Does Purgatory Really Exist?

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I will raise some eyebrows with this, but this is an honest reply.

If suddenly we found out for sure that Purgatory didnt “exist”, then we would have to question if Heaven or Hell Existed. If Heaven didnt exist the Jesus doesnt exist nor even God. If Purgatory doesnt “exist” then all Theology falls like a house of cards.

1st Peter 3:19 tells us that after the crucifixion Jesus preached to the souls in prison. Why were souls in prison? They werent in hell were they? No they were in prison. Why did Jesus go there and preach? These souls could not go to heaven until Jesus did. He told them the good news - they would be going to heaven with Him. So if Jesus went there it must be true that Purgatory does exist in some form.
 
EA MAN,

Did you write?" I don’t want to offend here, but I like to think that Jesus has ‘Scotch-guarded’ us so that because of His righteousness we cannot be ‘stained’ any longer.

I have to go - I will check back later - sorry I didn’t get a chance to cite scripture here."
Since your logic and manner of thinking smacks of Protestantism , I ask you since you must be a Sola Scriptura man, where is the Scotch Guard reference found in your King James Bible? It is NOT in the Vulgate, the Douay - Rheims nor Am. Std. It has to be that you sre doing Private Interpretation. The Church doesnt approve of Private Interpretations.

Your Scotch Guard ide is a crutch for the Protestant belief of “Once Saved - Always Saved, they dont even have to ask for forgiveness.”

Citing Scripture is what Protestants do. They dont have anything else. Catholics have not only a complete Bible but they have Tradition and the magisterium being helped by the Holy Spirit. Dont they Know the Protestant Bibles have thrown out about seven Books of the Bible and that King James had over 170 verses changed to suit himself. DO you know why he made these alterations?
 
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Exporter:
If suddenly we found out for sure that Purgatory didnt “exist”, then we would have to question if Heaven or Hell Existed. If Heaven didnt exist the Jesus doesnt exist nor even God. If Purgatory doesnt “exist” then all Theology falls like a house of cards.
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If Christ did not pay for all my sins, there is need for Purgatory to “scrub” a soul clean. But if however He did not, then the blood of Christ was insufficient to attone for my sins. Then I would have to do something superior(shed my sinless blood, keep the whole law perfectly) to cover what the SPOTLESS blood of the Lamb did not cover. This is an impossibility. The Bible teaches that it is appointed once to die then the judgement. That to be absent from the body(as a believer) is to be present with the Lord. The Bible says that God sees believers living NOW, seated in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If Christ is risen and in heaven, then believers will be too. To believe in Purgatory is to believe that His sacrifice did not cleanse forever those being santified, that Christ Himself is not presently seated at the right hand of the Father, that the work of salvation on our behalf is not complete, that God is a liar(for he’s told us the opposite of what Purgatory is all about).
 
Exporter said:
1st Peter 3:19 tells us that after the crucifixion Jesus preached to the souls in prison. Why were souls in prison? They werent in hell were they? No they were in prison. Why did Jesus go there and preach? These souls could not go to heaven until Jesus did. He told them the good news - they would be going to heaven with Him. So if Jesus went there it must be true that Purgatory does exist in some form.
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1 Peter 3:18-20

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Peter is describing what happened in the days of Noah. It was the spirit of Christ who preached through Noah to the unbelieving generation before the flood. They were not disembodied spirits at that time, but living men and women who rejected the warnings of Noah and were destroyed by the flood. So now they are spirits in the prison of Hades.

cont…sorry I meant to get all this in one post
 
The Lord Jesus tells of the afterlife in Luke 16:

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now** he is comforted, and thou art tormented**.26And beside all this, between** us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence**.

Once this life is over there are only two things that can happen, eternal life with Christ, or eternal death seperated from God. There is no holding place to be purified, for those saved ones are already “ACCEPTED IN THE BELOVED”(Eph. 1:6). To the thief on the Cross(who wasn’t baptized, confirmed, taken Eucharist, gone to confession, etc), Christ says TODAY you will be with me in paradise. Do you want to KNOW when you part this world that you will enter heaven, and not hell. The Bible says you can KNOW that you have eternal life here and now.

