Does purgatory really exist?

[Mickey]

THE RICH MAN MUST BE IN SOME OTHER LOCATION

THE RICH MAN IS SUFFERING MANY SEVERE TORMENTS THIS IS CALLED PURGATION THE CLEANSING OF IMPURITY AND SIN IN PURGATORY.

In another thread, rinnie is trying to prove the false interpretation that the rich man (from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man) is in purgatory.

Very few Roman Catholics agree that this parable points to purgation.

Based on her above comments, rinnie believes that the Latin Catholic doctrine of purgatory is a** “location”** of **“suffering and severe torment”. **

Do other Latin Catholics believe the same as rinnie?

 

[Mickey]

Rinnie also says this about purgatory:

That is what the bible says a temporal place of torment.

Is this correct?

 

[Mickey]

Okay explain this to me Mickey. The thief on the cross has never repented a sin in his life. But he did do a confession.

Are you saying that confession is not repentance? Mama mia!

Or do you think it could be possible, just possible Mickey that Jesus does make us repent our sins

Jesus “makes us” do nothing. We have free will.

 

[rinnie]

Are you saying that confession is not repentance? Mama mia!

Jesus “makes us” do nothing. We have free will.

Yes Mickey I am. We are to confess our sins and then do repentance. We cannot just we are sorry we must repent and sin no more.

Mickey you are correct in one thing. If your teachings of the faith our true we are on opposite sides. In just about everything.

Tell me did any of you ever go to confession and the Priest say you are forgiven, but in turn never give you some type of penance. Either prayers, or something to do to repent. I sure never got out of there without repenting.

 

[Mickey]

Yes Mickey I am. We are to confess our sins and then do repentance. We cannot just we are sorry we must repent and sin no more.

Oh my. Do you have a spiritual father? I strongly suggest you get one. We do an examination of conscience, repent of our sins, and then confess our sins. The priest may give you a penance, but that is not the same as repentance.

Mickey you are correct in one thing. If your teachings of the faith our true we are on opposite sides. In just about everything.

Actually rinnie, you are wrong again. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have more in common than different. There are some important differences, but the Churches were one before the schism.

Tell me did any of you ever go to confession and the Priest say you are forgiven, but in turn never give you some type of penance.

Penance is not repentance. Again I beg you to talk to your priest. You are giving bad information to the protestants who may be here to learn about your faith.

 

[rinnie]

Oh my. Do you have a spiritual father? I strongly suggest you get one. We do an examination of conscience, repent of our sins, and then confess our sins. The priest may give you a penance, but that is not the same as repentance.
Actually rinnie, you are wrong again. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have more in common than different. There are some important differences, but the Churches were one before the schism.
Penance is not repentance. Again I beg you to talk to your priest. You are giving bad information to the protestants who may be here to learn about your faith.

I could do the famous start another thread or I am going to turn you in. But I gotta hear this one. Okay we we pray and ask God for forgiveness that is not repenting. And when we pray and ask God to help us not to sin no more that is not repenting?

Tell me Mickey what is penance if not repentance?

 

[rinnie]

Trust me guys, When you go to confession you are in a state of sin, you confess your sin and the priest goes with you to God to ask for forgiveness. After you confess your sin, then you do your penance. Please go to the Catholic site and read about it.
Doing your repentance is usually in a form of prayer.

 

[Mickey]

Okay we we pray and ask God for forgiveness that is not repenting.

It’s not? Now you are confusing me.

 

[rinnie]

It’s not? Now you are confusing me.

Mickey Please. What is confession it is a sacrament. What is a sacrament It is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace. The sacrament of Penance is what we call confession.

We go to a priest and we confess our sins. It is through that confession that we admit our sins, and ask God to help us to quit sinning. Then the Priest has the authority from God to forgive our sin. But after our sin is forgiven we must repent. You cannot separate confession and the sacrament. Please Mickey you really do need to talk to your Priest. I am not kidding now.

 

[Mickey]

Please Mickey you really do need to talk to your Priest. I am not kidding now.

LOL! I will.

Repentance is an inward change of the mind and heart through heart felt contrition–metanoia.

Penance is a concrete expression of gratitude for the forgiveness of a debt that can never in fact be repaid–as when the priest gives you a penance to do.

The sacrament is often referred to as The sacrament of penance and I will agree that repentance, confession, and penance are closely intertwined.

That is why I deleted my post. But you already copied it and posted it.

I do believe there can be a difference between metanoia and penance.

