Does 'repetition' = 'vain repitition'?

[djrakowski]

Let’s see if I can summarize the argument believers has made so far:

In Psalm 136, when David repeats the phrase “His mercy endures forever” 26 times, he’s honoring God.

In Matthew 26:36-46, Jesus repeated this prayer three times: “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” This repetition, as David’s, was acceptable to God.

In Revelation 4:8, the four living creatures around the throne pray unceasingly, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” This repetition, like the previous two examples, honors God.

When a Catholic repeats the prayer “For the sake of His Sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world” in the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, while meditating on the meaning of Christ’s suffering on the cross, and the reality that he chose this form of death to atone for my sins so I could join Him in heaven one day, that does not honor God.

Therefore, believers argues this: that when there’s an example of repetitious prayer in the Bible, it always honors God, but when Catholics repeat their prayers, it doesn’t honor God, and is in fact no different than the repetitious prayers of Buddhists and Muslims.

In other words, believers wants us to ignore Biblical examples (from even Christ Himself!) because of his (her?) fallible interpretation of Matthew 6:6-8.

And I thought Catholics were the ones who didn’t know their Bibles?

 

[JoeyWarren]

That’s it in a nutshell.

 

[MariaG]

Therefore, believers argues this: that when there’s an example of repetitious prayer in the Bible, it always honors God, but when Catholics repeat their prayers, it doesn’t honor God, and is in fact no different than the repetitious prayers of Buddhists and Muslims.

In other words, believers wants us to ignore Biblical examples (from even Christ Himself!) because of his (her?) fallible interpretation of Matthew 6:6-8.

And I thought Catholics were the ones who didn’t know their Bibles?

So far believers has actually refused to outright admit that repetitious prayer is in Scripture.

I personally am just looking for the admission that repetitive prayer does not necessarily mean it is vain repetition. I have no hopes in believers admitting that any Catholic prayers are not vain repetition.

But I too find it ironic when those who profess bible alone refuse to acknowledge scripture that clearly shows that psalmists, Paul and the angels all use repetitive prayer in their worship of God. Christ used repetitive prayer. The best I can get is “It is not a heathen prayer” nope not heathen. Yes repetitive. Therefore it is not vain repetition. Therefore repeating prayers does not make it intrinsicly evil.

From Quick Questions in CA Library
As with any prayer, if you think the mere repetition of words, apart from proper interior dispositions, will get you a hearing from God, then you’re being superstitious. Your repetition of the prayer is vain.

It’s not the repetition that’s the problem, though, but the superstitious attitude which can accompany it. Repetition as such isn’t condemned in the Bible.

 

[cazayoux]

Not like the heathen. As far as I know… Jesus said I could pray to God in His name. He didn’t mention anything about Mary. In fact, Mary prayed to God too.

Ahhhh …

You misunderstand what the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer is.
It’s SCRIPTURE!.
Except for the last part where we ask her to pray for us.
We are not asking her to do anything for us except to pray to Jesus FOR us.
Of course we still pray to Jesus.
But how good am I at praying?
I gotta eat, sleep, I get distracted.
How well can somebody pray that is in heaven? PERFECTLY!
Why not ask someone that is there to help me to pray?

We do not pray to Mary like you think.
We do not think she has any power of her own.
All comes from Jesus.

I hope this helps to clear up what that prayer is… scripture and a petition for her to help us pray to Jesus.

michel

 

[believers]

So far believers has actually refused to outright admit that repetitious prayer is in Scripture.

I personally am just looking for the admission that repetitive prayer does not necessarily mean it is vain repetition. I have no hopes in believers admitting that any Catholic prayers are not vain repetition.

But I too find it ironic when those who profess bible alone refuse to acknowledge scripture that clearly shows that psalmists, Paul and the angels all use repetitive prayer in their worship of God. Christ used repetitive prayer. The best I can get is “It is not a heathen prayer” nope not heathen. Yes repetitive. Therefore it is not vain repetition. Therefore repeating prayers does not make it intrinsicly evil.

