Does Pat Roberson think he is God

[greggy53]

:sad_yes:

I think that’s right.
Pat Robertson has a long history of claiming to have messages from God. (He also has, on occasion, claimed to be able to change God’s mind, which may be the really scary part).
I have been aware for some time that there are rumblings in evangelical circles about his [apparent] mental decline.
What is patently true is that: PR talks too much; and he thinks [and says] that an awful lot of people that you & I recognize as Christian, are actually nothing of the sort. He has a right to his opinion on the latter. The trouble is, that he consistent refuses to keep said opinion to himself. This is a problem of long standing.

Now I will give my own opinion: If (which God forbid!) his hometown of Virginia Beach were visited by destruction, he would not take one scintilla of the blame on himself.
Annie has the right of it: He is on dangerous ground spiritually.:twocents:

He’d be quick to ask for donations too…Did he ask for money to help the people of Haiti?

 

[greggy53]

As a former Protestant, I’m not an admirer of Pat Robertson or fundamentalists in general. However I think Cathloics can also guilty of an equal and opposite error if we think God doesn’t judge, not only at the final judgement, but also in historical circumstances and even in natural disasters. I think in one respect 9/11 was a judgment, in the sense that it has drawn the US into two very expensive wars overseas, and has brought the “post-Christian” West into deeper conflict and confrontation with Islam, the other Abrahamic challenger.

I know this much - God isn’t soft. I don’t like HIm much sometimes.

The truth is that we don’t know just how much God may or may not have been involved in this natural disaster. I had an old pastor whose accuracy in predictions was uncanny. He was a good and holy man. I remember him saying to me once, in his office, “I think God’s doing something to the sun.” I think He is too. After all Revelation talks about the sun burning men’s skin and their cursing Him for it. Either God’s going to be responsible for that or nobody is.

And after all why is it that Haiti and the Dominican Republic right next door should be so different in achievement? Some of the reasons are given in the attached link, but I would think that an official line which promoted a pact with the devil would not be a great way to found and maintain a nation.

Years ago I attended Protestant churches, and learned their dogma. Their theology, and mindset taught me this: When something bad happens to a “non-believer” (read: non-evangelical Christian) it’s God’s judgment on them. When something bad happens to a ‘believer” (read evangelical/ Pentecostal bible believing Christian) it’s the result of living in a fallen world and you are compared to poor Job. When I was young I was laid off from work (early 80’s) with a wife and 3 children to care for. Some members of the Assembly of God church we were attending told us I was having difficulties (read poor) because of sin in my life. This thinking is the result and part of the Calvin heresy and is propagated by many Protestant churches here in the States. It took me quite a while after I returned to the Church to stop looking over my shoulder every time I made a mistake, or sinned waiting for God to clobber me for it.
911 was not a judgment from God it was mans inhumanity toward his fellow man. We did it to ourselves! Why? Because we live in a fallen world where men who have a free will choose evil over goodness. Haiti was a natural disaster that occurred because it is a fallen world. Not because some voodoo pagans made a pact with the devil hundreds of years ago. God loves us and does not send evil down on us. He allows it to happen because he made us with a free will.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I have never heard of Donald Miller before, but I do like what he has to say.

 

[Good_Fella]

The Haiti people have just had the wrost Eartquahe in years and Pat is saying that it is the work of God How can this man get on TV and say this to the people of the world,I think it time to check Pat IQ this is very say for a preach to get on TV and say it was for God and this guy was running for the # office in American

In whatever form evil transpires, it is not intended by God, but only permitted by Him for the sake of a higher good purpose. Evil isn’t a positive force which exists in its own right as opposed to God’s infinite goodness. As St. Augustine wisely perceived by the infused grace of knowledge he had received through the Holy Spirit, evil is the absence of good, anything contrary to the divine intention in whatever form that it apparently assumes. Some Protestants I have had debates with actually believe that God is the author of both good and evil. They are convinced that God intentionally wills the befalling of evil in the lives of persons who deserve to be chastized. But Scripture teaches us that God is the author of all that is good in creation. For goodness is a perfect divine attribute of God. All his works, intentionally made by Him, are good.

