Does purgatory really exist?

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fhansen said:
so people naturally resort to anthropomorphisms to attempt to describe concepts like heaven, hell, and purgatory.
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We have not experienced heaven or hell–it is a mystery–one day you and I will know. But the Scriptures and holy Tradition tells me there is no purgatorial state as defined by Rome.
 
mardukm said:
As far as I know, the only thing particularly “Latin” about the dogma of Purgatory is the NAME. Aside from that, the dogma is patristic. Can you demonstrate to me that the DOGMA is NOT patristic?
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LOL! How do I demonstrate the non-existence of something that never existed?!? :rotfl:
mardukm said:
I am in obedience to my own bishop HG Kyrillos, who is in obedience to Patriarch Antonio Naguib, who is in obedience to the Pope Benedict XVI. I know that EO seem to view Christian obedience as mere submission. Well—that’s your cross to bear, not mine.
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No. I think it is yours, my friend.

LUMEN GENTIUM

**“This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; **that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will.”

~Dogmatic Constitution on the church #25
 
Mickey said:
We have not experienced heaven or hell–it is a mystery–one day you and I will know. But the Scriptures and holy Tradition tells me there is no purgatorial state as defined by Rome.
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Sorry Mick can’t let you off the hook. Tell me what is the def. of Hell. The true meaning? Define it.
 
Mickey said:
Marduk, do you agree with rinnie. Was the rich man in purgatory?
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I haven’t read your entire discussion. I agree with you that the rich man is experiencing a foretaste of hell. However, I don’t think rinnie has been trying to prove “purgatory” ---- yet. I think she is leading up to it, though.

Blessings,
Marduk
 
mardukm said:
I haven’t read your entire discussion. I agree with you that the rich man is experiencing a foretaste of hell. However, I don’t think rinnie has been trying to prove “purgatory” ---- yet. I think she is leading up to it, though.
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Yes she did. She claims that the rich man is in purgatory and uses this parable as her proof.
rinnie said:
Tell me this if not purgatory what was the reason for Jesus telling this story?
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rinnie said:
Also tell me this, what do you think any of our chances are at this moment to not be in some state of sin?
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I would say pretty good if you have just come from confession–and it was a really good confession. 😃
rinnie said:
Show me one place in scripture where it says we do not have to confess And REPENT.
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Repentance is crucial. We must confess and repent often while we are on this Earth. God will be merciful to you if you are sincere. I try to go to confession every week. Sadly, in many cases, it is a forgotten sacrament–yet absolutely crucial. Our baptism is renewed after confession–it is such a beautiful sacrament.

Do your best and let God do the rest. 🙂

God bless you rinnie!
 
rinnie said:
Tell me what is the definition of Hell. The true meaning? Define it.
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From dictionary.com 😃

hell  **–noun **
1.the place or state of punishment of the wicked after death; the abode of evil and condemned spirits; Gehenna or Tartarus.
2.any place or state of torment or misery: *They made their father’s life a hell on earth. *
3.something that causes torment or misery: *Having that cut stitched without anesthesia was hell. *
4.the powers of evil.
5.the abode of the dead; Sheol or Hades.
 
Mick whats this mean?

Judas Maccaveus made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin. Why? If they are in heaven why pray for them. And as we know hell (eternal separation) from God.

Why did Job pray for his kids Mick? Remember how they were sinning and partying in up in the beg, of Job. Not living moral lives.

Explain this to me there Mick. The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.

Here is a good one Jesus often speaks of Gehenna of the unquenchable fire reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted where body and soul can be lost. Now lets go back to the poor man, again did he refuse to be converted, If he did, where did Jesus say that.and did he not believe, why did he ask to go back and warn his brothers. Did it say that the rich man died in mortal sin, don’t recall Jesus saying that either? Was the rich man sorry, must have been, but still had compassion did he not. If you do not show compassion God will not show it to you. He looked to me like he was pretty worried for his brothers to me.
 
