.

Ephesians 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of times, to sum up all things in Christ, in heaven and on earth

Here’s wikipedia on the topic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensation_of_the_fulness_of_times

Note the Bible commentaries for Ephesians 1:10: biblehub.com/ephesians/1-10.htm

Here is the Encyclopedia of Mormonism entry on the fulness of times: eom.byu.edu/index.php/Dispensation_of_the_Fulness_of_Times

 

[John_Martin]

Who is the authority? Do we have a name?

.

The Bible is authored by the Catholic Church, who is its authority (Paul, as a Catholic after Christ, wrote his letters; Moses as a Catholic before Jesus and preparing the way for Jesus, wrote the Torah, etc; and the bishops of the Church bound them together into a book for use by all Catholics to use). If you are reading a Bible, it is not your book, but was taken from Catholics as if it were some ordinary book. And you read it as if you think you could understand. But this book was meant to be explained to Catholics by Catholics. If you wish to be Catholic, you will then be taught what it means by the Body that wrote it and compiled it. That is the authority, the Author, Christ in his Body the Church.

 

[josephback]

What is your reasoning to support the traditional interpretation of Matthew 28:20 that Christ would never ever abandon the early Church no matter what? Or, do you also support this interpretation that Christ will support the early Church for a finite period of time?

My dear friend,

If Jesus would abandon the early church as you claim, why on earth would you devote your life to following Him? It is understandable that LDS teaching has a Great Apostasy to explain the time gap, but why on earth serve a capricious and unfaithful God?(giving your argument the benefit of the doubt). The questions you raise are a problem for the strict Bible literalist, but not everything is a matter of Greek exegesis. Is God a trustworthy being or not? This is the question you have to answer for yourself.

 

[gazelam]

Except, you in no way show that “aion” does not refer to option B. And the end of the universe, for us humans, is the end of life as we know it. Life as we know it includes the concept of time? So by saying to the end of the universe, Jesus is in essence saying forever, as time as we know it will cease.

I’m most certainly not a scholar of Biblical Greek and only used a few links to put forward my argument. However, I did refer to the original Greek “completion of the age” from the interlinear website.

What can you specifically show that proves the early church apostasized? You have done nothing that even remotely shows that the traditional interpretation is not the correct interpretation. Why would Jesus only support His Church for a finite period of time? If you believe He will only support His Church for a finite period of time, then anyone who belongs to a church that believes He supports their church, has no assurance that He will not withdraw His support of them.

What a fickle God you make Him out to be.

Several verses in the Bible refer to a future falling away from the truth.

Acts 20:29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come among you, and they will not spare the flock

2 Thessalonians 2:2,3 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,” or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition

2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

Regarding why Jesus would support his church for a only finite period of time we can turn to Revelation 2 where the Ephesians are warned to repent or they would suffer the consequences of their wickedness.

Revelation 2:4,5 Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

 

[gazelam]

My dear friend,

If Jesus would abandon the early church as you claim, why on earth would you devote your life to following Him? It is understandable that LDS teaching has a Great Apostasy to explain the time gap, but why on earth serve a capricious and unfaithful God?(giving your argument the benefit of the doubt). The questions you raise are a problem for the strict Bible literalist, but not everything is a matter of Greek exegesis. Is God a trustworthy being or not? This is the question you have to answer for yourself.

As I just noted in comment #17, Revelation 2:4,5 shows that the Ephesians were warned to repent or they would be removed from the presence of God . God was not being unfaithful, but rather the Ephesians.

 

[MT1926]

My dear friend,

If Jesus would abandon the early church as you claim, why on earth would you devote your life to following Him? It is understandable that LDS teaching has a Great Apostasy to explain the time gap, but why on earth serve a capricious and unfaithful God?(giving your argument the benefit of the doubt). The questions you raise are a problem for the strict Bible literalist, but not everything is a matter of Greek exegesis. Is God a trustworthy being or not? This is the question you have to answer for yourself.

Nicely said.

As I just noted in comment #17, Revelation 2:4,5 shows that the Ephesians were warned to repent or they would be removed from the presence of God . God was not being unfaithful, but rather the Ephesians.

I haven’t gotten deep into Revelation yet. However, I just wanted to point out that Joseph was speaking about the church, where as Revelations 2 is speaking to the people of Ephesus.
Revelation 2:4 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

4 But I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first charity.

If you continue reading to Revelation 2:7 St. John further defines what this first charity is:
Revelation 2:7 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

7 He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: To him, that overcometh, I will give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of my God.

The message I get from reading Revelation 2 is that we need to listen to the church, which the Spirit protects.

I also liked this verse:
Revelation 2:5 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

5 Be mindful therefore from whence thou art fallen: and do penance, and do the first works. Or else I come to thee, and will move thy candlestick out of its place, except thou do penance.

It says to remember from where we are fallen from. As we read on it says to do penance and the first works. What are the first works? But more importantly why doesn’t St. John say to “have the first faith”? I am not scholarly in all other forms of Christianity but from my studies it seems the Catholic church is hammered on every time we mention confession or works.

God Bless

 

[spedteacherita]

The Bible is authored by the Catholic Church, who is its authority (Paul, as a Catholic after Christ, wrote his letters; Moses as a Catholic before Jesus and preparing the way for Jesus, wrote the Torah, etc; and the bishops of the Church bound them together into a book for use by all Catholics to use). If you are reading a Bible, it is not your book, but was taken from Catholics as if it were some ordinary book. And you read it as if you think you could understand. But this book was meant to be explained to Catholics by Catholics. If you wish to be Catholic, you will then be taught what it means by the Body that wrote it and compiled it. That is the authority, the Author, Christ in his Body the Church.

Is not God the Author of the Bible as the humans were inspired, inerrant Word of God?

To answer the OP, I understand Matthew 28:20 to be a promise given to His followers (Christians) after the Great Commandment to be with them/us that He will be with us to the end of the age. That, in context with verses 16-19, He will be there for us. He doesn’t promise that our lives will free from strife, rather, because of the authority given to Him in heaven and the earth, He will be with us, as we work to follow through on His commandment teaching and baptizing others in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.