1 John 5:10-13
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
 
Mikeabele; you haven’t answered this question in previous posts, so I’ll ask you again…
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mikeabele:
If Christ did not pay for all my sins, there is need for Purgatory to “scrub” a soul clean.
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Christ did pay the price for sin; does that mean you consider yourself sinless now? Are you now unable to sin anymore?
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mikeabele:
But if however He did not, then the blood of Christ was insufficient to attone for my sins.
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Purgatory has nothing to do with forgiveness or atonement; it has to do with purging that which is unclean. Remember, nothing unclean can enter heaven. So either you must be clean now or become clean after you die.
 
There are times when I think Purgatory will translate into having to wait in line for a bathroom at the ballpark…just kidding.
 
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LSK:
There are times when I think Purgatory will translate into having to wait in line for a bathroom at the ballpark…just kidding.
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:rotfl: THAT’S why mom’s say; “why didn’t you go before we left”
 
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EA MAN,

Did you write?" I don’t want to offend here, but I like to think that Jesus has ‘Scotch-guarded’ us so that because of His righteousness we cannot be ‘stained’ any longer.

I have to go - I will check back later - sorry I didn’t get a chance to cite scripture here."
Since your logic and manner of thinking smacks of Protestantism , I ask you since you must be a Sola Scriptura man, where is the Scotch Guard reference found in your King James Bible? It is NOT in the Vulgate, the Douay - Rheims nor Am. Std. It has to be that you sre doing Private Interpretation. The Church doesnt approve of Private Interpretations.
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Yes, you’re right, obviously the Scotch Reference is not in any translation of the Bible. I was simply alluding to the analogy by Wildgraywolf of the tablecloth. (see post #51).
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Exporter:
Citing Scripture is what Protestants do. They dont have anything else. Catholics have not only a complete Bible but they have Tradition and the magisterium being helped by the Holy Spirit. Dont they Know the Protestant Bibles have thrown out about seven Books of the Bible and that King James had over 170 verses changed to suit himself. DO you know why he made these alterations?
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First, I’m not a KJV Only adherent. I think the KJV Only position is very weak. I use the NIV primarily, but other versions as well.
Secondly, the Roman Catholic Church cites scripture all of the time in support of the Catechism and in the Mass. So it’s hardly a Protestant-specific practice.
Third, yes Protestants as a whole are aware that the Bible translations approved by the RCC have more books than the KJV, NIV or other translations. BUT we have 66 books in common.

I have never objected when anyone quotes from 1 or 2 Maccabees. If you want to quote from the Apocrypha, fine, at least I know then where you’re coming from. Why does it offend if I quote from Romans or 1 Corinthians, books that you consider inerrant too?

Peace to you
 
Christ did pay the price for sin; does that mean you consider yourself sinless now? Are you now unable to sin anymore?
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Am I sinless now, no I’m a horrible sinner. The Bible makes no bones about sin, the way God sees sin, one little white lie or jaywalking, for example, is the same as rape, murder, or any number of unmentionable sins. The whole point of the law, is to teach us that we are unable to be righteous in and of ourselves, and unable to be “good enough”, or to keep the whole law(to break one little part is the same as breaking it all). No good works we can do will win us any merit(toward salvation/entrance into heaven) with God. Am I able to still sin after conversion? Yes, I still have a sin nature after becoming a believer. Is salvation and the resultant grace bestowed freely by God on the believe a license to sin? Paul would declare strongly in Romans 6, the answer is NO. When I do sin, the Holy Spirit will convict me of it, and I will confess it to God Himself. I can and am told by Scripture to confess my faults to others, but as far as confessing sin, that is only to God. Only God can forgive sins, the Scripture state.
Purgatory has nothing to do with forgiveness or atonement; it has to do with purging that which is unclean. Remember, nothing unclean can enter heaven. So either you must be clean now or become clean after you die.
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How can you make yourself clean? Where in the Bible is one instructed that this is possible, and how? I have been made clean solely by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I have fellowship with God, solely by Christ’s intercession and mediation. He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and once someone is a believer God sees them already seated in the heavenlies. The author and finisher of my faith is not what I can do or achieve, but the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in payment of every and all my sins. God declares me righeous(clean) because of His grace and my faith. It’s the same salvation Abraham had when “He believed God and God credited Abraham with righteousness”. I am also sealed with the Holy Spirit, never to be unsealed. When I talk to Catholics about Purgatory they say its like heaven, but without God. You see the Holy Spirit is God, so He couldn’t possibly be in a place like purgatory according to Catholics and Protestants.