The belief in God as also the author of evil is contradictory to the orthodox Judeo-Christian tradition. The existence of such a First Cause presupposes that evil is a perfect divine attribute of his. It even denies the existence of God, for God would not be God if indeed he possessed two irreconcilable attributes radicallly opposed to each other, one attribute negating the other in turn. There is no change in God. Moreover, God would have to compromise his own justice by intentionally willing evil and at the same time ejecting Lucifer from heaven and banishing Adam and Eve from paradise. And if there is no justice in the intimate life of God, then there can be no mercy - only caprice as the result of a purposeless whim for the sake of blind pleasure: a human inclination through concupiscence which God strictly condemns. Some have imagined a god who should practice what he preaches!

We have an omnipotent god who lacks wisdom; providence divorced from prudence. But Scripture assures us that God can never be irrational, erratic, or inconstant. Jesus told us that we must become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven. In otherwords, we must be simple in soul as our heavenly Father is simple in spirit. Now God is an obscure darkness to the finite human intellect, but the god these Protestants believe in is not only mysterious; he is rather complicated like a soul which cannot rest in God and find its peace in Him alone.

God saw everything that he had made, and indeed it was very good.
Genesis 1, 31

The wicked man’s schemes are an abomination to the Lord.
Proverbs 15, 26

Your justice is like the highest mountains; your judgments like the mighty deep.
Psalm 36, 7

Only goodness and mercy [love] shall follow me all the days of my life.
Psalm 23, 6

God is not the author of confusion.
1 Corinthians 14, 33

Seek the Lord in simplicity of heart.
Wisdom 1, 1

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[bridgeforsale]

So now you choose to be sarcastic to me?

It does support my comment about bigotry being so widespread that a charge of bigotry against Pat is quite meaningless.

With regard to your latter statement, perhaps. Nonetheless, you’ve redeemed yourself with your post (that immediately follows the one I’m responding to here), so this is perhaps a moot issue (at least as far as I’m concerned). I’ll simply point out that you did give the impression at least that you were acting as an apologist for Robertson. Had you qualified your earlier statements we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation (and I wouldn’t have openly ridiculed the idea that some people think an invisible spirit talks to them, although don’t get me wrong, I still think it’s bizarre and untrue).

 

[bridgeforsale]

In whatever form evil transpires, it is not intended by God, but only permitted by Him for the sake of a higher good purpose. Evil isn’t a positive force which exists in its own right as opposed to God’s infinite goodness.

Depends on your view of claims like the Exodus from Egypt doesn’t it? After all in Exodus god does first warn the Jews to put blood over their doorways, then he caused the slaughter of I imagine thousands of Egyptian male infants and young children. There’s no reasonable way to describe this as a passive (much less unintended) act of mass murder. It’s clearly a premeditated and affirmative act by god. In this case god murdered infants to persuade a political leader to change his mind. It seems to me either you think this is true or you reject the literal language of Exodus (and then you may as well agree with the majority of archeologists who believe the event never happened in the first place).

However, if you believe god could do something like the acts depicted in Exodus, then why not believe divine providence could have been behind the recent earthquake in Haiti? It’s certainly consistent with his previous behavior

Anyways, sorry to deviate from the topic (but your statement here sort of drew me in).

 

[AmateurPianist]

With regard to your latter statement, perhaps. Nonetheless, you’ve redeemed yourself with your post (that immediately follows the one I’m responding to here), so this is perhaps a moot issue (at least as far as I’m concerned). I’ll simply point out that you did give the impression at least that you were acting as an apologist for Robertson. Had you qualified your earlier statements we probably wouldn’t be having this conversation (and I wouldn’t have openly ridiculed the idea that some people think an invisible spirit talks to them, although don’t get me wrong, I still think it’s bizarre and untrue).

Sorry.

Although I thought I was being clear, it did occur to me that maybe there was a misunderstanding and I was not clearly representing myself. Hence that post.

BTW, Rev. Pat is not the only one claiming an unusual cause and effect relationship with respect to the Haiti earthquake.

