Does Purgatory Really Exist?

[199]

Purgatory
Question from on 01-08-2002: Where in the Bible can I find a reference that there does exist a Purgatory in order to combat non-catholic’s who tell people that there is no mention of purgatory or anything like it in the Bible. Thank You for helping me. Bill Gese Answer by Bill Bilton on 01-09-2002: I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:25,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - temporary state of purgation called a “prison.” There is no exit until we are perfect, and the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification.

Matt. 12:32 - Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This is not heaven or hell.

Luke 16:19-31 - dead rich man is suffering but feels compassion for his brothers. There is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, to atone for their sins. They must be in purgatory.

Phil. 2:10 - every knees bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. There is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Even the propensity to sin is uncleanliness. No purgatory means no salvation for most people.

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. They are in purgatory.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. This is the purgation of purgatory.

1 Cor. 3:15 - though he will be saved, “but only” (houtos-in same manner) through fire. Man is both rewarded and saved by fire.

1 Cor. 3:15 - suffer loss = “zemiothesetai” = root word “zemioo” = also refers to punishment. This means expiation of temporal punishment.

1 Cor. 3:13 - revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him relates to his sins (not just his good works).

1 Cor. 3:17 - proves this purgation deals with punishing sin (destroying God’s temple = bad works = mortal sin = death).

1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and state of mortal sin (v.17).

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - people saved being snatched out of fire. People are already saved if in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if in hell.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent.

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation. Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God’s purification of the righteous at their death.

From the E.W.T.N. website

 

[ferdie]

mikeabele:

We cannot make ourselves clean, by any amount of suffering on our part, to attone for our sins apart from Christ we would have to shed our blood and our blood would have to be pure, spotless like the animals sacrificed in OT times, which is just a picture of Christ’s ultimate sacrifice(Heb 10).

Christ took our sins, He suffered, bled, and died 2000 years ago for every sin past, present, and future anyone will commit. I am covered by His blood by his grace through faith in Christ Jesus, no longer will God remember my sins, but only His Son’s finished work at Calvary. Not everyone is covered by the blood of Christ and trusting in His finished work at Calvary for eternal life. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21 (NABWRNT)

17 So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.18 And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation,19 namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.21 For our sake he made him to be sin who did not know sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him.

Romans 3:20-31 (NABWRNT)

20 since no human being will be justified in his sight by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets,22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.24 **They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,25 whom God set forth as an expiation, ****through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,26 **through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.27 What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. 28 For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.29 Does God belong to Jews alone? Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles,30 for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith.31 Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.

Romans 8:28-39 (NABWRNT)

28 **We know that all things work for good for those who love God, **who are called according to his purpose.29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified.31 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us?32 **He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him?**33 Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us.34 Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.35 What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword?36 As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.”37 No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us.38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers,39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I do not mean to be offensive, but I am just wondering if you can give a direct answer to this:

Help me out with this mikeabele…
Since nothing unclean enters Heaven (Rev 21:27); do you mean to say that you are now completely sinless (Rom 3:23)?

with your own understanding and words and without quoting the bible.

 

[mikeabele]

ferdie:

I do not mean to be offensive, but I am just wondering if you can give a direct answer to this:

Help me out with this mikeabele…
Since nothing unclean enters Heaven (Rev 21:27); do you mean to say that you are now completely sinless (Rom 3:23)?

with your own understanding and words and without quoting the bible.

I don’t know why you would want my words without quoting Scripture, but here goes. Salvation is purely by the grace of God, because of the finished work of Christ. Christ Himself was asked something to the effect of “what must we do to work the works of God”. Christ responding by telling them to believe on Him. We have access to this grace through faith in Christ Jesus. I believe that His blood shed, His death, and Resurrection has paid for my sins completely. There is nothing left for me to pay, not mortal or venial(When I read the Bible it says things like the “wages of sins is death” and “the soul that sinneth shall die”, I get no impression of venial sins, but nonetheless). Because Jesus paid for all my sins 2000 years ago, that includes the ones I committed before becoming a believer, the ones I commit day to day, and the future sins yet to be committed. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. When I close my eyes to this world, I will instantly be in heaven, because I believe God and it has been accounted to me for righteousness. No one can get into heaven without being covered in the blood of Christ Jesus, there is salvation in no other. And no unclean thing will enter heaven, but Christ’s blood washes me white as snow(Rev 1:6 I believe). I hope that covers your question.