What you fail to understand is that we are not to USE VAIN REPITITION AS THE HEATHEN… You are completely ignoring this part in the verse.

“Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

To say a prayer once and then say it again at another time is not the same thing as saying a prayer over and over and over and over and over and over and over… that is repitition. Just take a look at the heathens. They do exactly as I described and that’s exactly what you do when you do your rosary.

 

[believers]

Ahhhh …

You misunderstand what the ‘Hail Mary’ prayer is.
It’s SCRIPTURE!.
Except for the last part where we ask her to pray for us.
We are not asking her to do anything for us except to pray to Jesus FOR us.
Of course we still pray to Jesus.
But how good am I at praying?
I gotta eat, sleep, I get distracted.
How well can somebody pray that is in heaven? PERFECTLY!
Why not ask someone that is there to help me to pray?

We do not pray to Mary like you think.
We do not think she has any power of her own.
All comes from Jesus.

I hope this helps to clear up what that prayer is… scripture and a petition for her to help us pray to Jesus.

michel

Thanks… “It’s SCRIPTURE!.Except for the last part” Then it’s UNSCRIPTURAL.

 

[djrakowski]

What you fail to understand is that we are not to USE VAIN REPITITION AS THE HEATHEN… You are completely ignoring this part in the verse.

“Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

To say a prayer once and then say it again at another time is not the same thing as saying a prayer over and over and over and over and over and over and over… that is repitition. Just take a look at the heathens. They do exactly as I described and that’s exactly what you do when you do your rosary.

Does that mean that the psalmist, who prayed “His mercy endures forever” 26 times in Psalm 136, is also guilty of vain repeition, because he prayed the same words more than just a few times? Or, is the point at which it becomes vain somewhere between 26 and the number of prayers said in a typical Rosary or Chaplet of Divine Mercy?

Then you have another problem. The four living creatures around the throne in heaven pray the same words unceasingly (which is quite a few more times than the prayers of the Rosary). Why are their prayers not vain, but our Catholic prayers are vain? You’re just not presenting a very clear or consistent argument, unless the clarity and consistency lie in the willful ignorance of Biblical example and prejudice against Catholic practice.

Thanks… “It’s SCRIPTURE!.Except for the last part” Then it’s UNSCRIPTURAL.

Do you ever pray in words that are not explicity in scripture, and if you do, then are your prayers also unscriptural?

 

[believers]

Does that mean that the psalmist, who prayed “His mercy endures forever” 26 times in Psalm 136, is also guilty of vain repeition, because he prayed the same words more than just a few times? Or, is the point at which it becomes vain somewhere between 26 and the number of prayers said in a typical Rosary or Chaplet of Divine Mercy?
Do you ever pray in words that are not explicity in scripture, and if you do, then are your prayers also unscriptural?

You are completely ignoring the “as the heathen do”. Is the psalmist praying to God or talking to man?

Psa 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

 

[MariaG]

What you fail to understand is that we are not to USE VAIN REPITITION AS THE HEATHEN… You are completely ignoring this part in the verse.

“Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.”

To say a prayer once and then say it again at another time is not the same thing as saying a prayer over and over and over and over and over and over and over… that is repitition. Just take a look at the heathens. They do exactly as I described and that’s exactly what you do when you do your rosary.

So the angels pray as the heathen pray?

The psalmist pray as the heathen pray?

Either there is nothing wrong with repeating a prayer, even over and over since in these two examples it is clear that this is what happens, or God inspired the psalmists to write heathen prayers and has the angels pray to Him as the heathen prays.

Again, I am not specifically addressing the Rosary, but that is all you wish to address and cannot seem to admit that repeating clearly as per scripture, is not the same as vainly repetitious.

 

[MariaG]

You are completely ignoring the “as the heathen do”. Is the psalmist praying to God or talking to man?

Psa 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

So can you admit that if one is repeating a prayer to God that it is not a prayer like the heathen?