 

[jmcrae]

I think that Pat Robertson needs to hang up his microphone and call it a day. He’s definitely lost it. Thank God he never became President.

My husband’s comment when he heard what Pat Robertson had said was, “In that country, the nut-bars must be pretty thick on the ground. How the heck did he get hold of a microphone, and why did anybody report what he said? A comment like that should have just drifted off into the empty air, with no one to hear or repeat it.”

 

[Good_Fella]

Depends on your view of claims like the Exodus from Egypt doesn’t it? After all in Exodus god does first warn the Jews to put blood over their doorways, then he caused the slaughter of I imagine thousands of Egyptian male infants and young children. There’s no reasonable way to describe this as a passive (much less unintended) act of mass murder. It’s clearly a premeditated and affirmative act by god. In this case god murdered infants to persuade a political leader to change his mind. It seems to me either you think this is true or you reject the literal language of Exodus (and then you may as well agree with the majority of archeologists who believe the event never happened in the first place).

However, if you believe god could do something like the acts depicted in Exodus, then why not believe divine providence could have been behind the recent earthquake in Haiti? It’s certainly consistent with his previous behavior

Anyways, sorry to deviate from the topic (but your statement here sort of drew me in).

Do you consider your natural death an act of premeditated murder by God? God created us, so that gives Him the right to call us whenever He pleases. Even though God did not originally intend that we should die. It’s a universal law which He foresaw and permitted, brought about by the free fall of man.And so we aren’t created for this life in the first place, but for a better life, even greater than that original life in the terrestial paradise from which Adam and Eve were banished. (Their actual historical existence is beside the pont.) You may as well accuse God of murder for not having created you (assuming that He exists), if that were possible. Anyway, if we have lived a good life, then we’ll be forever happy with Him in a state that infinitely excels whatever pleasures we desire and seek in this life or can possibly imagine.

You can’t deny that happiness is the goal of your life. And you certainly desire what is supremely good, which alone can make you happy, although you have experienced thus far that absolute goodness and happiness cannot be obtained here. How do you explain the source of these sentiments of yours and your disappointments if there is no God? You are obviously concerned about the happiness and wellbeing of the Haitians.

But have no fear. God is the sovereign good and the true source of happiness. The eternal destiny of those who lost their lives in the earthquake rests on God’s justice and mercy in His righteousness and goodness. If you don’t believe in God, which I presume, then lay the blame on mother nature where it should belong. If I didn’t believe in God, I would see no reason to concern myself with what is just or merciful. Indeed, if there were no God, I couldn’t possibly. Mother nature is totally indifferent to moral principles, so she couldn’t possibly be the first cause of your sentiments. She has no concern for what is right and wrong, what should or should not be. And obviously it would be awkward to think that mother nature permitted the earthquake to happen just as it did as a matter of fact, since she is a blind, unintelligent force, so to speak.

PAX :heaven:

 

[greggy53]

Depends on your view of claims like the Exodus from Egypt doesn’t it? After all in Exodus god does first warn the Jews to put blood over their doorways, then he caused the slaughter of I imagine thousands of Egyptian male infants and young children. There’s no reasonable way to describe this as a passive (much less unintended) act of mass murder. It’s clearly a premeditated and affirmative act by god. In this case god murdered infants to persuade a political leader to change his mind. It seems to me either you think this is true or you reject the literal language of Exodus (and then you may as well agree with the majority of archeologists who believe the event never happened in the first place).

However, if you believe god could do something like the acts depicted in Exodus, then why not believe divine providence could have been behind the recent earthquake in Haiti? It’s certainly consistent with his previous behavior

Anyways, sorry to deviate from the topic (but your statement here sort of drew me in).

Didn’t you read Good Fella post# 84 ??

 

[bridgeforsale]

Sorry.

Although I thought I was being clear, it did occur to me that maybe there was a misunderstanding and I was not clearly representing myself. Hence that post.

BTW, Rev. Pat is not the only one claiming an unusual cause and effect relationship with respect to the Haiti earthquake.

