Does 'repetition' = 'vain repitition'?

[cazayoux]

I’ve seen discussions on the boards before with Catholics and non-Catholics discussing repetitious prayer. Non-Catholics in the discussion state that any repetitive prayer is ‘vain’ repetition.

I’m bringing up scripture that I haven’t seen in other discussions.

In my reading I’ve run across a couple of pieces of scripture that might show that repitition doesn’t have to be vain repetition.

Look at Psalm 136. Twenty Six verses repeat the same ending “for his faithful love endures for ever.”
You must agree that the Palms are not displeasing to God.

I was reading different verses that mention the Eucharist and ran across Acts 2:42 about the early Christian community.
“These remained faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of the bread, and to the prayers.”
This seems to indicate that there were a set of prayers to be prayed faithfully.
The verse has a very different connotation than if it had just said “and to pray”.

Would you consider that it’s possible that not all repitition is ‘vain’ repetition?

michel

 

[Della]

You know, a lot of our Protestant brethren who like to throw up the “vain repetition” thing into Catholic faces (usually with regard to the Rosary) are the same people who repeat certain phrases over and over again in their own supposedly extemporaneous prayers. Such as, “Father, God we just want to thank you/ask you…” Or “Alleluia!” Or “Jesus we love you…”, etc. It’s all right for them, they think, because they are not praying, “Hail Mary…” several times over–that’s what they are really objecting to here. It’s been my experience that it’s a matter of their not liking people asking Mary to pray for them or of giving her any praise or acknowledgment more than it’s really about repeating anything.

 

[djrakowski]

Would you consider that it’s possible that not all repitition is ‘vain’ repetition?

Here’s some scriptural support for repetitious prayers:

Rev. 4:1-8 (NAB) - After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, “Come up here and I will show you what must happen afterwards.” At once I was caught up in spirit. A throne was there in heaven, and on the throne sat one whose appearance sparkled like jasper and carnelian. Around the throne was a halo as brilliant as an emerald. Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder. Seven flaming torches burned in front of the throne, which are the seven spirits of God. In front of the throne was something that resembled a sea of glass like crystal. In the center and around the throne, there were four living creatures covered with eyes in front and in back. The first creature resembled a lion, the second was like a calf, the third had a face like that of a human being, and the fourth looked like an eagle in flight. The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. **Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”
**
Repetitive prayer in heaven - how 'bout that!

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

the question should be, What is vain repitition?

Matthew 6

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, **as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. **

8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

lets look at the background,

1 Kings 18:22-40 (King James Version)

22Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal’s prophets are four hundred and fifty men.

23Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:

24And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.

25And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress it first; for ye are many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire under.

26And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

27And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

28And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.

29And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that there was neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

30And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD that was broken down.

31And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

32And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.

33And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid him on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour it on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.

34And he said, Do it the second time. And they did it the second time. And he said, Do it the third time. And they did it the third time.

35And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.

36And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

37Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

38Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

39And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God.

40And Elijah said unto them, Take the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape. And they took them: and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

It is vain because they are not praying to the true God, they are praying to Baal.

And, yes I continued to quote the Lord’s Prayer because it is said often in protestant churches.

 

[brkn1]

It seems to me that if the person praying uses the same prayer, but is truly meaning and thinking about what he is saying as he prays, then it is not vain repetition.
The problem with repetion of the same prayer is that it can become mindless if the person praying just prays out of rote memory. Our brains work that way sometimes, at least it does so for me.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Does ‘repetition’ = ‘vain repitition’?

NO!

 

[KarenNC]

Personally I don’t see a problem with repetition. Yes, it can become meaningless, but also it can help you transcend the actual words.

There are different streams of thought in Protestantism, even within the same denomination. Some are very “high church” liturgically, even more so than some of the Catholic Masses I have attended.