God bless
 
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Mickey:
Here is an exellent article on purgatory.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0041.html
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1 Corithinians 5:6-9
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Paul says we are either at home in the body and away from God OR we are absent from the body and at home with the Lord. There is no “in between” presented.

Furthermore, I’ll ask the question again: If I am in Christ and He is in me - then how can Christ be in Purgatory if Purgatory is the place where we go BEFORE we can be with God?

The only way around this that I can think of is that Christ is not with us in Purgatory. But He said He is with us always. And that He would never forsake us.
 
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mikeabele:
Am I sinless now, no I’m a horrible sinner. The Bible makes no bones about sin, the way God sees sin, one little white lie or jaywalking, for example, is the same as rape, murder, or any number of unmentionable sins. The whole point of the law, is to teach us that we are unable to be righteous in and of ourselves, and unable to be “good enough”, or to keep the whole law(to break one little part is the same as breaking it all). No good works we can do will win us any merit(toward salvation/entrance into heaven) with God. Am I able to still sin after conversion? Yes, I still have a sin nature after becoming a believer. Is salvation and the resultant grace bestowed freely by God on the believe a license to sin? Paul would declare strongly in Romans 6, the answer is NO. When I do sin, the Holy Spirit will convict me of it, and I will confess it to God Himself. I can and am told by Scripture to confess my faults to others, but as far as confessing sin, that is only to God. Only God can forgive sins, the Scripture state.

How can you make yourself clean? Where in the Bible is one instructed that this is possible, and how? I have been made clean solely by the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I have fellowship with God, solely by Christ’s intercession and mediation. He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and once someone is a believer God sees them already seated in the heavenlies. The author and finisher of my faith is not what I can do or achieve, but the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in payment of every and all my sins. God declares me righeous(clean) because of His grace and my faith. It’s the same salvation Abraham had when “He believed God and God credited Abraham with righteousness”. I am also sealed with the Holy Spirit, never to be unsealed. When I talk to Catholics about Purgatory they say its like heaven, but without God. You see the Holy Spirit is God, so He couldn’t possibly be in a place like purgatory according to Catholics and Protestants.

God bless
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In my understanding of my catholic faith, I have to persevere to the end. I could live a holy life, but if in the end I committed a murder and die without repenting then I am most likely will end up in hell.

Now if I truly repented and die then I have to go some kind of purging to enter heaven, since nothing unclean can enter heaven.

The way I understand you above is that, in both cases, I am still going to heaven, since God already forgave all my sins even if I repented or not. Am I misunderstanding you? Another question, how are we to understand God’s mercy and God’s justice?
 
mikeabele http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_652442”, true);
Junior Member
From your profile I see you said you were adopted by Christ. If you read that verse carefully you’ll see that all humans on earth were also adopted by the Holy Trinity.