That is funny as heck, global warming caused an earthquake. Danny Glover (to spite my love for all the Lethal Weapon movies) seems to be losing it

Now he’s a scientist whose drawing a causal relationship I doubt out best supercomputer could establish (given the immense amount of data that would be required). I guess the idea is (without reading the article & assuming it at least tries to dig for some sort of rational basis) perhaps melting ice bergs is causing some sort of weight shift, or perhaps temperature increase is causing some sort of rock expansion (even though I think at this point we’re talking about tenths of degrees of warming, which doesn’t seem significant enough to cause this sort of thing, but anyway); and somehow this induced an earthquake.

Obviously (despite an inability to competely rule out such a quacky idea) this is intuitively ruled out by the simple fact this isn’t the first time an earth quake of this magnitude has occurred in Haiti (and in fact the last earthquake of this size in Haiti was about 200 years ago, long before any possible industrial contribution to global warming). The problem with global warming fanatics is they think we (humans) should for some reason subordinate our survival to the well being of plant and animal life. These flakes will bemoan the extinction of an animal species; and explain how evil mankind is (and why it’s our fault), without realizing 99.9% of all species that have ever lived, are today extinct (we call this process natural selection).

Freud said our natural compulsion is toward a desire to conquer nature, and I think he was exactly right (and there’s no reason for us to either deny it or feel guilty for it). We naturally want to live longer (nothing likes to die), we naturally want to control our atmosphere, our biology, and if we ever gain control of these things, it’s conceivable we’ll want to control space. There’s really no reason to limit our imagination in this regard (and certainly no reason to invent rules based on some superficial and self-invented moral code, which sort of submits us to nature). If you think about it this left wing tree huggerism is like a religion (and it’s slavish in the same sort of way).

 

[bridgeforsale]

Do you consider your natural death an act of premeditated murder by God? God created us, so that gives Him the right to call us whenever He pleases.

Suffice it to say I don’t accept the moral analogy between the intentionally slaughter of thousands of infants and young children, and biological mortality, as valid. It’s a philosophically weak explanation (and frankly I’m glad modern archeology pretty much removes the Exodus from reasonable historical possibility, because I’d hate to think god needed to slaughter a few thousands babies to convince one guy to do his bidding).

 

[emeraldcoast]

youtube.com/watch?v=xOPvc0HvsAY

“A video response to Pat Robertson’s recent comments that the tragedy in Haiti is God’s payback for a bargain with the devil.”

God Bless!!

 

[Good_Fella]

Suffice it to say I don’t accept the moral analogy between the intentionally slaughter of thousands of infants and young children, and biological mortality, as valid. It’s a philosophically weak explanation (and frankly I’m glad modern archeology pretty much removes the Exodus from reasonable historical possibility, because I’d hate to think god needed to slaughter a few thousands babies to convince one guy to do his bidding).

You fail to understand what I mean. Since God gave us life in the first place, it is wrong for one to accuse him of murder by taking our lives through natural means, notwithstanding whether he directly intervenes and causes our natural deaths to occur for a just and merciful purpose, as was the case with all the Egyptian male firstborn. Murder is the immoral taking of a human life by another human being. It is absolutely unjust. The Fifth Commandment literally states in the original Hebrew: Thou shall not murder. Not: Thou shall not kill. Not all of the taking of human life on our part is immoral and unjust. If it were so, Abraham Lincoln would not have had the natural right to wage a just war. And God would certainly condradict himself by dismissing one of his own commandments which he gave to us for our good and happiness.

God killed the firstborn Egyptian males, but he did not murder them, for he acted in his justice towards Egypt and in his mercy towards his chosen people. Moses warned pharoah what God would allow and do if he refused to release the Israelites from slavery. God’s warnings of the impending plagues illustrate how his justice is tempered by his mercy. If God were as cruel as you make him out to be, he would have sent all ten plagues without first warning the pharoah. But God warned him, because in his mercy and compassion he desired to spare Egypt all these calamities and the suffering. God has no intention of inflicting evil. But he will allow it to come to pass for a just and merciful purpose, even if he has to get directly involved, because of our obstinate hearts.