God bless

 

[MistyF]

mikeabele:

There is nothing left for me to pay, not mortal or venial(When I read the Bible it says things like the “wages of sins is death” and “the soul that sinneth shall die”, I get no impression of venial sins, but nonetheless). Because Jesus paid for all my sins 2000 years ago, that includes the ones I committed before becoming a believer, the ones I commit day to day, and the future sins yet to be committed. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption.

Do I understand you right? You are saying that no matter what you ever do, you’re going straight to heaven, no matter what? You could go murder a nursery full of infants tomorrow and it’s ok, because your sins don’t matter now?

 

[STIOFAN]

Read about purgatory here in the Messages of Merciful Love, this book has an Imprimaturietro Santoro, Bishop of Termoli.

This explains a parable in the Bible with the guest being found without the nuptial garment.

digilander.libero.it/ma33n/mat/stamp1.htm Sat: May 25th 1968

 

[adstrinity]

mikeabele:

I don’t know why you would want my words without quoting Scripture, but here goes. Salvation is purely by the grace of God, because of the finished work of Christ. Christ Himself was asked something to the effect of “what must we do to work the works of God”. Christ responding by telling them to believe on Him. We have access to this grace through faith in Christ Jesus. I believe that His blood shed, His death, and Resurrection has paid for my sins completely. There is nothing left for me to pay, not mortal or venial(When I read the Bible it says things like the “wages of sins is death” and “the soul that sinneth shall die”, I get no impression of venial sins, but nonetheless). Because Jesus paid for all my sins 2000 years ago, that includes the ones I committed before becoming a believer, the ones I commit day to day, and the future sins yet to be committed. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. When I close my eyes to this world, I will instantly be in heaven, because I believe God and it has been accounted to me for righteousness. No one can get into heaven without being covered in the blood of Christ Jesus, there is salvation in no other. And no unclean thing will enter heaven, but Christ’s blood washes me white as snow(Rev 1:6 I believe). I hope that covers your question.

God bless

Are you talking about when the Rich Man asked Jesus “What must I do to attain Heaven?” & Jesus was all “Follow the Commandments,” and when the RM assured Him this was done, Jesus was all like, “Love God & your neighbour”?

AND, yes, we will be washed, but, if we are not thouroughly cleansed, we will get dirty again. We cannot be merely covered lest we will still sin if we do not under go a change.

 

[Exporter]

mikeabele http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_650622”, true);
Junior Member

You are a nonCatholic. For you to simply read posts here on this thread and to understand , believe and act on true Catholic Theology. All you can do is kibbits around the edges.

I would suppose that you think you “are saved” and as soon as you die you will be in the presence of God The Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. And you never have gone to Confession. Tell me about this. It is written:" Nothing unclean will enter heaven".

 

[mikeabele]

I am saved because I lean wholly on the Lord Jesus Christ. I am “born again” into the family of God, never to be unborn. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, never to be unsealed. When I sin it breaks the fellowship between God and I, but the relationship(child of God) is unchanged. If I do not confess my sins to God, He will chastise me as a disobedient child. If I still do not confess, I will grieve the Holy Spirit. If I still do not confess and remain in my sin, eventually the Lord would end my life. Again I cannot clean myself, I am covered and washed in Christ’s blood to atone wholly for my sins. Therefore once I have my faith in Christ, even if I stumble into sin, the relationship is secure. As a true believer, it would pain me to sin and not confess so as to restore the fellowship and walk with God. My liberty in Christ is not a license to sin, just the opposite. I will not continue to sin so that grace may abound. As soon as I die, I will be around the throne with Christ at the right hand of the Father, to sing and give praise to Him face to face!!!

 

[Pax]

Mike,

You and I have already gone around once on OSAS on another thread. Your persistence is admirable but you cannot get around the many scriptures that deny your belief.

Here are just a few verses to remind you of this fact:

2 Peter 1: 10-11
Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 2: 20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

Romans 11: 20-21
That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, **provided you continue ** in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

You shrug off the importance of our part in responding to God’s grace. Please explain why scripture says the following:
Hebrews 12:14
**Strive for ** peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

You might also want to explain the following passage which directly contradicts your idea that sin merely hurts your level of fellowship with God:
Hebrews 10: 26-31
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Pax]

Mike,

This is the way I explain purgatory based upon material provided by John Martignoni.

