Does "Saved by Faith Alone" really make sense

[ralphinal]

Acts 11:26

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

I’m glad my faith is historical.

As is mine

 

[Reformed]

As is mine

Can you find the word catholic in your Bible?

 

[chworkman05]

You could be a Pseudo Catholic.

The definition of faith came from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Been on the fence but can not seem to make the leap yet. Still wrestling with LCMS issues.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Can you find the word catholic in your Bible?

Can you find the word Bible in the Bible?

 

[Reformed]

Can you find the word Bible in the Bible?

Sure, on the cover of all Protestant Bibles.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Sure, on the cover of all Protestant Bibles.

I said in the Bible not out. The Scripture does not even claim it is self-interpreting.

Um, this isn’t about Scripture Alone.

This is about faith and faith alone does not make sense. It is faith and works just as St. James said in his Epistles.

 

[chworkman05]

I said in the Bible not out. The Scripture does not even claim it is self-interpreting.

Um, this isn’t about Scripture Alone.

This is about faith and faith alone does not make sense. It is faith and works just as St. James said in his Epistles.

Faith yes, faith and works? No good works come with out faith. so one can not have one without the other, and good works become mortal sin if we think we a doing a good work.

 

[Americanrevert]

Hello,

Faith yes, faith and works? No good works come with out faith. so one can not have one without the other, and good works become mortal sin if we think we a doing a good work.

---

What does that mean? and good works become mortal sin if we think we are doing a good work?

am curious thanks

americanrevert

 

[ralphinal]

Faith yes, faith and works? No good works come with out faith. so one can not have one without the other, and good works become mortal sin if we think we a doing a good work.

Definite Lutheran issue on that one.

Jesus tells us that if we do good for earthly reward, then we get no heavenly reward. If we do good and desire no earthly reward, our reward will be in heaven. He does not say it is a mortal sin to think we are doing good or even to be rewarded for it.

Hebrews 11 has one of the best Faith/Works treatments. Faith is hope in things not seen, then the author goes on to show how faith made people work.

It should be clear that Faith is not an internal, stagnant thing that creates a situation between one person and God. Faith is dynamic. It MUST spill out in the form of works, including teaching others, or else it is not True Faith from God.

Even if some Protestants do not want to admit it, there can be no doubt that the false perception of what Faith is and how it manifests itself into works is a reason that some Protestants see no need to help others. When a baptist tells you that all he has to do is accept Jesus and even if he never lifts a finger to help his fellow man he is saved, there is a problem. Oh, and this cat was a preacher.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Faith yes, faith and works? No good works come with out faith. so one can not have one without the other, and good works become mortal sin if we think we a doing a good work.

Oh no. The Apostle James disagrees with you.

James Chapter 2 verses 19 and following:

[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

What James is saying here is that you cannot separate faith from works, or vice versa. The two are connected. If you claim that we are saved by faith alone, you contradict St. James.

 

[onenow1]

Oh no. The Apostle James disagrees with you.

James Chapter 2 verses 19 and following:

[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

What James is saying here is that you cannot separate faith from works, or vice versa. The two are connected. If you claim that we are saved by faith alone, you contradict St. James.

OneNow1=

I must call it to your attention that the Bible mentions Faith Only,
once and only once, in one verse, and in that verse it says NOT by Faith Only. James 2:24

This ones a gem: Rev 22:12, “Behold, I come quickly! And My reward is with Me, to render to each one according to his works.”

Peace OneNow1

 

[Reformed]

I said in the Bible not out. The Scripture does not even claim it is self-interpreting.

Um, this isn’t about Scripture Alone.

This is about faith and faith alone does not make sense. It is faith and works just as St. James said in his Epistles.

I love the book of James and especially receive James 2 as being significant as Ephesians 2:8-9. Here is something to reflect upon since you have brought up James. Do Mormon Christians and JW worshipers interpert James chapter 2 similar to Roman Catholic Christians or Protesant Christians? On the issue of James chapter 2…your interpertation and understanding appears to be exactly the same as LDS Christians and JW worshippers. All three religious groups claim a form of authority above the Scriptures.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good [2] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

There are two types of faith. One faith is self-generated and from the flesh which even demons possess. It is a dead faith because it is not from God.

The other faith is a livng faith which works to the glory of God, because that faith was a gift of God…to the praise of His glory.

 

[ralphinal]

I love the book of James and especially receive James 2 as being significant as Ephesians 2:8-9. Here is something to reflect upon since you have brought up James. Do Mormon Christians and JW worshipers interpert James chapter 2 similar to Roman Catholic Christians or Protesant Christians? On the issue of James chapter 2…your interpertation and understanding appears to be exactly the same as LDS Christians and JW worshippers. All three religious groups claim a form of authority above the Scriptures.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good [2] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

There are two types of faith. One faith is self-generated and from the flesh which even demons possess. It is a dead faith because it is not from God.