PAX :heaven:

 

[bridgeforsale]

You fail to understand what I mean. Since God gave us life in the first place, it is wrong for one to accuse him of murder by taking our lives through natural means, notwithstanding whether he directly intervenes and causes our natural deaths to occur for a just and merciful purpose, as was the case with all the Egyptian male firstborn. Murder is the immoral taking of a human life by another human being. It is absolutely unjust. The Fifth Commandment literally states in the original Hebrew: Thou shall not murder. Not: Thou shall not kill. Not all of the taking of human life on our part is immoral and unjust. If it were so, Abraham Lincoln would not have had the natural right to wage a just war. And God would certainly condradict himself by dismissing one of his own commandments which he gave to us for our good and happiness.

IMHO this is yet another illusory anology. This time President Lincoln’s declaration of war against the South is presented as analogous to the intentional killing of innocent infants and young children, in order to persuade a political leader to change his course of conduct.

You’re almost saying god can do anything, no matter how horrible, and it’s always good; except that you say the slaughter of the Egyptian first born was for a merciful purpose. Essentially, when god did his balancing test, he decided rather than use some other method to free the Hebrews, like simply killing Pharaoh himself (and installing someone more amenable to persuasion), he would kill a few thousand little innocent babies instead. Now if that’s all loving, I shutter to think what all hating might look like. If you want to wonder why so called men of god did things like burned other human beings alive in past centuries, we only need look at the example set by this character (a very uncomplimentary portrayal of god).

Oh btw, also remember the roots of the Exodus story (in Genesis). God lured the Jews into Egypt, we can assume knowing they would eventually be enslaved by the Egyptians, so he could be their hero and save them. It’s like setting a house on fire, then running into save the family, and having the audacity to call yourself a hero. It might work if you were smart enough not to disclose your conduct. So we can either think that god isn’t very smart, or the guys who invented this story weren’t very smart (at least by today’s standards). I think the truth is obvious enough

God killed the firstborn Egyptian males, but he did not murder them, for he acted in his justice towards Egypt and in his mercy towards his chosen people.Moses warned pharoah what God would allow and do if he refused to release the Israelites from slavery. God’s warnings of the impending plagues illustrate how his justice is tempered by his mercy. If God were as cruel as you make him out to be, he would have sent all ten plagues without first warning the pharoah. But God warned him, because in his mercy and compassion he desired to spare Egypt all these calamities and the suffering. God has no intention of inflicting evil. But he will allow it to come to pass for a just and merciful purpose, even if he has to get directly involved, because of our obstinate hearts.

I know the story, and I’m glad that’s all it is, a story. I’d like to think the god of the universe, who triggered the quantum fluctuation or whatever put the big bang in motion that ultimately led to biological evolution and then us, is way smarter and more rational than our primitive myths make him out to be. Don’t get me wrong, at least Christianity isn’t as horrific as Islam (and since the enlightenment the warm embrace of secular liberal democratic society has moderated the worse propencity of religiosity, as seen during the inquisition, witch hunts, and all the rest). And certainly Christianity has given us some good things; and I don’t think believing in a god is irrational. I just personally can’t swallow the version of god we’re handed by religion.

 

[Good_Fella]

IMHO this is yet another illusory anology. This time President Lincoln’s declaration of war against the South is presented as analogous to the intentional killing of innocent infants and young children, in order to persuade a political leader to change his course of conduct.

Another illusory analogy? Hardly. My first analogy demonstrated how impossible it is for God to be accused of committing murder. Murder is the morally unjust taking of human life for the reason that another person’s life doesn’t belong to us. It is a sin to forcefully take anything that doesn’t belong to us, including our own lives. God has the right to take what belongs to him even if it is our very life and existence, for he created us. But since God cannot commit an evil act, he would never take a human life unjustly with no good purpose in mind. A murderer is totally indifferent to justice and morality. He is only concerned about gratifying his passion and serving his self-interest. God acted in the just interest of his chosen people out of mercy and goodness to his glory. The fact that the firstborn sons included infants doesn’t make God’s intervention an evil act. The greater good was served by the smiting of the firstborn: the liberation of the Israelites from slavery and oppression. God is infinite goodness, so he couldn’t choose the lesser good, the creation and subsistence of lives of the firstborn males, over the greater. Mr. Lincoln found himself in a similar position, only for him it was a dilemma. He had the choice of either turning a blind eye to the immoral institution of slavery or wiping it out of existence by signing a declaration that would surely send thousands of men to their deaths. I am sure he agonized over what he felt justly compelled to do for a higher cause as he held his pen.