Purgatory

2 Sam 12:13-18
David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.” Then Nathan went to his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in and lay all night upon the ground. And the elders of his house stood beside him, to raise him from the ground; but he would not, nor did he eat food with them. On the seventh day the child died."
There is punishment for Sin even after the sin has been forgiven

Revelation 21:27
But nothing unclean shall enter it,
Nothing unclean will enter heaven

Matthew 5:48
You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Because nothing unclean will enter heaven

Hebrews 12:22-23
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
There is a way that the souls of just men are made perfect

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
After death every man’s work will be tested by fire and he will suffer loss even though he has been saved.

Matthew 12:32
And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
This implies forgiveness of sin or its punishment after death in the age to come.

Matthew 18:23-35
“Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents; and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt. When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place. Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you? 'And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Where can you go after death that is like jail until you have paid all your debt? In heaven there is no need forgiveness. In hell there is no forgiveness.

Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
There is judgment after death for what we have done.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Some verses in scripture simply make no sense in a heaven and hell only theology.
James 5:20
let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
If Jesus did everything that needed to be done for the forgiveness of sins then what can this verse mean? Unless there is punishment for sin even after sin is forgiven as in the case of David and Nathan.
1 Peter 4:8
Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins.
Here it is again…something we do that covers a multitude of sins.
Colossians 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,
Once again, something we do that in someway completes the work of Christ. Even though Christ’s redemptive work is sufficient for forgiveness, there is still punishment for a multitude of sins. Love and suffering cover a multitude of sins.

I hope this helps.

 

[Genesis315]

When was OSAS invented? I know Calvinism is a variant of it, but with Calvinism you can’t “get saved,” you’re either saved or not, right? I’m thinking the current version of OSAS is a relatively new doctrine of men invented by one of the American sects. I think it’s most common to Baptist theology, no?

Either way, I would think this theology, almost more than any other, would require a Purgatory, for all those who sinned after they “got saved”, so that they would not be unclean when they automatically enter heaven without judgment.

 

[slinky1882]

Exporter:

Your** q****uestion,“Does Purgatory Really Exist?” has a fatal flaw.**

You use the word “exist”. I understand the difficulty of writting a lucid question about spiritual entities. You may have been in a hurry, so you are excused. But the word “exist” raises a problem

If you are thinking that Purgatory may exist on some far-flung planet or deep under the surface of the earth - you are wrong. There is not a real, measurable and touchable purgatory. Purgatory is a spiritual separation from heaven, hell and the living existance on the earth. Spirits do not occupy space, time or do they have weight. Spirits are nonphysical.

I fear you have committed a common human error.

I see in your Profile that you are not Roman Catholic. So I assume you use a Protestant Bible in your Sola Scriptura journey. We have seveal more books in our Bible: I use the Douay-Rheims Bible ( a translation from the Latin Vulgate.

Jimmy Akin explains purgatory to Protestants better that I can , here is the URL.
cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

Under which definition of “exist” is there a “fatal flaw”??? And although Purgatory is not measureable or touchable, how is it not “real”??? And which problem does “exist” raise??? I am confused by your response as I do not know what definition of “exist” you are using, and I do not want to prematurely respond. Thanks and God Bless.

 

[slinky1882]

mikeabele:

I am saved because I lean wholly on the Lord Jesus Christ. I am “born again” into the family of God, never to be unborn. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, never to be unsealed. When I sin it breaks the fellowship between God and I, but the relationship(child of God) is unchanged. If I do not confess my sins to God, He will chastise me as a disobedient child. If I still do not confess, I will grieve the Holy Spirit. If I still do not confess and remain in my sin, eventually the Lord would end my life. Again I cannot clean myself, I am covered and washed in Christ’s blood to atone wholly for my sins. Therefore once I have my faith in Christ, even if I stumble into sin, the relationship is secure. As a true believer, it would pain me to sin and not confess so as to restore the fellowship and walk with God. My liberty in Christ is not a license to sin, just the opposite. I will not continue to sin so that grace may abound. As soon as I die, I will be around the throne with Christ at the right hand of the Father, to sing and give praise to Him face to face!!!

Hey I have a question related to once saved, always saved (or reborn as you put it above). How is that idea Just or Merciful??? I believe we both could agree that God is Perfect Mercy and Justice. The question was raised on someone living a sinful life after being “born again”. If I am always saved, why should I try to live a moral life??? In a lot of situations, it is easier in the moment to do the immoral. If someone lies, cheats, steals, or kills should there not be consequences for the sin??? Thanks and God Bless.

