Does Romney's support of minimum wage indicate shift in GOP?

[Miss_Felicity]

How much was the increase in the minimum wage? While I support a moderate increase in minimum wage and having it increased annually tied in with inflation I don’t support a radical increase (from $7 to $14) as that can definitely have a negative impact on small businesses. A minimum wage is not a living wage. People should be able to pursue education via trades, college, University to help achieve a living wage.

The key word being “should” but more often than not people who lost jobs during the recession those jobs were never brought back, the jobs that are often discussed in statistics about job creation are much lower wage jobs. There are people working lower wage jobs who already have education, advanced degrees in many cases but there are a lack of jobs on the same level as the ones that were lost so there is a huge gap there. Until we build jobs with a higher wage, were going to have this issue. There are people who were qualified to and did work a job that they could take care of themselves and there families on but those wage jobs are much rarer now.

 

[Corki]

The key word being “should” but more often than not people who lost jobs during the recession those jobs were never brought back, the jobs that are often discussed in statistics about job creation are much lower wage jobs. There are people working lower wage jobs who already have education, advanced degrees in many cases but there are a lack of jobs on the same level as the ones that were lost so there is a huge gap there. Until we build jobs with a higher wage, were going to have this issue. There are people who were qualified to and did work a job that they could take care of themselves and there families on but those wage jobs are much rarer now.

What you are proposing is to value a job based on the qualifications of the employee not the value that that employee brings to the job. That’s suicide for a business owner, especially a small business owner. I have a graduate degree but if I go work at McDonald’s I don’t expect to be paid for my degree or my 20+ years of experience. I expect to get paid for the work I do at McDonalds which is work that is at the level of an unskilled high school grad at best. ** The job i**s worth minimum pay and that’s what should be paid no matter how much unrelated experience or education a particular employee has.

 

[RACJ]

It might indicate a shift toward greater cowardice on the part of some Republicans. Everyone knows that this push is nothing but economic illiterate grandstanding.
Those who believe in higher minimum wages should expend the time and capital that it takes to start a business themselves, and set the example for others. For those already in business, they know that an increase will lead to layoffs, shorter hours, OR it may serve as the fianl nail in the coffin of the enterprise. Rob :banghead:

 

[RACJ]

How do you think people can pursue education etc. without a living wage? I’m not quite sure I understand your point.

I think it’s been called grants, scholarships and loans.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

The key word being “should” but more often than not people who lost jobs during the recession those jobs were never brought back, the jobs that are often discussed in statistics about job creation are much lower wage jobs. There are people working lower wage jobs who already have education, advanced degrees in many cases but there are a lack of jobs on the same level as the ones that were lost so there is a huge gap there. Until we build jobs with a higher wage, were going to have this issue. There are people who were qualified to and did work a job that they could take care of themselves and there families on but those wage jobs are much rarer now.

Corki’s post below explains best how to deal with that situation. People who found themselves trained in fields that lost a lot of jobs and the future looks bleak need to go back to school to study other fields so that they can achieve the same wages that they were once in. Requiring businesses to pay more non-value added costs is a recipe for bankruptcy and will only exacerbate the situation.

What you are proposing is to value a job based on the qualifications of the employee not the value that that employee brings to the job. That’s suicide for a business owner, especially a small business owner. I have a graduate degree but if I go work at McDonald’s I don’t expect to be paid for my degree or my 20+ years of experience. I expect to get paid for the work I do at McDonalds which is work that is at the level of an unskilled high school grad at best. ** The job i**s worth minimum pay and that’s what should be paid no matter how much unrelated experience or education a particular employee has.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

I think it’s been called grants, scholarships and loans.

Which tend to be much harder to find for people have completed a degree or specified training and are changing careers. I was looking into a Masters degree of professional studies and the only “aid” available was loans. To a person who already has a degree of debt that is unresolved or they are very slowly climbing out of, it is a difficult choice to add significant debt on top of it when the job market is far from stable enough to guarantee that the additional degree will bring in a wage much higher than what is currently being made.

What you are proposing is to value a job based on the qualifications of the employee not the value that that employee brings to the job. That’s suicide for a business owner, especially a small business owner. I have a graduate degree but if I go work at McDonald’s I don’t expect to be paid for my degree or my 20+ years of experience. I expect to get paid for the work I do at McDonalds which is work that is at the level of an unskilled high school grad at best. ** The job i**s worth minimum pay and that’s what should be paid no matter how much unrelated experience or education a particular employee has.