Others will say that almost any prayer (usually the Lord’s Prayer is excepted) that is repetitious (usually in the sense of being prewritten, not just saying the same words over and over) is not from the heart because it is not your own words. I have seen this usually in the more charismatic and evangelical groups that put a premium on the emotional experience as the highest ideal of worship. Things should be novel, spontaneous. Even these groups often have a fairly set order of service or general order in which things are done, as well as norms and expectations (openly expressed or not) on the general forms such “spontaneous” prayer or even speaking in tongues will take. My experience agrees with Della–sometimes these spontaneous prayers are in fact simply repeating things like the name of Jesus over and over

I don’t see that these same folks would necessarily decry the Pledge of Allegiance as “empty of meaning” because we always use the same words (at least since the 50s, but that is another discussion ).

There can be great value in something like chant or using a prayer form one has memorized. It takes the mind off of trying to remember or come up with the words and frees it to enter a higher state and help quickly put one in touch with the presence of divinity in a way that may not otherwise be possible. Such forms are used quite effectively in many religions.

 

[water]

Rev 4:8 - The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

If in Heaven repetition is allowed , I don’t see the reason why it is forbidden on earth.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

It seems to me that if the person praying uses the same prayer, but is truly meaning and thinking about what he is saying as he prays, then it is not vain repetition.
The problem with repetion of the same prayer is that it can become mindless if the person praying just prays out of rote memory. Our brains work that way sometimes, at least it does so for me.

Hi,
I will simply agree with you instead of writing the same thing:thumbsup:

I will go a step further and say sometimes I dont use words at all. Sometimes I just dont know what to say so I just let the Holy Spirit do it for me.

 

[Syele]

repetition= repeating things over and over
vain repetition = repeating things over and not focusing on what you are saying

In other words, If you say the “Our Father” 10 times and you are focusing the entire time on every word, you understand every word and you mean every word, it is repetition but not vain. If you are saying it 10 times and you don’t know what it means, don’t mean it or you are speaking while thinking about what you will make for dinner or how your kid is misbehaving or anything else, it’s vain repetition.

Yep I also agree that praying to another god is in vain reguardless of weather it’s repeated or not.

 

[JoeyWarren]

repetition= repeating things over and over
vain repetition = repeating things over and not focusing on what you are saying
In other words, If you say the “Our Father” 10 times and you are focusing the entire time on every word, you understand every word and you mean every word, it is repetition but not vain. If you are saying it 10 times and you don’t know what it means, don’t mean it or you are speaking while thinking about what you will make for dinner or how your kid is misbehaving or anything else, it’s vain repetition.

Yep I also agree that praying to another god is in vain reguardless of weather it’s repeated or not.

I think a definition of vain is in order.

VAIN
**1. excessively proud of or concerned about one’s own appearance, qualities, achievements, etc.; conceited: a vain dandy.
2. proceeding from or showing personal vanity: vain remarks.**This is what Jesus was addressing. The prayer does not even have to be repitituous to be wrong, the vain part suffices alone.

**3. ineffectual or unsuccessful; futile: a vain effort.
4. without real significance, value, or importance; baseless or worthless: vain pageantry; vain display.
5. Archaic. senseless or foolish. **These definitions fit those prayers that foolish people pray for witout regard to the manner that Jesus gave us in the Our Father.

Some Protestants will say that the Our Father is not an actual prayer to be said often by us, it’s just a guideline. Okay I will buy that. So if it is a guideline then your prayer should have every element of it. I have been part of many prayer sessions where they omit the “Thy will be done” criteria.

To many people have lost the faith because of not truely understanding the Our Father or more commonly called “The Lord’s Prayer”

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

My point is a vain repitition is a prayer addressed over and over again to a false god like Baal. Jesus spoke in a cultural context specifically Elijah vs the prophets of baal. The key word in Jesus saying is “like the heathens do”. If a repitition of prayer is from the heart ( human side ) to the true God, then it is heard and is therefore not vain.

In fact, Paul prayed three times for healing of this torn in the flesh ( 2 Cor 12 ). God answered my …

If you don’t think the vain repitition of the heathen refers to the prophets of baal, then whom do you think he was speaking of? What primary source do you have?

