Does purgatory really exist?

[rinnie]

You are not clear here. I am a firm believer in continuous repentance while we are on this Earth–but I do not believe in purgatory.

Ok where do you think the final cleaning that Gods talks about it happens. Do you think that it happens here or in heaven then.

 

[Mickey]

Ok where do you think the final cleaning that Gods talks about it happens. Do you think that it happens here or in heaven then.

We do everything we can here.
After that, it is a great mystery.
We did not need the innovation of purgatory to explain this great mystery.

We will find out one day.

 

[Mickey]

Oh the rich man has a name Mickey.

Nope.
Lazarus has a name. The rich man does not for a reason. Could it be because he was scratched from the book of life?

Ask your priest.

 

[rinnie]

If you don’t mind me adding my two cents, I don’t think Luke 16 is the strongest text to show purgatory, but I don’t think it can be ruled out.

I agree with you on the non-ability to repent after death. I also think forgiveness can occur after death via (Mt 12:32).

As far as the unbridgeabele chasm, I’m only speculating. We say that Christ descended into “hell” in the Apostles Creed. I don’t know if He visit both sides of the chasm, and for what purpose.

Could the flames the rich man is suffering be those of (1 Cor 3:15)?

Is it possible that he is recieving the light beating of (Lk 12:48)?

If all those on the rich man’s side of the chasm are destined to eternal damnation, do they still recieve some of God’s grace until the final judgment? (The reason I ask this question is because the rich man still shows the grace of concern for his brothers).

I really don’t know the answer to these questions. It appears that the rich man is destined to hell, but I think it is plausible that the rich man is in purgatory. He may not be able to cross over to the Bosom of Abraham, but when Hades gives up it’s dead (Rev 20:13) is it possible that his name is found in the book of life?

The way I was taught is as far as Jesus going to hell. In the OT there was only death. But Jesus took away death. So when he went to (HELL) what he did was really went to release and I guess you can say judge them. Because in the OT since Adam and Eve sinned we only had death, But then Jesus by taking away death, free us all from death. So it really wasn’t like hell because not all of the People in the old days went to hell either. I really don’t think they were condemmed to the hell we think of today, IT was more of like they were asleep. Then like how when we die, our soul does not die, our body just does. So I guess you can say in a way he awoke them and thier souls departed like ours does today. Then you are judged. Do you undersand what I am saying?

 

[rinnie]

We do everything we can here.
After that, it is a great mystery.
We did not need the innovation of purgatory to explain this great mystery.

We will find out one day.

Okay, I agree we will find out some day. But back to the Point where do you think the final cleansing happens though, and what is the purpose for it.

 

[steve_b]

I agree with you on the non-ability to repent after death. I also think forgiveness can occur after death via (Mt 12:32).

Why not say for venial sin, both repent and forgiveness can occur?

ryan:

Could the flames the rich man is suffering be those of (1 Cor 3:15)?

Is it possible that he is recieving the light beating of (Lk 12:48)?

Very possible

ryan:

If all those on the rich man’s side of the chasm are destined to eternal damnation, do they still recieve some of God’s grace until the final judgment? (The reason I ask this question is because the rich man still shows the grace of concern for his brothers).

The rich man

• calls out to Abraham. He asks for help. This to me shows faith and hope that Abraham can interceed for the rich man and actually do something for his situation
• The rich man is told no. Just imagine how THAT bit of news felt! But he wasn’t discouraged. He persevers anyway, and asks Abraham to interceed to help his family so THEY don’t suffer the same. This shows me hope also, but most of all, charity on the part of the rich man. He can’t help himself nor will Abraham help him, and he knows it now. But he still tries to help others. That’s not just charity but IMO perfect charity. Doing something good for others with absolutely no expectation of a reward. In fact he knows there will be no reward for himself. Faith, Hope, AND Charity, are NOT virtues I think a soul in hell possesses.
  Therefore, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to think he is in purgatory being purified.

That’s MY 2 cents

ryan:

I really don’t know the answer to these questions. It appears that the rich man is destined to hell, but I think it is plausible that the rich man is in purgatory. He may not be able to cross over to the Bosom of Abraham, but when Hades gives up it’s dead (Rev 20:13) is it possible that his name is found in the book of life?

untill Jesus dies, ressurects and ascends to heaven, NOBODY can enter heaven including Abraham and Lazarus… This parable shows me several layers to “divides.”