Thats actually not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting that there could be some middle ground. I don’t expect my job out of my field to pay for all of my experience and education but I do expect that a person who has some transferrable skills, or education that could benefit the company be paid for it. I am not an unskilled, high school grad and even if I were I have to eat and pay bills.

Corki’s post below explains best how to deal with that situation. People who found themselves trained in fields that lost a lot of jobs and the future looks bleak need to go back to school to study other fields so that they can achieve the same wages that they were once in. Requiring businesses to pay more non-value added costs is a recipe for bankruptcy and will only exacerbate the situation.

As I explained in my earlier post, I am not trying to bankrupt a company, I’m not even trying to make what I made in my field, nor are most people I know who support raising the minimum wage but considering the lack of aid for working professionals especially those for have undergraduate degrees (despite loss of wage) unlike those who do not have an undergrad degree. Practically the money can only go so many places, so its food on the table, clothes on your backs or back to school in many cases. This is how many people end up “stuck” in jobs well below the wage they deserve or are trained for.

I think part of the problem is businesses are not adding higher level jobs to replace the ones that were lost, they have either turned into unpaid/underpaid internships, pay much less or have 1 person doing 2-3 people’s jobs.

 

[gamewell45]

Take out the first rung of the ladder and you will get fewer people able to climb the ladder. In other words, you will create an ever growing underclass more and more dependent on government entitlements for the basics. The wealthy will be fine. What people forget about the minimum wage is that they are not meant to be “living wage” jobs or careers. They are meant as a stepping stone, not a permanent position.

Ishii

Unfortunately for many people minimum wage jobs become a living wage job or career because there are not enough jobs out there. I know a few college grads who, upon graduation were unable to find work in their chosen field and are now working at fast food joints or supermarkets barely making above minimum wage. If it were merely a stepping stone and not a permanent position that would be one thing but it appears that for many of these unfortunate souls they could be stuck in these jobs long term.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Unfortunately for many people minimum wage jobs become a living wage job or career because there are not enough jobs out there. I know a few college grads who, upon graduation were unable to find work in their chosen field and are now working at fast food joints or supermarkets barely making above minimum wage. If it were merely a stepping stone and not a permanent position that would be one thing but it appears that for many of these unfortunate souls they could be stuck in these jobs long term.

This was my point.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Unfortunately for many people minimum wage jobs become a living wage job or career because there are not enough jobs out there. I know a few college grads who, upon graduation were unable to find work in their chosen field and are now working at fast food joints or supermarkets barely making above minimum wage. If it were merely a stepping stone and not a permanent position that would be one thing but it appears that for many of these unfortunate souls they could be stuck in these jobs long term.

Nicely put. Our economic system is most complex, and promotes a good degree of poverty. People do not need luxuries, but they really need to earn enough to support a family. To claw your way upwards requires a certain aggressiveness that many people do not possess. If it was only education and training to achieve financially, that’s one thing, but such a person needs to become a competitor, in addition to having a good degree of intelligence.

LOVE!

 

[Brigid34]

Which tend to be much harder to find for people have completed a degree or specified training and are changing careers. I was looking into a Masters degree of professional studies and the only “aid” available was loans. To a person who already has a degree of debt that is unresolved or they are very slowly climbing out of, it is a difficult choice to add significant debt on top of it when the job market is far from stable enough to guarantee that the additional degree will bring in a wage much higher than what is currently being made,
Thats actually not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting that there could be some middle ground. I don’t expect my job out of my field to pay for all of my experience and education but I do expect that a person who has some transferrable skills, or education that could benefit the company be paid for it. I am not an unskilled, high school grad and even if I were I have to eat and pay bills.
As I explained in my earlier post, I am not trying to bankrupt a company, I’m not even trying to make what I made in my field, nor are most people I know who support raising the minimum wage but considering the lack of aid for working professionals especially those for have undergraduate degrees (despite loss of wage) unlike those who do not have an undergrad degree. Practically the money can only go so many places, so its food on the table, clothes on your backs or back to school in many cases. This is how many people end up “stuck” in jobs well below the wage they deserve or are trained for.
I think part of the problem is businesses are not adding higher level jobs to replace the ones that were lost, they have either turned into unpaid/underpaid internships, pay much less or have 1 person doing 2-3 people’s jobs.