 

[djrakowski]

You are completely ignoring the “as the heathen do”. Is the psalmist praying to God or talking to man?

Psa 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

No, I think you are the one ignoring “as the heathen do.” Note that the repetition mentioned in your preferred verse is modified by a few things: 1) vanity, 2) as the heathens do, 3) who think they will be heard for their many words.

To explain:

1. vain is the result of praying to appear pious in front of others, as well as praying to false deities. It could also be the result of repeating prayers without concentrating on their meaning (which is why I don’t pray the Rosary myself - I have a hard time concentrating on the mysteries long enough that my repetition of the prayers becomes vain - but since I can’t read the hearts of others who do pray the Rosary, I’m not prepared to judge their actions and intentions as vain).
2. as the heathens do - they pray to false gods, in contrast to Christians, who pray to the one true God.
3. who think they will be heard for their many words. Catholics don’t think they will be heard because they say a lot of words. In fact, the prayers to which you most strongly object are designed for inward meditation on the events of the life, passion, death and resurrection of Christ.

Note that Jesus doesn’t condemn all repetitious prayers, only those that are 1) vain, 2) as the heathens do, 3) who think they will be heard for their many words. If Jesus were indeed condemning repetitive prayer, then he would be condemning his own angels in heaven (in Revelation 4:8, which you still have not addressed).

And now to your objection to our use of Psalm 136: is it your contention that it is acceptable to praise God through repetitive choruses in songs (which is what a psalm is, after all), and yet, not in prayer? What is a song of praise if not a form of prayer?

I remember a praise song we used frequently in worship at my former evangelical church, and it went something like this:

Give thanks to the Lord, Our God and King,
His love endures forever
For he is good, he is above all things,
His love endures forever
Sing praise, sing praise
sing praise, sing praise
Forever God is faithful, forever God is strong
Forever God is with us, forever, forever, forever
With a mighty hand, and an outstretched arm,
His love endures forever

(after each line in each verse, the phrase “His love endures forever” is repeated, just as it is iin Psalm 136)

Why is this acceptable, and why is Psalm 136 acceptable, but not when we pray our Rosaries and Chaplets of Divine Mercy?

Basically, it should be clear to everyone reading this that ‘believers’ is willing to place primacy on verses of scripture that seem to, on the surface, validate his (her?) view of repetitive prayer, but is unwilling to regard any situations in which repetitive prayer is substantiated. In other words, your own personal interpretation of one verse in exclusion of all others is all that matters.

It should be clear that ‘believers’ isn’t a reliable guide to the true meaning of the scriptures.

 

[believers]

So can you admit that if one is repeating a prayer to God that it is not a prayer like the heathen?

I can’t because you’re not defining the word “repeating”. I’m referring to “reptition”

If you say the Lord’s prayer… then say it again at some other time… then it’s not repititon. Heathens use repitition.

However, if you say the Lord’s prayer and immediately say it again, then immediately say it again, then again… then you’re praying like the heathen.

 

[MariaG]

I can’t because you’re not defining the word “repeating”. I’m referring to “reptition”

If you say the Lord’s prayer… then say it again at some other time… then it’s not repititon. Heathens use repitition.

However, if you say the Lord’s prayer and immediately say it again, then immediately say it again, then again… then you’re praying like the heathen.

So you are saying that God has the angels pray as the heathens do since they repeat constantly the same thing over and over and over?

 

[believers]

So you are saying that God has the angels pray as the heathens do since they repeat constantly the same thing over and over and over?

I don’t see why you’d even compare yourself with the angels. They’re not in need of salvation. God is giving us instructions on how to get to heaven. Angels are already there.

 

[djrakowski]

I don’t see why you’d even compare yourself with the angels. They’re not in need of salvation. God is giving us instructions on how to get to heaven. Angels are already there.

Ah, I think I understand: angels and Jesus can pray repetitiously because they don’t need salvation. But, doesn’t the psalmist need salvation? Yet, he prayed repetitively.