• Lazarus and Abraham even though righteous, can’t crossover into heaven until Jesus completes His mission.
• the rich man is in the wood shed getting a wood shampoo, for what he did and didn’t do in this life, and he can’t cross over to Abraham’s side either…yet
• Then there’s gehenna, and the wailing and gnashing of teeth, … They will be there for all eternity. Based on what little we know of the rich man, but the few words he spoke, and the actions he attempted to orchestrate, I don’t have a sense the rich man is in gehnna…but I could be wrong.

 

[steve_b]

There is great meaning to the fact that the rich man does not have a name. .

IMO, He represents everyone… who didn’t respond to grace showered on them abundantly during this life. That grace makes everyone rich beyond compare. Everyone in that case IS rich.

 

[rinnie]

The only reason I think that we must repent venial sin also. Is because we are to repent all of our sins. I never read anywhere in the bible where God said you only must repent Mortal sins. That is where I think protestant and Catholics really get mixed up. As a catholic I am taught I can go to God and confess a venial sin because you can have those and still be righteous with God. He will listen to your prayers and asking for forgiveness, But if you are in mortal sin, you must have someone righteous pray with you and go with you to God, someone who has the power to do that. A priest is who can do that by the Powrer of the Holy Spirit.

And getting back to purgatory that is why I think you can get to purgatory with venial sin, but you still have to be cleansed from it. That is how I see being cleansed from you sin and then repenting the same as on earth. You still must repent after being forgiven. I can see it no other way.

 

[Mickey]

IMO, He represents everyone… who didn’t respond to grace showered on them abundantly during this life. That grace makes everyone rich beyond compare. Everyone in that case IS rich.

Lazarus is rich in grace and blessings.

But the rich man is cast out. The Lord says “I never knew you”.

If that is what you mean, then you are correct.

 

[Mickey]

where do you think the final cleansing happens though

I already answered your question.

 

[rinnie]

IMO, He represents everyone… who didn’t respond to grace showered on them abundantly during this life. That grace makes everyone rich beyond compare. Everyone in that case IS rich.

I can agree with that alot. I think that like you any time God gives a parable it is always geared to us personally. He just does not say it, I think he knows he does not have to. Because if you read every parable we can all see God putting us there one time and one way or another. Or if we cannot see ourself there we are very lucky and do not want to be there. How many can either relate or see many people who fit the rich man.

 

[rinnie]

Nope.
Lazarus has a name. The rich man does not for a reason. Could it be because he was scratched from the book of life?

Ask your priest.

I do not see that Jesus says the rich man is scratched from the book of life here Mickey. I do not even see Jesus mention the book of life. And I was always taught that if you do not accept Jesus Christ in your life that is mortal sin and it cannot be forgiven. I have never read that a venial sin can keep you from getting into heaven. I agree confession, the more the better, but I do not see where Jesus gave a case for the rich man to be in mortal sin with the example he gave. The rich man did not directly sin against God, he did not realize it. And he was sorry, and he was excepting what he got, he was being punished and did not say he did not deserve his punishment, which is repenting to me. He not only excepted his punishment, he was more worried about his brothers then himself. Don’t you think that he was sincere, and do you not think God also saw this, and could of had mercy on his after all. He could not have seen this as a way of keeping him away from God, and if he did not see it, he also saw that his brothers may not see it. Now if he would have said he was not sorry, and he did not regret what he did, and was not worried about his brothers, the I would agree he was doomed.

 

[coda]

I hold my hand high and admit that I am not without sin…
…but I give praise, thanks and glory that there is forgiveness for any sin commited when repenance is given. This is the grace of God. Why would a merciful God, after giving me grace want to continue to punish/purifiy me…when he reconciled humanity through Christ on the cross?

When you break a window, you not only have to say " I’m sorry", you also have to PAY for a new window. Think also of a white cloth stained by [a lifetime of} sin]. Repentance remitscleans} the ETERNAL punishment of the sin, however, the stain still remains… hence final purification in purgatory-- For those not fortunate enough to receive the last sacraments…

 

[coda]

Quite true. So, what sins can a saved person commit after having been saved, and still be saved?

Any and all. Catholics are “saved” at baptism—with a whole lifetime of sins and repentance to follow. Mortal sin=loss of grace= loss of salvation…/ Repentance=regain grace= salvation= saved again.–at any time , any place, at any stage in life.

 

[rinnie]

I already answered your question.

Oh Im sorry Mickey I didn’t understand your answer. I know you said you do not believe in purgatory. Thats why Im confused. Can you possibly explain your answer better. Thanks Mickey.

