Does purgatory really exist?

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fhansen said:
We were even told back then, I believe, that the idea of it being a place was probably a figurative usage of the word-that we didn’t know exactly how the program worked “there”.
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“Probably”?
 
fhansen said:
I can’t speak for other Catholics but I was a pre-VatII Latin cradle Catholic who left the Church and later, as a Protestant, rejected the doctrine of purgatory outright as unbiblical but even then I never considered the language which described it as a “place” with fire and punishment to be necessarily literal. We were even told back then, I believe, that the idea of it being a place was probably a figurative usage of the word-that we didn’t know exactly how the program worked “there”.
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:yup: It seems that the problem Orthodoxy has is that it sees the images often used in explanations of the doctrine as the doctrine itself. Byzantine Catholics don’t use the term “purgatory” in their liturgy or prayers, they have an ancient and strong tradition of praying for the dead (as do the Eastern Orthodox). Who are they praying for? Those in heaven don’t need our prayers and those in hell cannot benefit from our prayers. The logical answer is those who are in a state of final cleansing on their way to heaven.

The defined teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is meant for all Catholics, whether Western or Eastern. The key issue is not so much the term (the word “purgatory” having a Latin root), but the reality of the doctrine. And that is certainly held by the Byzantine Catholic Churches, just as it was held by the great Eastern bishop St. John Chrysostom who says this regarding the dead and the need for our prayers:
"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. (Hom in 1 Cor. 41)
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Mickey said:
It should also be observed that the Rich Man saw Abraham with Lazarus in his bosom. He saw the glory of Abraham, but he had no share in this glory. By contrast, Lazarus both saw it and participated in it. This is a very significant point, for it shows that in that other life everyone will see God, but the righteous will have communion, participation, while the sinners will not. A characteristic example is what Christ said about the coming judgement. All will see the Judge, all will converse with Him, but some will enjoy His glory and others will experience the caustic energy of divine grace.
****Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
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But you are missing a better point. Hell is TOTAL separation from God. You reject God, want nothing to do with God, and will not repent. First of all was the rich man repenting? (was he sorry) next How could someone be in hell and see heaven? Goes totally against scripture. You cannot be in hell and look up and see heaven, there was separation I agree. But not TOTAL. So again where was the rich man?
 
FCEGM said:
:yup: It seems that the problem Orthodoxy has is that it sees the images often used in explanations of the doctrine as the doctrine itself. Byzantine Catholics don’t use the term “purgatory” in their liturgy or prayers, they have an ancient and strong tradition of praying for the dead (as do the Eastern Orthodox). Who are they praying for? Those in heaven don’t need our prayers and those in hell cannot benefit from our prayers. The logical answer is those who are in a state of final cleansing on their way to heaven.

The defined teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatory is meant for all Catholics, whether Western or Eastern. The key issue is not so much the term (the word “purgatory” having a Latin root), but the reality of the doctrine. And that is certainly held by the Byzantine Catholic Churches, just as it was held by the great Eastern bishop St. John Chrysostom who says this regarding the dead and the need for our prayers:
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Very very good post. By the way my Dad always used Job as his example. That was his proof that someone could pray someone out of purgatory.
 
Mickey said:
This sounds like pick and choose. The dogma itself is of particular Latin belief. :whacky:
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Really? The belief of a state after death of purification is “particularly Latin?” The belief that our suffrages and prayers and sacrifices can help those in the afterlife is “particularly Latin?” If I were Latin, I would appreciate your demonstration of the centrality of the Latin Church, but as I am not, I think you are giving a little TOO much credit to the Latin Church for our beliefs.😃

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
Really? The belief of a state after death of purification is “particularly Latin?” The belief that our suffrages and prayers and sacrifices can help those in the afterlife is “particularly Latin?” If I were Latin, I would appreciate your demonstration of the centrality of the Latin Church, but as I am not, I think you are giving a little TOO much credit to the Latin Church for our beliefs.😃

Blessings,
Marduk
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But beings that I am RC can I enjoy the moment?:extrahappy:
 
FCEGM said:
It seems that the problem Orthodoxy has is that it sees the images often used in explanations of the doctrine as the doctrine itself.
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Then why not clarify the doctrine?
FCEGM said:
Byzantine Catholics don’t use the term “purgatory” in their liturgy or prayers, they have an ancient and strong tradition of praying for the dead (as do the Eastern Orthodox).
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Yes. I was Byzantine Catholic and was told many times by clergy and monastics that purgatory is not accepted.
FCEGM said:
Who are they praying for?
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The dead. Period.
FCEGM said:
Those in heaven don’t need our prayers and those in hell cannot benefit from our prayers.
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Do you claim to know who is going to heaven or hell? We pray for the dead. Period. There are foretastes of heaven and hell when the soul separates from the body, but there is no purgatorial holding state.
FCEGM said:
The logical answer is those who are in a state of final cleansing on their way to heaven.
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That is not logical—scholastic and legalistic perhaps–but not logical nor Scriptural.
 