 

[mikeabele]

2 Timothy 2:1-26 (NABWRNT)

Chapter 2

1 So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.

3 Bear your share of hardship along with me like a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

4 To satisfy the one who recruited him, a soldier does not become entangled in the business affairs of life.

5 Similarly, an athlete cannot receive the winner’s crown except by competing according to the rules.

6 The hardworking farmer ought to have the first share of the crop.

7 Reflect on what I am saying, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, a descendant of David: such is my gospel,

9 for which I am suffering, even to the point of chains, like a criminal. But the word of God is not chained.

10 Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory.

11 This saying is trustworthy:

If we have died with him

we shall also live with him;

12 if we persevere

we shall also reign with him.

But if we deny him

he will deny us.

13 If we are unfaithful

he remains faithful,

for he cannot deny himself.

14 Remind people of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about words. This serves no useful purpose sinceit harms those who listen.

15 Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation.

16 Avoid profane, idle talk, for such people will become more and more godless,

17 and their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,

18 who have deviated from the truth by saying that (the) resurrection has already taken place and are upsetting the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands, bearing this inscription, “The Lord knows those who are his”; and, “Let everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord avoid evil.”

20 In a large household there are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for lofty and others for humble use.

21 If anyone cleanses himself of these things, he will be a vessel for lofty use, dedicated, beneficial to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

22 So turn from youthful desires and pursue righteousness, faith,love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord with purity of heart.

23 Avoid foolish and ignorant debates, for you know that they breed quarrels.

24 A slave of the Lord should not quarrel, but should be gentle with everyone, able to teach, tolerant,

25 correcting opponents with kindness. It may be that God will grant them repentance that leads to knowledge of the truth,

26 and that they may return to their senses out of the devil’s snare, where they are entrapped by him, for his will.

 

[mikeabele]

Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the gloriousd appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Acts 15:7-11

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Hebrews 9:13-28

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Mikeabele;

Your posts (34 and 35) are excellent verses, but it still dosen’t address the question when do we become clean enough to enter Heaven?

Are we spotless now in this life and thereby enter Heaven directly at death? Are we now living lives unable to sin?

If we are spotless now how do we explain; “For all have sinned and do need the glory of God”. (Rom 3:23) or “If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar: and his word is not in us”. (1 John 1:10)?

If we are not now spotless then when are we made spotless? For nothing unclean enters Heaven.

 

[mikeabele]

Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8;15-21

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight 8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Those who have their faith in Christ have been made the righteousness of God in Him, now. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord according to the Scriptures.

 

[ferdie]

mikeabele:

I don’t know why you would want my words without quoting Scripture, but here goes. Salvation is purely by the grace of God, because of the finished work of Christ. Christ Himself was asked something to the effect of “what must we do to work the works of God”. Christ responding by telling them to believe on Him. We have access to this grace through faith in Christ Jesus. I believe that His blood shed, His death, and Resurrection has paid for my sins completely. There is nothing left for me to pay, not mortal or venial(When I read the Bible it says things like the “wages of sins is death” and “the soul that sinneth shall die”, I get no impression of venial sins, but nonetheless). Because Jesus paid for all my sins 2000 years ago, that includes the ones I committed before becoming a believer, the ones I commit day to day, and the future sins yet to be committed. I am sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. When I close my eyes to this world, I will instantly be in heaven, because I believe God and it has been accounted to me for righteousness. No one can get into heaven without being covered in the blood of Christ Jesus, there is salvation in no other. And no unclean thing will enter heaven, but Christ’s blood washes me white as snow(Rev 1:6 I believe). I hope that covers your question.

God bless

But what if you committed a horrible sin ( raped and murdered a 12 yrs old girl) and you died all of the sudden without having able to confess your sins to God, and since you are secured by the Holy Spirit and Jesus already paid for your sins and future sins and your last sin when you died, can you still honestly say that you will still go to heaven?
If this is how I understand your explanation, then there is no point in persevering like St. Paul and the Martyrs of the early church.
We sin almost every day. Granted that we ask God to forgive us our trespasses everyday too. But what about if we die without confessing our last sins?

Stealing is a sin right? If I stole $1M and forgot to repent for it, will I go to hell, yes or no?

If I steal a penny and forgot to repent for it, will I go to hell, yes or no?

 

[mikeabele]

1 Corinthians 2

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.

Galatians 2

17"But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Romans chapters 6-8…not posted because of length.

Heb 12

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. 4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.