Furthermore, these are all examples of proper prayers. The psalmist prays “His mercy endures forever,” speaking of the one true God. Jesus prays repetitively to the one true God in the garden of Gethsemane. The angels pray “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come” without ceasing. Yet, somehow, these don’t fall under the condemnation against vain repetitious prayer given in Matthew 6:6-8, but our Catholic prayers do. Interesting - as Christians, according to ‘believers,’ we’re not permitted to follow the holy example of Our Lord and his angels who praise him forever in heaven without getting accused of heathen vanity!

You really have to strain the holy scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

 

[believers]

Ah, I think I understand: angels and Jesus can pray repetitiously because they don’t need salvation. But, doesn’t the psalmist need salvation? Yet, he prayed repetitively.

Furthermore, these are all examples of proper prayers. The psalmist prays “His mercy endures forever,” speaking of the one true God. Jesus prays repetitively to the one true God in the garden of Gethsemane. The angels pray “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come” without ceasing. Yet, somehow, these don’t fall under the condemnation against vain repetitious prayer given in Matthew 6:6-8, but our Catholic prayers do. Interesting - as Christians, according to ‘believers,’ we’re not permitted to follow the holy example of Our Lord and his angels who praise him forever in heaven without getting accused of heathen vanity!

You really have to strain the holy scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

The psalmist was writing to man not praying to God. Who should give thanks? We should. Why? for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psa 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

 

[cecilia97]

However, if you say the Lord’s prayer and immediately say it again, then immediately say it again, then again… then you’re praying like the heathen.

So then Jesus prayed like the heathen in the Garden when he said the exact same prayer 3 times?

 

[MariaG]

I don’t see why you’d even compare yourself with the angels. They’re not in need of salvation. God is giving us instructions on how to get to heaven. Angels are already there.

Ah, I think I understand: angels and Jesus can pray repetitiously because they don’t need salvation. But, doesn’t the psalmist need salvation? Yet, he prayed repetitively.

Furthermore, these are all examples of proper prayers. The psalmist prays “His mercy endures forever,” speaking of the one true God. Jesus prays repetitively to the one true God in the garden of Gethsemane. The angels pray “Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come” without ceasing. Yet, somehow, these don’t fall under the condemnation against vain repetitious prayer given in Matthew 6:6-8, but our Catholic prayers do. Interesting - as Christians, according to ‘believers,’ we’re not permitted to follow the holy example of Our Lord and his angels who praise him forever in heaven without getting accused of heathen vanity!

You really have to strain the holy scriptures to make them say what you want them to say.

First, where did I compare myself to angels? I said, that according to your interpretation, angels MUST be praying like heathens since they repeat over and over and over the same thing. But I see you have chosen to add a new rule on who can repeat and who can’t.

But as already pointed out, the psalmist’s, inspired by God, wrote repetitve prayers. Words repeated over and over and over. So why are these prayers not like the heathen?

I really am trying to make sense of your position. Maybe if you analyzed a psalm and told me exactly why these repetitive prayers are not like a heathen I could better understand you? All I see are repeated words that are not vain repetition, but you seem to see something else since you refuse to acknowledge that one can repeat something over and over and it not be vain repetition.

 

[believers]

So then Jesus prayed like the heathen in the Garden when he said the exact same prayer 3 times?

He’s God, you’re not. He obviously wasn’t praying like the heathen. He didn’t have a rosary either.

 

[djrakowski]

The psalmist was writing to man not praying to God. Who should give thanks? We should. Why? for he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever.

Psa 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for [he is] good: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

Psa 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy [endureth] for ever.

And yet, he charged the people listening to him to remember that “his mercy endures forever.” He repeated it 26 times. But, apparently, you don’t believe he intended for his audience to follow his example? Was there something implicit in the understanding of the audience that would’ve led them to do neither as the psalmist did or said himself? What a strange way of reading scripture that seems to be bent on condemning Catholic practices, and ignoring the example of a great Old Testament saint, Jesus, Paul, and the angels in heaven!