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FCEGM
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Jacques Maritain’s Three Reformers, for one, Tiggy. I’ll get back to you with some more.
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ryanoneil
Guest
But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:15)
“suffer loss” Zemioo (Greek): to “forfeit”, “sustain loss”, or “incur a penalty”. The Greek OT uses this verb to denote personal suffering. (Prov 22:3) as well as financial penalties (Ex 21:22; Deut 22:19; Prov 17:26). The Gospel uses it for the frightful prospective of losing eternal life (Mt 16:26; Mk 8:36; Lk 9:25). In 1 Cor 3:15, it refers to spiritual damage suffered by Christian leaders who are careless and uncommitted in their tast of building up the Church. The context suggests that Paul is alluding to labor relations familiar to the ancient world. Indeed ths and related terms were used in building contracts to establish fines for damage or defective workmanship on projects that failed to pass inspection. - IGNATIOUS Cathoic Study Bible
“he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire. - scripturecatholic.com
Basically, careful builders will recieve a heavenly reward (3:14); careless builders will pass through purging fires on their way to salvation (3:15); and destructive workers will themselves be destroyed (3:17)
“suffer loss” Zemioo (Greek): to “forfeit”, “sustain loss”, or “incur a penalty”. The Greek OT uses this verb to denote personal suffering. (Prov 22:3) as well as financial penalties (Ex 21:22; Deut 22:19; Prov 17:26). The Gospel uses it for the frightful prospective of losing eternal life (Mt 16:26; Mk 8:36; Lk 9:25). In 1 Cor 3:15, it refers to spiritual damage suffered by Christian leaders who are careless and uncommitted in their tast of building up the Church. The context suggests that Paul is alluding to labor relations familiar to the ancient world. Indeed ths and related terms were used in building contracts to establish fines for damage or defective workmanship on projects that failed to pass inspection. - IGNATIOUS Cathoic Study Bible
“he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire. - scripturecatholic.com
Basically, careful builders will recieve a heavenly reward (3:14); careless builders will pass through purging fires on their way to salvation (3:15); and destructive workers will themselves be destroyed (3:17)
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Mickey
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It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments…
Laetentur Coeli, Council of Florence (1439)
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Mickey
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Is this speculation?
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Mickey
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The teaching about the purifying fire is a consequence of the whole Franco-Latin tradition as it is expressed by the so-called scholastic theology. Actually, as we have also said before, scholastic theology, which disengaged itself from the empirical, hesychastic and neptic theology of the Orthodox Church, has done a great deal of harm in the West.
According to Western theology, which was based on St. Augustine, the ancestral sin is inherited from Adam by all the descendants, and God’s justice has condemned all mankind to Hell and prescribed the penalty of death77. Therefore, according to the Franco-Latin tradition, hell and death are a punishment by God and not an illness, as the Orthodox Church teaches.
As a consequence of this teaching, the Franco-Latins were led into the theory of punishment and a purifying fire. The Franks, since they believed that the punished do not see God, considered the fire of hell as created. It is in this light that we must see Dante’s Hell, where the sinners will be tormented by the created fire of Hell. Thus the Franco-Latins imagine the world as three-storeyed, made up of the unchanging heaven for the fortunate, the changing earth for the testing of men and the changing underworld for those punished and being purified78.
Of course the Franco-Latins, as we have said before, also speak of the vision of the essence of God by the righteous and the purified. In other words, by their grace and their reason, those saved will see God and the archetypes of beings, which exist in Him. By this vision of the divine essence the souls will be released from desire, passion, and changing, and so will become unchangingly happy79. Needless to say, the Orthodox Church does not accept these views, since the archetypes of beings do not exist in God. God creates, foresees and saves the world by His uncreated energy.
Likewise the Franco-Latins did not understand apophatic theology correctly; they took it more as a theology of conjecture. In Orthodox theology the glory of God is put in terms of opposites: light and dark, fire and darkness. The first antithesis is about the glory of the righteous, the second is about the state of sinners. These antitheses are used not because antitheses exist in God, but in order to express the truth that there is no likeness between the uncreated glory of God and created things80.
In any case these presuppositions of the Franco-Latins led western theologians into a teaching about a purifying fire, by which the sinners and penitents will be punished so that in that way they may attain the vision of the essence of God. Therefore we maintain that the Latins’ dogma about a purifying fire is not independent of the basic structures of the scholastic theology of the West.
Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
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mardukm
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Thanks for the citation. When I did the search, I used the word “Purgatory” and got one hit and it did not use the word “punishment.” Still, my original comments stand. It is plain even from the language of Florence that the punishment is meant to be cleansing and not retributive. So why does there seem to be a focus on retribution instead of cleansing in the LAY understanding when the official conciliar documents don’t reflect that understanding? Like I said, my original comments stand.