Now, do you have any further comments regarding purgatory.

 

[Mickey]

That is what the bible says a temporal place of torment.

So the Church has never said that purgatory involves the same kind of time as we experience here on earth, or even time at all. Thus Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, no theological liberal, writes that purgatory may involve “existential” rather than “temporal” duration (cf. Ratzinger’s book Eschatology).
Jimmy Akin

 

[Mickey]

THE RICH MAN MUST BE IN SOME OTHER LOCATION

*The Church teaches that purgatory is the final purification, but not that it occurs in any special region in the afterlife. Just as we do not know how time works in the afterlife—meaning that purgatory may take no time—we also do not know how space works in the afterlife, especially for unembodied souls—meaning purgatory may not take place in any special location.
Jimmy Akin
*

 

[Mickey]

THE RICH MAN IS SUFFERING MANY SEVERE TORMENTS THIS IS CALLED PURGATION THE CLEANSING OF IMPURITY AND SIN IN PURGATORY.

"Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God * and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints.
Jimmy Akin*

 

[mmmcounts]

(T)radition is both oral & written. Both are absolutely authoritative. Written (T)radition AND oral (T)radition testify to purgatory.

Tradition is not absolutely authoritative. It is subordinate to Scripture. All tradition is subject to confirmation by God’s word and must be in agreement with it. The Bible is God-breathed. The source is God. Nothing is greater than or equal to that kind of authority. Tradition is not God-breathed. Along with every other thing in this world, it carries less authority than that Bible and is subordinate to it.

 

[coda]

Yes Mickey I am. We are to confess our sins and then do repentance. We cannot just we are sorry we must repent and sin no more.

Mickey you are correct in one thing. If your teachings of the faith our true we are on opposite sides. In just about everything.

Tell me did any of you ever go to confession and the Priest say you are forgiven, but in turn never give you some type of penance. Either prayers, or something to do to repent. I sure never got out of there without repenting.

Dont we repent BEFORE we confess,then do penance?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Incorrect: Scripture and Sacred Tradition are two ‘parts’ of the Deposit of the Faith. They do not contradict each other and they are not in some kind of competition with one being ‘better’ than another.

I cannot understand why some nonCatholics always try to muddy the waters–especially since this is the Apologetics forum, not the nonCatholic forum.

OTOH, some nonCatholics like Mickey actually keep to the topic at hand, make excellent points, and can manage to disagree without being snide, snippy, or disingenuous. . .I hope that some of our newer posters might emulate Mickey’s behavior which actually involves intelligent dialogue and not closed-minded sniping and attacks.

 

[Mickey]

Incorrect: Scripture and Sacred Tradition are two ‘parts’ of the Deposit of the Faith. They do not contradict each other and they are not in some kind of competition with one being ‘better’ than another.

Amen.

OTOH, some nonCatholics like Mickey actually keep to the topic at hand, make excellent points, and can manage to disagree without being snide, snippy, or disingenuous. . .I hope that some of our newer posters might emulate Mickey’s behavior which actually involves intelligent dialogue and not closed-minded sniping and attacks.

Thank you Tantum. I am deeply humbled.

May God bless you.

 

[rinnie]

Dont we repent BEFORE we confess,then do penance?

to confess a sin or repent a sin is the same thing. To do penance is how we show repentance or the wrong doing of our sins.

When you confess or repent you are admitting your sin and saying you are wrong and sorry. Confession is very different than Penance. Penance is repentance of the sin. it is a self punishment for the sin you did.

 

[quasimodo]

Tradition is not absolutely authoritative. It is subordinate to Scripture. All tradition is subject to confirmation by God’s word and must be in agreement with it. The Bible is God-breathed. The source is God. Nothing is greater than or equal to that kind of authority. Tradition is not God-breathed. Along with every other thing in this world, it carries less authority than that Bible and is subordinate to it.

Scripture is God-breathed and that Breath took the form of Tradition. Scripture grew out of Tradition. Tradition precedes scripture. And the Magisterium of the Church, acting with the authority given by Christ and with the Holy Spirit, separated those many things that claimed to be God-Breathed from those few that actually were.

Scripture was not found whole and complete on a rock with a note from God saying

“I breathed this”
Love,
God

 

[rinnie]

Are you saying that confession is not repentance? Mama mia!

Jesus “makes us” do nothing. We have free will.

And yes Mickey I am saying confession is not repentance. Repentance is Penance. and penance is a self-punishment. So Mama Mia to you too! I am sorry that is what I am taught.