The “n/a” doesnt mean much to me. Except you want to leave the door open for any Theology. It may be that some think that if they were baptised at age ten then, they have a one-way street right to heaven no matter that they never recieved the Sacraments, made a valid Confession as an adult just before they died, didnt attend Church or never recieved the Eucharist. Those would say,“Once Saved - Always Saved”. They also have a strange idea that their sins are forgiven even though they did not confess those sins. See 1st John 1:8-10. God will forgive a truely repentant sinner.
 
no mention in the bible of purgatory…except maybe paradise…but, that is understood that that was where believers went before christ’s sacrifice…once the all sufficient lamb was sacrificed…i believe thats when they were able to go into heaven.because until then their sins were only covered not washed…but, you see…we can’t make prayer for the dead…we can’t do anything to change their spiritual status once a person is deceased…when you die you go one of two places…heaven or hell…if you didn’t except christ you go to hell…if you did…then you go to heaven…simple as that…

Ceasar
 
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ceasar:
no mention in the bible of purgatory…except maybe paradise…but, that is understood that that was where believers went before christ’s sacrifice…once the all sufficient lamb was sacrificed…i believe thats when they were able to go into heaven.because until then their sins were only covered not washed…but, you see…we can’t make prayer for the dead…we can’t do anything to change their spiritual status once a person is deceased…when you die you go one of two places…heaven or hell…if you didn’t except christ you go to hell…if you did…then you go to heaven…simple as that…

Ceasar
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:yawn: Same tired old argument “purgatory isn’t mentioned in the Bible.” Trinity isn’t mentioned in the Bible either but I don’t know of any so-called “Bible Christian” who denies the Father, Son and Holy Spirity a/k/a the Holy Trinity.
The link will provide you with information about purgatory, provided you have an open mind and aren’t bound to the man-made doctrine of sola scriptura.
catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp
Purgatory may not be mentioned by name in the Bible, but it is certainly taught there is a place of purification after death.
Christ refers to the sinner who “will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come” (Matt. 12:32), suggesting that one can be freed after death of the consequences of one’s sins. Similarly, Paul tells us that, when we are judged, each man’s work will be tried. And what happens if a righteous man’s work fails the test? “He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15). Now this loss, this penalty, can’t refer to consignment to hell, since no one is saved there; and heaven can’t be meant, since there is no suffering (“fire”) there. The Catholic doctrine of purgatory alone explains this passage.
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Jesus teaches that if one will not be forgiven in this life or after this life, then one will be forgiven in this life or afterwards. Nothing unclean enters heaven, so it can’t be there. Everyone in hell is there for eternity, so it can’t be there either. There has to be a place where sins are forgiven after death and that place is purgatory.
Then there’s the issue of praying for the dead.
Then, of course, there is the Bible’s approval of prayers for the dead: “In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12:43–45). Prayers are not needed by those in heaven, and no one can help those in hell. That means some people must be in a third condition, at least temporarily. This verse so clearly illustrates the existence of purgatory that, at the time of the Reformation, Protestants had to cut the books of the Maccabees out of their Bibles in order to avoid accepting the doctrine.
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The evidence for praying for the dead was so overwhelming that Luther had to take it out of the Bible to make the Bible conform to his beliefs rather than conform his beliefs to the Bible.
The more you examine the facts, the more you see the only true interpretation of the Bible is the one held by the Magisterium of the Church founded by Jesus Christ - the Catholic Church. If you really accept Jesus, you will accept all he taught.
 
Maybe the THIRD time is the charm…

If I am in Christ and He is in me - then how can Christ be in Purgatory if Purgatory is the place where we go BEFORE we can be with God?

thanks and Peace
 
EA_Man said:
1 Corithinians 5:6-9
Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Paul says we are either at home in the body and away from God OR we are absent from the body and at home with the Lord. There is no “in between” presented.

Furthermore, I’ll ask the question again: If I am in Christ and He is in me - then how can Christ be in Purgatory if Purgatory is the place where we go BEFORE we can be with God?