Blessings,
Marduk
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Mickey
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Good question. I was always taught by the nuns that purgatorial was a painful retribution by fire.
I believe the West has been a bit waffled about their teaching on purgatory over the ages.
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mardukm
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I just had to laugh when I read that description of the Latin Church’s teaching from the cow’s mouth instead of the horse’s. I don’t have time to critique all the errors in that excerpt, though I’m sure brother Ghosty will have a field day!
Needless to say, it is a blessing that the Orthodox Church does not accept those views – but then again, neither does the Latin Catholic Church!
Blessings,
Marduk
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cazayoux
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The quick of it …
Nothing dirty can enter heaven.
Your sins are dirty. (Jesus’ death does not keep you from sinning)
You take a shower (purgatory) before going to heaven.
michel
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ryanoneil
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**Many shall be refined, purified, and tested, but the wicked shall prove wicked; none of them shall have understanding, but the wise shall have it. (Dan 12:10)
Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. (Wis 3:5-6)
In all the land, says the LORD, two thirds of them shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left. I will bring the one third through fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and I will test them as gold is tested. They shall call upon my name, and I will hear them. I will say, “They are my people,” and they shall say, “The LORD is my God.” (Zech 13:8-9)
But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner’s fire, or like the fuller’s lye. He will sit refining and purifying (silver), and he will purify the sons of Levi, Refining them like gold or like silver that they may offer due sacrifice to the LORD. (Mal 3:2-3)**
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Mickey
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I have been taught many things by the Latin Catholic Church—which later told me that it is not really what the Latin Catholic Church teaches. It confused me growing up.
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Mickey
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That’s what the nuns always told me!
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fhansen
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**Well, purgatory is also known as a “place” of purification, of course. We believe that anything God does is done from love and for our good. While we don’t know much about purgatory or so many specifics about the afterlife in general, for that matter, some of this is speculation on my part but it gets back to Gods purposes.
Adam & Eve made a wrong choice. Their wills were not aligned with Gods’. Gods’ purpose now is not to merely snap His fingers and allow us off the hook and into heaven without real change taking place. Otherwise He may as well have not bothered with the whole casting-us-out-of-the-garden thing; another gesture often referred to as punishment but which has its reformative/educative value as well.
What man needs to learn is that Gods will, for us to love Him with our whole hearts, souls, minds, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves, never putting created things including our own agendas above that love, really is the ultimate good for us. And that doesn’t come overnight. The rejection of God and the attachment to lesser things is something man carries with him no matter where we go-I know now that I carry this-there are still things other than God which have my attention as possible sources of my happiness-and this brings with it a struggle. That struggle is probably intensified in purgatory-perhaps Gods’ radiant presence is more immediate or less dim there in some way- closer in its’ attainability-especially since those in that place or state have the knowledge that eternal life will definitely be theirs. But until we are totally surrendered in will to Him, heaven isn’t yet the place for us.
**
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FCEGM
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Instructive reading on this would be St. Teresa of Jesus’ (aka “of Avila”) The Interior Castle, and St. John of the Cross’ The Spiritual Canticle (I believe the texts of both are available online).
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fhansen
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Mary
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FCEGM
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Two important books to read would be:
- The prestigious 10 vol. History of the Church, by Hubert Jedin, translated from the German, has the entire 5th volume, 600 pp of text, devoted to the Reformation and the Counter-Reformation. The bibliography is another 100 pages. The first section is 9 chapters and 100 pages; it gives a comprehensive summary of Luther’s early years as well as his works, one at a time. Sections two and three continue the story.
- The Dividing of Christendom, by Christopher Dawson.
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mardukm
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In my three-year journey to the Catholic Church, I understood enough about the Catholic Church to know that it was magisterial in its ecclesiology. So I knew that if I had a question, I needed to look to its Magisterium for the answer instead of popular, or even apologetic opinion. The Magisterium’s teaching is what led me to the Catholic Church - i.e., I kept my focus on only official, conciliar or magisterial documents in my study of the Catholic Church. I think that is why I was not all that confused - plus since I only hung around Orthodox at the time, I was not exposed to any of the “Catholic” dissenters and popular pious beliefs that might have confused me.I have been taught many things by the Latin Catholic Church—which later told me that it is not really what the Latin Catholic Church teaches. It confused me growing up.
Blessings,
Marduk
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rinnie
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Perfect answer. That is for sure!
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Mickey
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I am happy for you.
Yes, it was difficult for me to separate the truth of what the magisterium claimed to teach, from the half-truths which were being fed to me by those commissioned to teach the magisterial truths. When all was said and done–my journey was similar to yours. It was the Holy Scripture, The seven Holy Councils, Holy Tradition, and the teachings of the holy Church Fathers which led me to Holy Orthodoxy.
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VociMike
Guest
Is what speculation?
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