My thoughts exactly!

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Nicely put. Our economic system is most complex, and promotes a good degree of poverty. People do not need luxuries, but they really need to earn enough to support a family. To claw your way upwards requires a certain aggressiveness that many people do not possess. If it was only education and training to achieve financially, that’s one thing, but such a person needs to become a competitor, in addition to having a good degree of intelligence.

LOVE!

I don’t disagree with this assessment but I think its flawed. I think our economic system ends up falsely putting people into two categories, very aggressive go getters and lazy slouches who are expected to always do better, pull yourself up by your bootstraps but clearly is it not that cut and dry. Our country still has not figured out how to make education and opportunity accessible across the board but even for those able to overcome that obstacle the odds continue to become stacked higher and higher making achievement and even the basics of providing a home and necessities next to impossible for certain segments of the population. The differently abled, and certain minority groups come to mind. I think these are the things that are usually at the heart of conversations about wages and earning potential. I think the false dichotomy is dangerous that those who cannot make ends meet, or are not making certain wages are lazy or a bleed on government and business. I think we should be careful throwing out ‘easy’ solutions, just go back to school and do something else. Just be more competitive. I think those ideas are crippling.

 

[RACJ]

Which tend to be much harder to find for people have completed a degree or specified training and are changing careers. I was looking into a Masters degree of professional studies and the only “aid” available was loans. To a person who already has a degree of debt that is unresolved or they are very slowly climbing out of, it is a difficult choice to add significant debt on top of it when the job market is far from stable enough to guarantee that the additional degree will bring in a wage much higher than what is currently being made. Thats actually not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting that there could be some middle ground. I don’t expect my job out of my field to pay for all of my experience and education but I do expect that a person who has some transferrable skills, or education that could benefit the company be paid for it. I am not an unskilled, high school grad and even if I were I have to eat and pay bills.
As I explained in my earlier post, I am not trying to bankrupt a company, I’m not even trying to make what I made in my field, nor are most people I know who support raising the minimum wage but considering the lack of aid for working professionals especially those for have undergraduate degrees (despite loss of wage) unlike those who do not have an undergrad degree. Practically the money can only go so many places, so its food on the table, clothes on your backs or back to school in many cases. This is how many people end up “stuck” in jobs well below the wage they deserve or are trained for.

I think part of the problem is businesses are not adding higher level jobs to replace the ones that were lost, they have either turned into unpaid/underpaid internships, pay much less or have 1 person doing 2-3 people’s jobs.

Much of what you say is undoubtedly true. But the answer is not to ADD mandates to businesses, many of which are on the precipice of collapse. It is to shrink government and free businesses to spend capital as it will best benefit themselves.
What 12 people here want to see will only perpetuate our steep decline. How many years of examples of socialist failure will it take before people realize that we are committing national suicide? Most days I fear that we are at the beginning of the end of freedom, hurtling ourselves and our posterity gleefully toward servitude.

 

[RACJ]

I don’t disagree with this assessment but I think its flawed. I think our economic system ends up falsely putting people into two categories, very aggressive go getters and lazy slouches who are expected to always do better, pull yourself up by your bootstraps but clearly is it not that cut and dry. Our country still has not figured out how to make education and opportunity accessible across the board but even for those able to overcome that obstacle the odds continue to become stacked higher and higher making achievement and even the basics of providing a home and necessities next to impossible for certain segments of the population. The differently abled, and certain minority groups come to mind. I think these are the things that are usually at the heart of conversations about wages and earning potential. I think the false dichotomy is dangerous that those who cannot make ends meet, or are not making certain wages are lazy or a bleed on government and business. I think we should be careful throwing out ‘easy’ solutions, just go back to school and do something else. Just be more competitive. I think those ideas are crippling.

Ronald Reagan quipped, “The more the planners fail, the more the planners plan.” A corollary to that might be, “The planners’ failures make people ever more desperate to support phony politicians who promise thm what governments can never deliver.”
The only answer is to follow the Constitution’s precepts for freedom, but freedom doesn’t sell to a people conditioned to look to government. And the positive effects take many years to consummate.

