Does relativism come from Protestantism?

[Black_Jaque]

That’s not a list.

What’s the CCC?

How is this any different than what our church does when it permits believers to either “strict creationism” or “theistic evolution” or any of the countless other things we have the freedom to disagree about?

It is very different. The Church is not saying that both are true. The Church is simply saying that she doesn’t know which is the more truthful explanation for creation. We are obliged to believe the truth. But sometimes the truth is obscured, so the Church can’t make a clear statement…yet.

But when protestants claim that all the Christian denominations are right - that’s relativism. Sure they cling to a few beliefs that they call “essentials” and are not “relative” about those. But in fact that list of essentials is just the list that they can all agree on. As soon as there is something that they disagree on, they dismiss it as relative, or non-essential.

 

[Steadfast]

But Jaque,

Protestants don’t actually claim that.

What they claim is that what matters most is whether you believe Christ has died for your sins, not what the sign says outside the building you worship in.

In a lot of cases some identification with the creeds is expected as well.

Everything else identifies your tradition and most Protestants firmly believe that their tradition is at least closest to perfect and in many cases will tell you with a straight face that in heaven, everyone will be Lutheran (or Presbyterian, or Baptist, or what have you).

But I don’t think this is relativism the way you are using the term, though it may be to some degree since the very word “relativism” admits of relative degree.



Anyhow, I see no difference between this and Catholics who for the sake of charity would boil down what is necessary to be saved to Trinitarian baptism, faith and a firm intention to be holy.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Not at all. I am saying they cant even agree on what those so-called essentials are amoung each other and put them on paper.

So why not list all exercises of papal infallibility ?​

It should be a quite straightforward exercise

Or all the inerrant statements in the Bible ?

The fallacy in asking Protestants for a list of essentials, is AFAICS the same as the fallacy in those two requests: in none of the three cases is the ability to make a list of items necessary, or even appropriate. That does not mean those sets of items are null sets - none of them is null: but itemising the contents of the sets is not the right approach to the relation between the sets, & their contents. A mathematical approach is appropriate for mathematics - it’s no good for theology.

Faith is not reducible to accountancy - apart from anything else, it is always a reaction to more than can be made explicit at any one time. That’s one of the reasons there is a genuine identity in faith between:

• the Apostolic preaching of the Risen Christ
• the much more elaborately-articulated faith of the mainline Churches today

 

[Hellisreal]

So why not list all exercises of papal infallibility ?​

It should be a quite straightforward exercise

Or all the inerrant statements in the Bible

The fallacy in asking Protestants for a list of essentials, is the same as the fallacy in those two requests: in none of the three cases is the ability to make a list of items necessary, or even appropriate. That does not mean that any of those sets of items are null sets - none of them is null: but itemising the contents of the sets is not the right approach to the relation between the sets, & their contents.

Faith is not reducible to accountancy - apart from anything else, it is always a reaction to more than can be made explicit at any one time. That’s one of the reasons there is a genuine identity in faith between:

• the Apostolic preaching of the Risen Christ
• the much more elaborately-articulated faith of the mainline Churches today

Correct me if I am wrong, but the protestant “essentials” seem to boil down to one thing basically.

They all agree (on the extreeme) that Catholics are not even Christian, yet individual Catholics (in spite of being Catholics) can be…Ie: the ones who are rejecting lots of stuff

Whereas, the Catholics believe that most (lets not consider Jw, mormon, ect) if not all are Christian.

Too bad they are SO shure that we Catholics MAY individually be Christians (only if we are disobedient to lots of things)

To me, your argument is a waste of time until Protestants can get a grip on the fact that Catholics ARE christians.

 

[Chancellare]

But it was NOT believed by the Lutherans.

If you want to argue that Protestants are relativists, you might want inform yourself in some elementary fashion as to what they believe. It would make your arguments a little more convincing!

Edwin

I have come across comments protesting that Lutherans are not Protestants. Is this the point?

 

[lak611]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the protestant “essentials” seem to boil down to one thing basically.

They all agree (on the extreeme) that Catholics are not even Christian, yet individual Catholics (in spite of being Catholics) can be…Ie: the ones who are rejecting lots of stuff

Whereas, the Catholics believe that most (lets not consider Jw, mormon, ect) if not all are Christian.

Too bad they are SO shure that we Catholics MAY individually be Christians (only if we are disobedient to lots of things)

To me, your argument is a waste of time until Protestants can get a grip on the fact that Catholics ARE christians.

This may be true of some Protestants, but it is an unfair generalization to say that all Protestants do not consider Catholics to be Christian. I know Lutherans, Methodists and Presbyterians. None of these people who I know have ever said that they did not consider me to be a Christian.

 

[Chancellare]

I have never met a Protestant who believes this nor have I heard of a Protestant Church which teaches it and none of the Reformers did either.

Relativism also exists in Biblical interpretations. Since the advent of Luther’s schism from the Magisterium, the Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Wesleyans, etc, have disagreed on many points like infant Baptism, Real Presence, Trinity etc. In this context, relativism means the truth of one’s faith depends on the preacher who arrived at his own interpretation. By the same token, the persons siitting on the pew must be also thinking: “what about MY interpretation?”.

 

[lak611]

I have come across comments protesting that Lutherans are not Protestants. Is this the point?