 

[believers]

My point is a vain repitition is a prayer addressed over and over again to a false god like Baal. Jesus spoke in a cultural context specifically Elijah vs the prophets of baal. The key word in Jesus saying is “like the heathens do”. If a repitition of prayer is from the heart ( human side ) to the true God, then it is heard and is therefore not vain.

In fact, Paul prayed three times for healing of this torn in the flesh ( 2 Cor 12 ). God answered my …

If you don’t think the vain repitition of the heathen refers to the prophets of baal, then whom do you think he was speaking of? What primary source do you have?

Have you ever heard a buddhist or muslim pray?

They repeat the same prayers several times.

 

[Nan_S]

Rev 4:8 - The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

If in Heaven repetition is allowed , I don’t see the reason why it is forbidden on earth.

Repetitive prayer is fine when the object is God. We have this passage also:

1 Thess 5:16-18 Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing. In all circumstances give thanks, for this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus.

“Vainity” is about self. Vain repetition focuses attention on yourself. Pious repetition focuses attention on God. The former is sinful, the latter is praiseworthy. That’s the difference.

Nan

 

[djrakowski]

Have you ever heard a buddhist or muslim pray?

They repeat the same prayers several times.

Does that mean that all repetitive prayer is forbidden as ‘vain,’ or that some religious groups make Daniel Marsh’s point in that their prayers are vain repetition in that they’re directed to false gods?

 

[believers]

Does that mean that all repetitive prayer is forbidden as ‘vain,’ or that some religious groups make Daniel Marsh’s point in that their prayers are vain repetition in that they’re directed to false gods?

Mat 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

So we can see by how they pray and not do as they pray.

 

[djrakowski]

Mat 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

So we can see by how they pray and not do as they pray.

OK, so given the examples of repetitious prayer in scripture, particularly from the Psalms and Revelation (which have both been quoted on this thread), do you mean that all repetitious prayer is ‘as the heathens do?’ In other words, was the psalmist, and are the four living creatures around the throne, guilty of vain repetition?

Many folks seem to miss the word ‘vain,’ which is a word with real meaning. Connect the word ‘vain’ in the verse you quoted with ‘as the heathens do,’ and you can see the real meaning of this verse.

 

[believers]

OK, so given the examples of repetitious prayer in scripture, particularly from the Psalms and Revelation (which have both been quoted on this thread), do you mean that all repetitious prayer is ‘as the heathens do?’ In other words, was the psalmist, and are the four living creatures around the throne, guilty of vain repetition?

Many folks seem to miss the word ‘vain,’ which is a word with real meaning. Connect the word ‘vain’ in the verse you quoted with ‘as the heathens do,’ and you can see the real meaning of this verse.

The verse says not to do as the heathens do. It doesn’t say look at the psalms. Why don’t you find out how what the heathens do and not pray that way? If you’d like to test the boundaries of that commandment, that’s your choice.

 

[djrakowski]

The verse says not to do as the heathens do. Why don’t you find out how what the heathens do and not pray that way? If you’d like to test the boundaries of that commandment, that’s your choice.

Instead of hinting around, why don’t you simply answer the question: is all repetitious prayer vain repetition? If your answer is yes, then please explain the repetitious prayers of the Psalms and Revelation.

The prayers of the heathen are vain because they don’t pray to the one true God, not because they’re repetitious. They’re also vain because they think they’ll be heard because of their many words, which I know is not the case of the faithful Catholics on these forums who pray the Rosary and Chaplet of Divine Mercy. So, our repetitious prayers are not vain, and are not like the heathens, and therefore, legitimate. If you believe it not to be the case, then the burden of proof is on you that says all repetitious prayer is vain and as the heathens do. You’ll have a hard time using the Bible to prove that point, though, because it isn’t there.

 

[djrakowski]

The verse says not to do as the heathens do. It doesn’t say look at the psalms.

By the way, what’s wrong with looking at the Psalms? They’re inspired, inerrant scripture, which means that they’re God-breathed, and therefore useful for instruction. If the psalmist prayed repetitively (and he did), then I see no reason why I shouldn’t.