The other faith is a livng faith which works to the glory of God, because that faith was a gift of God…to the praise of His glory.

Careful, that is close to the Tiber…

 

[SIA]

The definition of faith came from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Wrong Manny. The definition of the faith came from Christ crucified.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Wrong Manny. The definition of the faith came from Christ crucified.

Wow. Have you even bothered to what the definition of faith came from?

Some one here ask what faith means in which I respond the Catechism of the Catholic Church gives a summary of what faith is.

The quote I use are as follows:

Para 166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.”

The definition is based on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and the teaching office of the Church.

 

[SIA]

Wow. Have you even bothered to what the definition of faith came from?

Some one here ask what faith means in which I respond the Catechism of the Catholic Church gives a summary of what faith is.

The quote I use are as follows:

Para 166 Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith.

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man. We can lose this priceless gift, as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: “Wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith.” To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith; it must be “working through charity,” abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church.

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith “man freely commits his entire self to God.” For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God’s will. “The righteous shall live by faith.” Living faith “work through charity.”

The definition is based on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and the teaching office of the Church.

I totally understand Manny and I know what the Catechism says about faith. I was Catholic for decades. My response was that faith completely comes from Christ crucified. It is everything. His death and resurrection is the only reason you and I will be saved one day. Faith is one word but its meaning is depth beyond reason. In the darkest moments of my life when I couldn’t even pray because my despair was so so very heavy weighing upon me, I just called out “Jesus”, and he carried me through. When my wife and I lost our daughter, all I could say was “Jesus”. Faith in Jesus Christ is everything. Faith.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ. Are you saying that he mistakingly left something out there?

He didn’t leave anything out. But you’re leaving out what the rest of scripture says about works and salvation. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but the passage does not say we are saved by grace through faith alone. The sentence leaves open the possibility that grace is by faith and also from something else. That something else is the works talked about in James. Good works in response to that grace is what makes faith efficacious.

Another way of saying this is that faith that works in love is saving faith. Faith alone - i.e. apart from any good works - is not saving faith.

[14] What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?
[15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food,
[16] and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit?
[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
[18] But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. (Jas 2:14-26)

What is unclear about this passage? Does it not manifest the clear understanding of the Church that faith - to be effective - must be an active faith that manifests in works. And we who claim the Catholic faith as our own acknowledge the need for works under grace; an active faith working in love.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[ralphinal]

I totally understand Manny and I know what the Catechism says about faith. I was Catholic for decades. My response was that faith completely comes from Christ crucified. It is everything. His death and resurrection is the only reason you and I will be saved one day. Faith is one word but its meaning is depth beyond reason. In the darkest moments of my life when I couldn’t even pray because my despair was so so very heavy weighing upon me, I just called out “Jesus”, and he carried me through. When my wife and I lost our daughter, all I could say was “Jesus”. Faith in Jesus Christ is everything. Faith.

SIA,
We have never talked about our personal lives, you have my prayers. Thank God you had faith.

I love what you are saying, and I agree, but is there a definition of faith that we can use for convention’s sake?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I totally understand Manny and I know what the Catechism says about faith. I was Catholic for decades. My response was that faith completely comes from Christ crucified. It is everything. His death and resurrection is the only reason you and I will be saved one day. Faith is one word but its meaning is depth beyond reason. In the darkest moments of my life when I couldn’t even pray because my despair was so so very heavy weighing upon me, I just called out “Jesus”, and he carried me through. When my wife and I lost our daughter, all I could say was “Jesus”. Faith in Jesus Christ is everything. Faith.

No one is disputing that faith is necessary and that without Jesus there can be no salvation. The dispute is in deciding where our own works fit into the picture. Yes, of course we rely entirely upon Jesus Christ for salvation. But we also have an obligation to respond to that grace by living an active faith. Yes, there are times in our life when all we can do is cry “Jesus” (I have my own personal tragedies as do you) but even this response is an act on our part in response to that marvelous grace. And such acts are not usurping Jesus’s sacrifice. They are a beneficial and needed response that - by it own virtue - gives glory to God and is pleasing to Him.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Mannyfit75]

I totally understand Manny and I know what the Catechism says about faith. I was Catholic for decades. My response was that faith completely comes from Christ crucified. It is everything. His death and resurrection is the only reason you and I will be saved one day. Faith is one word but its meaning is depth beyond reason. In the darkest moments of my life when I couldn’t even pray because my despair was so so very heavy weighing upon me, I just called out “Jesus”, and he carried me through. When my wife and I lost our daughter, all I could say was “Jesus”. Faith in Jesus Christ is everything. Faith.

Our faith rest in Christ, our Lord. God demands more than just “faith alone.”

Um, I do not trust you reliable by claiming yourself to be Ex-Catholic.