Mickey said:
I would say pretty good if you have just come from confession–and it was a really good confession. 😃

Repentance is crucial. We must confess and repent often while we are on this Earth. God will be merciful to you if you are sincere. I try to go to confession every week. Sadly, in many cases, it is a forgotten sacrament–yet absolutely crucial. Our baptism is renewed after confession–it is such a beautiful sacrament.

Do your best and let God do the rest. 🙂

God bless you rinnie!
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Yes my Love I agree with you 100%. But what if we did not have a chance to repent. What if we did not make it to confession. We go down the road and boom. gone. no last rites, no nothing. then what? Is God going to forgive us, lets hope, but we must repent. If not in this world the next my friend!
 
Mickey said:
Just an aside because I am curious–is the Coptic Catholic Church a particularly large community in the United States? Sorry for the derail.
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As far as I know, there are only two Coptic Catholic Churches in the U.S. One in L.A. The other one is in the East somewhere, I think Chicago or Detroit.
 
rinnie said:
Judas Maccaveus made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin. Why? If they are in heaven why pray for them. And as we know hell (eternal separation) from God…
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We do not know where they are. That is why we pray for the dead.
rinnie said:
Why did Job pray for his kids Mick?
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Do you have children? Do you pray for them? I pray for mine.
rinnie said:
The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.
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Your point?
rinnie said:
Now lets go back to the poor man, again did he refuse to be converted, If he did, where did Jesus say that.and did he not believe, why did he ask to go back and warn his brothers.
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Do you mean the rich man?
rinnie said:
Did it say that the rich man died in mortal sin, don’t recall Jesus saying that either? Was the rich man sorry, must have been, but still had compassion did he not. If you do not show compassion God will not show it to you. He looked to me like he was pretty worried for his brothers to me.
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It is obvious what happened to the rich man when he died. This is a great lesson for us to show mercy, compassion, and forgiveness while we are on this earth–as our Father in heaven shows mercy, compassion and forgiveness on us.

It is too late to repent after you die.
 
Mickey said:
I’m sorry. I do not see indications of the Latin doctrine of purgatory in the quotes you cited.
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OK. What do you think they are talking about?
Marduk, do you agree with rinnie. Was the rich man in purgatory?
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Hades, also called Sheol or the Pit, is a temporary realm where souls are detained until the Last Judgment.

When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, "Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld. (Rev 1:17-18)

The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. (Rev 20:13-16)
 
Dear Rinnie,
Mickey said:
Yes she did. She claims that the rich man is in purgatory and uses this parable as her proof.
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I don’t understand how you can use the parable of the Rich Man to prove Purgatory. The parable asserts that Abraham told the Rich Man that there was an UNBRIDGEABLE gap between where Abraham was and where the Rich Man was. That doesn’t sound like Purgatory to me.

I would use the parable of the unforgiving servant as proof. In the Coptic Tradition, the parable of the unforgiving servant is often used in catechetical lectures and homilies to indicate that state between death and the final reward where a soul can “pay the last farthing.” Of course, Orientals don’t generally use the Latin word to refer to that state (i.e., “Purgatory”).

Blessings,
Marduk
 
Mickey said:
That has NOTHING to do with the doctrine of purgatory. We do not know who goes to heaven or hell, so we pray for the dead–that God will have mercy on us wretched sinners. That is what St John is saying.
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Uh-huh. So prayers that acknowledge that the dead need prayers for their purification are thus meaningless, because a) they are either in Heaven and thus don’t really need the prayers since, being in Heaven, they ARE pure, or b/ they are in Hell and cannot be helped by the prayers. Makes sense to me.
 
mardukm said:
In the Coptic Tradition, the parable of the unforgiving servant is often used in catechetical lectures and homilies to indicate that state between death and the final reward where a soul can “pay the last farthing.”
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Hmmm? Matt 5:26. Does it not mean to make amends while we are on this earth–pay the last farthing while you can?

I thought Latin “purgatory” was described more as a cleansing of temporal venial sins–the backwash so to say. 😃
 
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