You’re almost saying god can do anything, no matter how horrible, and it’s always good; except that you say the slaughter of the Egyptian first born was for a merciful purpose.

God can do anything he pleases in the exercise of his will and governance of his creation. But God does nothing in denial of his infinite justice, mercy, and goodness. The smiting of the innocence was a tragic event, and emotionally disturbing to some people, but not an intrinsically evil one, for God did not commit an evil act. It may appear horrible to you, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that God committed the evil act of murder. You still have to demonstrate how God is a murderer without appealing to your emotions. Show us how God committed an unjust and selfish act… .

Essentially, when god did his balancing test, he decided rather than use some other method to free the Hebrews, like simply killing Pharaoh himself (and installing someone more amenable to persuasion), he would kill a few thousand little innocent babies instead. Now if that’s all loving, I shutter to think what all hating might look like.

In case you don’t know, nine plagues in the form of natural phenomena had visted the Egyptians before the tenth and final fatal plague came down upon them. God could have bypassed these chastisements, since he infallibly knew that the pharoah would remain obdurate. But God allowed these other plagues to happen to demonstrate his infinite mercy. If the pharoah hadn’t hardened his heart against God and his conscience, the firstborn males would have been spared. All moral responsibilty for their deaths lie at pharoah’s door. Meanwhile, God must have infallibly foreknown that the next pharoah would be no less incorrigible. He knew what he was compelled to do to persuade the pharoah to release the Jews.

Oh btw, also remember the roots of the Exodus story (in Genesis). God lured the Jews into Egypt, we can assume knowing they would eventually be enslaved by the Egyptians, so he could be their hero and save them. It’s like setting a house on fire, then running into save the family, and having the audacity to call yourself a hero.

God didn’t lure the Israelites. He led and guided them. God infallibly foreknew that the Egyptians would enslave his chosen people, but he permitted their slavery so that the Israelites would better see how dependent they were on God’s grace for their existence and the keeping of their covenant with God. God’s omnipotence is tempered by his wisdom as his justice is tempered by his mercy.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher that your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55, 8-9

For I know the thoughts that I think towards you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jeremiah 29, 11

PAX :heaven:

 

[greggy53]

Suffice it to say I don’t accept the moral analogy between the intentionally slaughter of thousands of infants and young children, and biological mortality, as valid. It’s a philosophically weak explanation (and frankly I’m glad modern archeology pretty much removes the Exodus from reasonable historical possibility, because I’d hate to think god needed to slaughter a few thousands babies to convince one guy to do his bidding).

I wouldn’t count too much on what modern archeology says. Not too many years ago they told us the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah never existed. And then they found them…ooops!

 

[Randy_Carson]

Does anyone know the history behind Robertson’s statement?

I’m doubtful that he simply made this idea up; he must have read something somewhere along these lines.

So, what is the historical basis for his statement?

 

[greggy53]

Does anyone know the history behind Robertson’s statement?

I’m doubtful that he simply made this idea up; he must have read something somewhere along these lines.

So, what is the historical basis for his statement?

In all fairness to Robertson I don’t think he would have said the kind of things he says now-a-days 20 years ago. Old age has caught up with him, and it’s too bad no one in his family has taken the steps to secure his retirement from public life.

 

[bridgeforsale]

I wouldn’t count too much on what modern archeology says. Not too many years ago they told us the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah never existed. And then they found them…ooops!

I assume you’re talking about Dead Sea Works? If not please by all means provide a link and more details. There’s always archeologists out there who think they know where a biblical site is; but it usually doesn’t pan out well (and in the case of Sodom & Gomorrah there’s nothing close to consensus within the archeological community, at least as far as I can tell). I think they found some salt deposits and sulpher and I guess to some that’s evidence that god lunged a giant fireball at a few ancient towns