The only way around this that I can think of is that Christ is not with us in Purgatory. But He said He is with us always. And that He would never forsake us.
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If I understand you correctly, you believe Christ is in us just as the pagans believe their gods are in nature? Do you believe that Christ possess you in the same way that demons possessed people in the Bible? I want to make it clear I’m not saying this is what you believe, it’s my understanding of what you believe. Please clarify if I am wrong.
Christ is in us when we are in a state of grace, which means free from mortal sin. Christ is also in us when we receive Him in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. However, Christ is present under the form of bread and wine, so he is only sacramentally present in us as long as the bread and wine remain as such.
If I understand your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5:6-9 you don’t believe in the resurrection of the body since you claim St. Paul is posing an either/or dichotomy. Your interpretation of this passage, as I understand it, is if we are in the body we cannot be with the Lord and the only way to be with the Lord is to be outside the body. You said there is no “in between” presented. If you hold to this dichotomy, you cannot believe in the resurrection of the body, which means Scripture contradicts itself.
You also say Christ isn’t with us in purgatory, which means you believe there are places where Christ isn’t present, which means you don’t believe He is omnipresent, which means you don’t believe Jesus Christ is God. Again, this is my understanding of your post. If I’m wrong, please clarify.
Christ is omnipresent, which means He is everywhere. Christ was in heaven as He died on the cross. He is God which means He is everywhere, even in purgatory. However, we do not hold the beatific vision in purgatory, just as we don’t hold it here on earth. Just because we don’t see Christ doesn’t mean He isn’t present.
How do you explain this passage from 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 if there is no purgatory.
13 Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
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St. Paul speaks of one who suffers loss yet is saved by fire. How can this be if there is no purgatory? We can’t suffer loss and be saved at the same time if there is only heaven and hell.
Christ doesn’t forsake us, but we must be made clean to behold the beatific vision, whether in this world or the next.
 
EA_Man said:
Maybe the THIRD time is the charm…

If I am in Christ and He is in me - then how can Christ be in Purgatory if Purgatory is the place where we go BEFORE we can be with God?

thanks and Peace
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Why wouldn’t Christ be in purgatory? Nothing unclean can enter heaven. For all we know, purgatory happens in the blink of an eye, to cleanse believers of unconfessed actual sin in preparation for paradise! 🙂 Don’t some protestants adhere to a teaching about final purification or something like that? Personally, as a Byzantine Catholic, I like to refer to it as “final theosis”.

Prayers and Blessings!
 
Swiss Guard said:
If I understand you correctly, you believe Christ is in us just as the pagans believe their gods are in nature? Do you believe that Christ possess you in the same way that demons possessed people in the Bible? I want to make it clear I’m not saying this is what you believe, it’s my understanding of what you believe. Please clarify if I am wrong.

Christ is in us when we are in a state of grace, which means free from mortal sin. Christ is also in us when we receive Him in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar. However, Christ is present under the form of bread and wine, so he is only sacramentally present in us as long as the bread and wine remain as such.

If I understand your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 5:6-9 you don’t believe in the resurrection of the body since you claim St. Paul is posing an either/or dichotomy. Your interpretation of this passage, as I understand it, is if we are in the body we cannot be with the Lord and the only way to be with the Lord is to be outside the body. You said there is no “in between” presented. If you hold to this dichotomy, you cannot believe in the resurrection of the body, which means Scripture contradicts itself.

You also say Christ isn’t with us in purgatory, which means you believe there are places where Christ isn’t present, which means you don’t believe He is omnipresent, which means you don’t believe Jesus Christ is God. Again, this is my understanding of your post. If I’m wrong, please clarify.

Christ is omnipresent, which means He is everywhere. Christ was in heaven as He died on the cross. He is God which means He is everywhere, even in purgatory. However, we do not hold the beatific vision in purgatory, just as we don’t hold it here on earth. Just because we don’t see Christ doesn’t mean He isn’t present.

How do you explain this passage from 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 if there is no purgatory.

St. Paul speaks of one who suffers loss yet is saved by fire. How can this be if there is no purgatory? We can’t suffer loss and be saved at the same time if there is only heaven and hell.

Christ doesn’t forsake us, but we must be made clean to behold the beatific vision, whether in this world or the next.
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*“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory” *(Col. 1:27).

*“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death” *(Rom. 8:1-2)
 
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