I do not think he is saying Lutherans are not Protestants. It seems that he is responding to a post that is an inaccurate representation of Lutheran beliefs.

 

[Steadfast]

Relativism also exists in Biblical interpretations. Since the advent of Luther’s schism from the Magisterium, the Lutherans, Anglicans, Calvinists, Wesleyans, etc, have disagreed on many points like infant Baptism, Real Presence, Trinity etc. In this context, relativism means the truth of one’s faith depends on the preacher who arrived at his own interpretation. By the same token, the persons siitting on the pew must be also thinking: “what about MY interpretation?”.

Disagreements exist among Catholics as to how the Bible is to be interpreted.

 

[Chancellare]

Disagreements exist among Catholics as to how the Bible is to be interpreted.

Please cite specific groups contradicting each other’s teachings on Scriptures within the Catholic magisterium. Name and place please.

 

[Steadfast]

For one thing, freedom is permitted to Catholics in the way they figure or describe the atonement. Some hold to a view more consistently substitutionary theory while other take a view closer to the ransom theory and still others see everything in terms of Christus Victor.

Another example would be in the way Catholics are permitted freedom to understand the first chapters of genesis. Some take a strict 6 day creation view, while others accept “theistic evolution”.

Similarly, with regard to eschatology, Catholics are permitted freedom in how they interpret the events of the end times. Within a specifically Amillennial framework they can be either pessimistic (catastrophic) or optimistic (quasi-postmil).

In moral issues, while the church continues to permit capital punishment there is a movement toward the view which argues that there no longer exist any circumstances in which it can be justly applied with Catholic moral theologians and jurists coming down on both sides.

I don’t think specific examples are necessary, these things should all be evident to any Catholic who knows anything about how the Church does things.

 

[Hellisreal]

This may be true of some Protestants, but it is an unfair generalization to say that all Protestants do not consider Catholics to be Christian. I know Lutherans, Methodists and Presbyterians. None of these people who I know have ever said that they did not consider me to be a Christian.

Again, you need to re read my post and see how your comment only proves it.

And, what individuals in those churches you mention say dont matter. Its what their documents state that matter.

 

[pedja]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the protestant “essentials” seem to boil down to one thing basically.

They all agree (on the extreeme) that Catholics are not even Christian, yet individual Catholics (in spite of being Catholics) can be…Ie: the ones who are rejecting lots of stuff

Whereas, the Catholics believe that most (lets not consider Jw, mormon, ect) if not all are Christian.

Too bad they are SO shure that we Catholics MAY individually be Christians (only if we are disobedient to lots of things)

To me, your argument is a waste of time until Protestants can get a grip on the fact that Catholics ARE christians.

Pure non-sense! I dont know one single Protestant person who does not think Catholics are Christians! What an absurd thing to say! You cant be serious

 

[Chancellare]

For one thing, freedom is permitted to Catholics in the way they figure or describe the atonement. Some hold to a view more consistently substitutionary theory while other take a view closer to the ransom theory and still others see everything in terms of Christus Victor.

Another example would be in the way Catholics are permitted freedom to understand the first chapters of genesis. Some take a strict 6 day creation view, while others accept “theistic evolution”.

Similarly, with regard to eschatology, Catholics are permitted freedom in how they interpret the events of the end times. Within a specifically Amillennial framework they can be either pessimistic (catastrophic) or optimistic (quasi-postmil).

In moral issues, while the church continues to permit capital punishment there is a movement toward the view which argues that there no longer exist any circumstances in which it can be justly applied with Catholic moral theologians and jurists coming down on both sides.

I don’t think specific examples are necessary, these things should all be evident to any Catholic who knows anything about how the Church does things.

You seem to take too much effort to make a mountain out of the moles. So much effort wasted but hardly show any approximation of relativism. PLease look for a better point.

 

[Hellisreal]

Pure non-sense! I dont know one single Protestant person who does not think Catholics are Christians! What an absurd thing to say! You cant be serious

I am darn serious. You guys may, but again, are you not LDS? You would not really be considered a christian in many christian circles. sorry.

 

[lak611]

Again, you need to re read my post and see how your comment only proves it.

And, what individuals in those churches you mention say dont matter. Its what their documents state that matter.

There are also some Catholics who would say that the Catholic Church’s official doctrines don’t matter either. Again, all Catholic individuals cannot be used as an accurate representation of the Church.

 

[Hellisreal]

There are also some Catholics who would say that the Catholic Church’s official doctrines don’t matter either. Again, all Catholic individuals cannot be used as an accurate representation of the Church.

I hope your Lutheran friend is not from the Mosurri Synod. They state the Pope is the Antichrist.

Would that mean we are still Christians then, to them?

 

[pedja]

I am darn serious. You guys may, but again, are you not LDS? You would not really be considered a christian in many christian circles. sorry.

Im not LDS man, Im SDA

 

[Hellisreal]

Im not LDS man, Im SDA

Sorry, I forgot yes you are. But, unfortunately you are still in the same spot.

 

[Steadfast]

You seem to take too much effort to make a mountain out of the moles. So much effort wasted but hardly show any approximation of relativism. PLease look for a better point.

But it’s not my point to demonstrate “relativism”.

I am not the one insisting that this sort of thing is “relativism”.

I consider it liberty.

But I won’t deny others the same kind of liberty I happen to enjoy.

That would be where we appear to differ.