FCEGM said:
just as it was held by the great Eastern bishop St. John Chrysostom who says this regarding the dead and the need for our prayers:
"Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them. (Hom in 1 Cor. 41)
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That has NOTHING to do with the doctrine of purgatory. We do not know who goes to heaven or hell, so we pray for the dead–that God will have mercy on us wretched sinners. That is what St John is saying.
 
rinnie said:
But you are missing a better point. Hell is TOTAL separation from God. You reject God, want nothing to do with God, and will not repent. First of all was the rich man repenting? (was he sorry) next How could someone be in hell and see heaven? Goes totally against scripture. You cannot be in hell and look up and see heaven, there was separation I agree. But not TOTAL. So again where was the rich man?
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Newsflash. The general Resurrection has not yet ocurred. The rich man could see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, but could not do anything about it. Do you think this intesified his misery? Are you saying that the rich man was in a purgatorial state and was undergoing purification?
 
mardukm said:
The belief of a state after death of purification is “particularly Latin?”
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Yes. The doctrine of purgatory has been set forth by the Roman Catholic Church. Are you not in submission to the Pope of Rome?
 
Mickey said:
Newsflash. The general Resurrection has not yet ocurred. The rich man could see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, but could not do anything about it. Do you think this intesified his misery? Are you saying that the rich man was in a purgatorial state and was undergoing purification?
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:newidea: That is exactly what I am telling you. Again if hell is total separation from God how could he be in hell. He was in a temporal hell. You seem to be hung up on the OT for some reason. Tell me do you not think that Jesus knew what was going to happen. Tell me this if not purgatory what was the reason for Jesus telling this story? Do you not think that Jesus did not know this was going to happen. Tell me what would you feel the purpose for Jesus telling this story was for. Just to shoot the breeze?:hmmm:
 
Mickey said:
In any case these presuppositions of the Franco-Latins led western theologians into a teaching about a purifying fire, by which the sinners and penitents will be punished so that in that way they may attain the vision of the essence of God. Therefore we maintain that the Latins’ dogma about a purifying fire is not independent of the basic structures of the scholastic theology of the West.
Metropolitan Hierotheos of Nafpaktos
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I apologize for not understanding what your post is driving at.
Could you explain it in simpler terms?

I also don’t know the term Franco-Latin. Is this an example?
“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).
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How about this?
“For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).
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Mickey said:
“Probably”?
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Mickey said:
That has NOTHING to do with the doctrine of purgatory. We do not know who goes to heaven or hell, so we pray for the dead–that God will have mercy on us wretched sinners. That is what St John is saying.
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If anyone “goes to heaven or hell”, where, exactly, are they going?

It’s a fact that we can’t relate to “placeless” states of being-we only relate to STEM-so people naturally resort to anthropomorphisms to attempt to describe concepts like heaven, hell, and purgatory.
 
Mickey said:
Yes. The doctrine of purgatory has been set forth by the Roman Catholic Church.
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As far as I know, the only thing particularly “Latin” about the dogma of Purgatory is the NAME. Aside from that, the dogma is patristic. Can you demonstrate to me that the DOGMA is NOT patristic?
Are you not in submission to the Pope of Rome?
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I am in obedience to my own bishop HG Kyrillos, who is in obedience to Patriarch Antonio Naguib, who is in obedience to the Pope Benedict XVI. I know that EO seem to view Christian obedience as mere submission. Well—that’s your cross to bear, not mine.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Mickey said:
Newsflash. The general Resurrection has not yet ocurred. The rich man could see Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham, but could not do anything about it. Do you think this intesified his misery? Are you saying that the rich man was in a purgatorial state and was undergoing purification?
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Also tell me this, what do you think any of our chances are at this moment to not be in some state of sin? Now lets say right now at this moment God chooses to take me out. When I meet him, and not knowing it was my second, did not make it to confession, therefore did not have a chance to confess and repent what is going to happen to me. Do you think Jesus is going to say ok, you are forgiven, Possibly I can give you that. But are you saying he is going to not make me repent. What about that saying about every penny paid, does that not mean we can have forgiveness but not repent. Show me one place in scripture where it says we do not have to confess And REPENT. Now if I do die not in the state of grace (no sin) then who is getting in. If not for purgatory how would I make it.
 
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