 

[Miss_Felicity]

Much of what you say is undoubtedly true. But the answer is not to ADD mandates to businesses, many of which are on the precipice of collapse. It is to shrink government and free businesses to spend capital as it will best benefit themselves.
What 12 people here want to see will only perpetuate our steep decline. How many years of examples of socialist failure will it take before people realize that we are committing national suicide? Most days I fear that we are at the beginning of the end of freedom, hurtling gleefully toward finality.

I never said to add mandates to businesses, I said these are issues that we need to be thinking critically about changing. I think “freeing” businesses will only work as far as the business is willing to to think as part of a larger economy and society, and we need to push them to do so, maybe not by mandates but certainly by pressuring them to make right decisions about what they do with their growth. What we don’t need is more Walmart and McDonalds who pay minimum wages, cheat employees out of benefits, overtime etc and use the fact that their employees can only afford to shop with them as a booster to their billions. We don’t need to encourage businesses to do that, and if we tell business to ONLY spend capitol in a way that best benefits themselves thats what we get. I don’t think anybody is talking about socialism here. I think we are talking about wanting business owners to also be responsible members of a society and economy.

 

[RACJ]

I never said to add mandates to businesses, I said these are issues that we need to be thinking critically about changing. I think “freeing” businesses will only work as far as the business is willing to to think as part of a larger economy and society, and we need to push them to do so, maybe not by mandates but certainly by pressuring them to make right decisions about what they do with their growth. What we don’t need is more Walmart and McDonalds who pay minimum wages, cheat employees out of benefits, overtime etc and use the fact that their employees can only afford to shop with them as a booster to their billions. We don’t need to encourage businesses to do that, and if we tell business to ONLY spend capitol in a way that best benefits themselves thats what we get. I don’t think anybody is talking about socialism here. I think we are talking about wanting business owners to also be responsible members of a society and economy.

The first responsibility of any business is to survive. Governments on all levels have become bloated and unwieldy, and businesses are burdened beyond my imagination. They are treading water, hoping for a better day which is not forthcoming until Obama is replaced with a competent Constitutionalist.
Government is in bed with huge contributing corporations today. THe old quid pro quo. This must stop. Capitalist success demands an equal playing field! Rob

 

[Miss_Felicity]

The first responsibility of any business is to survive. Governments on all levels have become bloated and unwieldy, and businesses are burdened beyond my imagination. They are treading water, hoping for a better day which is not forthcoming until Obama is replaced with a competent Constitutionalist.
Government is in bed with huge contributing corporations today. THe old quid pro quo. This must stop. Capitalist success demands an equal playing field! Rob

Yes, and the first responsibility for people is also survival. People are unable to make ends meet in great numbers, I think that is more than worth serious consideration. As I said more than once up thread I’m not anti business, as a matter of fact I think more entrepreneurship is a good thing but not everyone is able to make that happen and in the short term food on the table is the necessity. I think there needs to be serious changes to our economic model. I don’t want to drive businesses to close their doors but businesses are not monolith, and to say they are overburdened is again an over simplification when many businesses have CEO’s making 300-450 times more than the lowest level employees. There will always be a wage gap between business owners and their lowest level employees but I just cannot wrap my brain around CEO’s that make on average of $8,000 an hr having an issue with raising minimum wage to one where a family or worker is not still dependant on the government for healthcare and food stamps.

As an aside, I regret that these threads more times than not venture into bashing the President. If we agree with a sitting President or not we should refrain from name calling, because they are the sitting President of the United States. With that said capitalist success does demand an equal playing field but the playing field is not equal, not even close.

 

[ishii]

Nicely put. Our economic system is most complex, and promotes a good degree of poverty. People do not need luxuries, but they really need to earn enough to support a family. To claw your way upwards requires a certain aggressiveness that many people do not possess. If it was only education and training to achieve financially, that’s one thing, but such a person needs to become a competitor, in addition to having a good degree of intelligence.

LOVE!

It is kind of a “cold cruel world” out there. However, I think the real overachievers with a good degree of intelligence often end up being the ones who start the business or run it - and who then turn around and hire others. I work for a large corporation that employs thousands. Among the workers are people of highly diverse backgrounds, education and intelligence level. Some make a lot of money, some don’t make quite as much, but everyone seems to do okay. I don’t think one needs to “claw ones way upwards” to make a basic living. You do need to work hard, sometimes compromise and be flexible - perhaps do the job you might not really want to do, or move to a different area with more opportunities.