 

[quasimodo]

re: prugatory … two things

1. don’t think of purgatory as a place - it isn’t
2. take a good honest hard look at yourself , warts and all … be honest and recognize all your impatience, harsh words, harsh thoughts, anger, pouting, and on and on and on. These are not worthy of heaven yet we cling to them stubbornly. They are all the result of sin yet they do not rob us of our relationship with Christ. They do not rob us of grace, but they have no place in heaven. Nothing unclean may enter heaven & these things make you unclean - unsuitable for heaven. Now, unless you suddenly become someone else when you die, you will have to be purified of these things. If heaven were filled with people like us, people still clinging to those things, it would not be heavenly very long.

Purgatory is the process by which we are cleansed of the things which make us unsuitable for heaven. Christ’s blood did not make you a patient person; it did not rid you of unkind thoughts or harsh words; it did not make you free of unrighteous anger; it did not eliminate pouting from your life - did it? (pick your own weaknesses that are unworthy of being taken to heaven with us). Purgatory is the process by which saints are cleansed of these remaining peccadilloes which have no place in heaven. We need to be cleansed of them because we persistently and stubbornly cling to them.

Purgatory: heaven’s bath tub

 

[lkopteros]

I recently found out I might have cancer again and decided I won’t go through the chemo/radiation again. Since, I’ve been pondering the Purgatory thing and became quite upset. I finally went and talked to my priest just yesterday. I had this stupid idea that it was a place of great suffering. Like, if I lived to be say 80 years old and counted up the moments of my life that were impure and the pure moments, if I was lucky I might come out with about 20 years of purity (not consistantly of course) so I got this idea that I might be sentenced to suffer 60 years of cleaning so to speak. So, that frightened me and death didn’t look so fun anymore. But he explained it in such a good way. He said it’s like when you are working toward something that makes you happy, the work and toil seems so much worth it. I got to thinking about teaching CCD and how there were times that were so hard, and how the days leading to First Communion and Confirmation for my classes were so stressful. Then I’d work all the day before and most of the night (sometimes until 5 in the morning) getting the church and parish hall cleaned and decorated but I enjoyed it. Yes, it made me tired and I sacraficed my regular life for those days but knowing the outcome gave me the energy and stamina to do it even when I was sick. He also told me the angels visit Purgatory too. He said I was looking at Purgatory as an extension of hell rather than heaven. Funny how the devil can play with our minds. Yes, there is a Purgatory and please pray daily for those souls. While we’re on earth we pray for the Saints to pray for us but when we’re in Purgatory we must also rely on the living to pray for us, to help us become pure. God Bless.

 

[Zooey]

is Christ’s blood is cleansing then, which would make you clean, then why do you also need to be purged? I do not understand the distinction that you are drawing between two forms of ‘cleansings’. Why would someone need to be cleansed twice…was the first cleansing not good enough?

I live in my grandparents’ home. I remember, as a little girl, when the town water went through, how great it was not to have to heat all that water on top of the stove. You just went upstairs, turned on the tap, and took a bath…and then, of course, you were clean forever and ever, and ever, because that first cleansing was good enough and— :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:
No!! Of course not!!! I still take baths!!! And, so, I should hope, do you (and everyone else!!).
Even though, that first bath in a “real” tub was wonderful. (You even get all your own water…its not “recycled” by the subsequent bathers…)

tiggylou:

I am yet to come across a protestant who believes in purgatory.

Well, now you have!! (Aren’t new experiences:curtsey: interesting??)

tiggylou:

I do not doubt that some would believe in it…hedge there bets, buy an indulgence, but it is not doctrine that is taught on…certainly not at bible colleges in England anway.

No one buys indulgences. They are not for sale.
You need to do some more research, and find out what an indulgence really is. (“Hedging bets” has nothing to do with it, by the bye).The Catholic Answers library is a good place to start.

 

[Zooey]

you say this is rare…can you name someone who has reached it? Maybe one of your saints?

Everyone who is in Heaven has been perfectly purified. That is the very definition of a saint, you see: someone who is in Heaven.
That is what purgatory is: our purification.
You might try comparing what you read here, with John Wesley’s writings on ‘Entire Sanctification’. Pretty much the same concept, but from an Anglican priest this time.
HTH!

 

[Sir_Knight]

So you also believe that purgatory is a fiery cleansing–hmmm–interesting.

In 1 Cor. 3:15 it says “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved)

Further more, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, BUT ONLY (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.