I think when judging the economy we have now, we would do well to consider the plight of our ancestors not too long ago- who came over from abroad and worked very hard to get ahead. If memory serves they didn’t clamor for the government to step in and tell businesses to pay a “living wage.”

I don’t disagree with this assessment but I think its flawed. I think our economic system ends up falsely putting people into two categories, very aggressive go getters and lazy slouches who are expected to always do better, pull yourself up by your bootstraps but clearly is it not that cut and dry. Our country still has not figured out how to make education and opportunity accessible across the board but even for those able to overcome that obstacle the odds continue to become stacked higher and higher making achievement and even the basics of providing a home and necessities next to impossible for certain segments of the population. The differently abled, and certain minority groups come to mind. I think these are the things that are usually at the heart of conversations about wages and earning potential. I think the false dichotomy is dangerous that those who cannot make ends meet, or are not making certain wages are lazy or a bleed on government and business. I think we should be careful throwing out ‘easy’ solutions, just go back to school and do something else. Just be more competitive. I think those ideas are crippling.

Well, I would be careful not to reduce the points some have been making here to a convenient “straw man” to tear down. I have not suggested that it is a simple issue. You bring up minorities. The unemployment rate among blacks, for example, hasn’t improved under Obama - in fact has worsened. Education is so important to getting a job, wouldn’t you agree? In our country every citizen is guaranteed 12 years of education. Yet, today the high school dropout rate of African American males is very high. That is just one factor. Another factor is illegitimacy rates - nearly 70% for blacks. Those factors all contribute to the difficulty of minorities in succeeding economically. I would also add that these poverty indicators - high dropout rate, illegitimacy rate, etc. are worse now after decades of govt aid and involvement than before. I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Yes, and the first responsibility for people is also survival. People are unable to make ends meet in great numbers, I think that is more than worth serious consideration. As I said more than once up thread I’m not anti business, as a matter of fact I think more entrepreneurship is a good thing but not everyone is able to make that happen and in the short term food on the table is the necessity. I think there needs to be serious changes to our economic model. I don’t want to drive businesses to close their doors but businesses are not monolith, and to say they are overburdened is again an over simplification when many businesses have CEO’s making 300-450 times more than the lowest level employees. There will always be a wage gap between business owners and their lowest level employees but I just cannot wrap my brain around CEO’s that make on average of $8,000 an hr having an issue with raising minimum wage to one where a family or worker is not still dependant on the government for healthcare and food stamps.

As an aside, I regret that these threads more times than not venture into bashing the President. If we agree with a sitting President or not we should refrain from name calling, because they are the sitting President of the United States. With that said capitalist success does demand an equal playing field but the playing field is not equal, not even close.

Miss Felicity - a government that can dictate to businesses what wage they must to pay their workers, that can dictate how much money CEO’s can make - is a government that can also dictate to you and me on things we would rather be able to decide ourselves. B careful what you wish for.

The changes that need to be made to our economy are fewer regulations and lower taxes. I think Romney was on to something when he suggested that we need to drill more and explore more. If we had been doing that for the past few years instead of investing in failed green technology and keeping the energy supply low and expensive, we would have much better economic growth than the 0.1% that was reported for the last quarter.

Ishii

 

[SalesianSDB]

Personally, I haven’t had to work until now. At 21 and limited job experience, many many companies rather have someone with more work experience, especially if they have to pay more for me. That’s why, if I were able to, I’d work for under minimum wage because I know that’s the range where I’m employable. So if a company wants to pay me to work for $6 an hour and I WANT to work for $6 an hour, that transaction is illegal. An increase in the minimum wage will guarantee that I won’t get a job.

After all, if they have to pay $11 or $15 an hour, they want someone worth that much.

 

[ishii]

Personally, I haven’t had to work until now. At 21 and limited job experience, many many companies rather have someone with more work experience, especially if they have to pay more for me. That’s why, if I were able to, I’d work for under minimum wage because I know that’s the range where I’m employable. So if a company wants to pay me to work for $6 an hour and I WANT to work for $6 an hour, that transaction is illegal. An increase in the minimum wage will guarantee that I won’t get a job.

After all, if they have to pay $11 or $15 an hour, they want someone worth that much.

Good points. Also, if the minimum wage were raised to say, $15 an hour, then the people making $16 or $17 will say, “we’re only making a little over minimum wage” and will demand more… wage inflation will result. Its not hard to predict what will happen next - businesses will hire less.

Ishii