Does "Saved by Faith Alone" really make sense

[chworkman05]

QUOTE=ralphinal;4215459]Definite Lutheran issue on that one.

Yes I do have a tendancy to respond with works of Luther. I do admit sometimes they are hard to follow. I Do sometimes question if they make sense. Though where I read these thesis made sens at the time.

Jesus tells us that if we do good for earthly reward, then we get no heavenly reward. If we do good and desire no earthly reward, our reward will be in heaven. He does not say it is a mortal sin to think we are doing good or even to be rewarded for it.

I can not dissagree with this statement. The statment of mortal sin came from a thesis by Luther.

Hebrews 11 has one of the best Faith/Works treatments. Faith is hope in things not seen, then the author goes on to show how faith made people work.

I have read Hebrews 11 several times. It is a great commentary on the old testiment. Also it is a great statment of faith by those in the old testiment. I am not sure where you see works though.

It should be clear that Faith is not an internal, stagnant thing that creates a situation between one person and God. Faith is dynamic. It MUST spill out in the form of works, including teaching others, or else it is not True Faith from God.

I agree faith is not internal stagnant thing and faith does produce good works, But must one think he is doing good works? Then does not the question become what is the modivation for the good works. If it is for our own glory would this not be a sin. If for the glory of God then it would not. Of cource this is not for us to deturmine as only God knows the intent of the heart and soul.

Even if some Protestants do not want to admit it, there can be no doubt that the false perception of what Faith is and how it manifests itself into works is a reason that some Protestants see no need to help others. When a baptist tells you that all he has to do is accept Jesus and even if he never lifts a finger to help his fellow man he is saved, there is a problem. Oh, and this cat was a preacher.

I dissagree we do see a need to help others. This baptist sounds like he is very poor in theology and a good nature to help others.

 

[chworkman05]

Oh no. The Apostle James disagrees with you.

James Chapter 2 verses 19 and following:

[19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

What James is saying here is that you cannot separate faith from works, or vice versa. The two are connected. If you claim that we are saved by faith alone, you contradict St. James.

Yes they are connected. There is a unfortinate problem in the prodosent church and one is they do not like the book of James well. So I was a little ill informed of this book. I will have to do more reading and medition on scripture. Thank you for the enlightenment.

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Can you find the word catholic in your Bible?

Acts 9:31

So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.

In the original Greek, that says something like ekklêsiai kath olês

Or, the Church Catholic.

God Bless,

Love is Patient

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes they are connected. There is a unfortinate problem in the prodosent church and one is they do not like the book of James well. So I was a little ill informed of this book. I will have to do more reading and medition on scripture. Thank you for the enlightenment.

We Catholics view all 72/73 Books of the Bible as inspired Scripture and breath of God.

 

[chworkman05]

We Catholics view all 72/73 Books of the Bible as inspired Scripture and breath of God.

This is a argument I have had in the prodosent church about there
validity. I don’t know who’s briliant Idea it was to remove them. All I know is that it came after the reformation at some point. This is a error that should not of happened. All I hear from protosents on this is that they were not inspired. I also get this in Lutheran circles. My response to those who are Lutheran is then why are they sighted in the book of concordia.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes I do have a tendancy to respond with works of Luther. I do admit sometimes they are hard to follow. I Do sometimes question if they make sense. Though where I read these thesis made sens at the time.

Luther is like all highly intellegent men. At times, he writes to other as smart as he, and at other times he writes only in ways that he understood. The hard part is writting to everyone.

I can not dissagree with this statement. The statment of mortal sin came from a thesis by Luther.

Ok.

I have read Hebrews 11 several times. It is a great commentary on the old testiment. Also it is a great statment of faith by those in the old testiment. I am not sure where you see works though.

It is all in how the story is told. “It was faith that made Abraham offer” “It was faith that made Noah build” Each story of faith ends in a work used by God. It never says “Abraham had faith and that was all that was asked of him.” Clearly, faith spurs us into doing God’s will BECAUSE it is God’s will. NOte that not all of these works were good, some just were works.

I agree faith is not internal stagnant thing and faith does produce good works, But must one think he is doing good works? Then does not the question become what is the modivation for the good works. If it is for our own glory would this not be a sin. If for the glory of God then it would not. Of cource this is not for us to deturmine as only God knows the intent of the heart and soul.

Even works for our glory may not be sinful. AS you said, it is up to God. I do not think you can avoided thinking that you are doing good. You may doubt that it has any efffect, but you might know that you are doing it.

I dissagree we do see a need to help others. This baptist sounds like he is very poor in theology and a good nature to help others.

It is a common thought among some, that we have no command to help the poor, feed the hungry, and all that. As long as me and Jesus got our own thing going.

The one real issue that I have with faith alone is why Luther wanted to get rid of James (and some other NT works). Obviously, he could not reconcile it. It makes me wonder if he knew that faith alone was unbiblical.

 

[mikeledes]

Can you find the word catholic in your Bible?

Neither will you find “Reformed”, “Protestant”, or “Calvinist?”

God Bles,
Michael

 

[Reformed]

Neither will you find “Reformed”, “Protestant”, or “Calvinist?”

God Bles,
Michael

Ahh… but our postings need to be understood in proper context. A Catholic posted that I was not a catholic but a Chrisitian. I simply posted that believers were called Christians; therfore my Faith is historical. Here is the verse to show the roots of saved sinners (invisible church). Notice, that the word catholic is not mentioned.

Acts 11:26

and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught a great many people. And in Antioch the disciples were first called Christians.

 

[Nickkname]

Some non-Catholics believe that faith alone is all that is necessary for salvation. I really cannot see how the Bible even remotely supports such an idea.

Catholics believe that God requires a (response from each man) to the grace He sends. Always and everywhere in the bible God blesses his people and waits for their reaction and cooperation.

Consider the initial gift of faith. God initiates this action but after faith is received, one must respond with 2 works (believe and repent). **Believe **- you must place your faith in Jesus by an act of your will. This is returning back the gift God has given you. If you do not perform this work and you do not place your faith back in God, you cut yourself off from future graces and from salvation. Repent - After the Holy Spirit convicts a believer of his or her sin, the believer must (by an act of their will) repent of their sins. If one refuses to perform this work and repent, one cannot be saved.

In both cases, these acts (believe and repent) are works. They are an action directed by our human will; however, they are works that can only be performed as responses to the grace of the Holy Spirit. Without this grace, these works are not possible. We do not take credit for these works but give all the Glory to God.

In a similar fashion (loving God and our neighbor) is a work that we can only accomplish by the grace of God. Catholics believe that we must respond to and cooperate with God’s grace by performing these good works. Again, we must admit that these good works are beyond our natural limits and give all Glory to God. If one refuses to continue to cooperate with the grace of God, one can lose their salvation.

“Saved by faith along” makes no sense because faith without works is dead and works without love is nothing in God’s eyes.

 

[Reformed]

“Saved by faith along” makes no sense because faith without works is dead and works without love is nothing in God’s eyes.

We are not saved by faith alone. What that means is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

The works that saves a sinner was accomplished by Jesus Christ on our behalf. Christ earned and merited our salvation for us.

 

[mikeledes]

We are not saved by faith alone. What that means is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

The works that saves a sinner was accomplished by Jesus Christ on our behalf. Christ earned and merited our salvation for us.

What is sanctification and why is it necessary?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[adstrinity]

We are not saved by faith alone. What that means is that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.

Knowing what, “alone,” means, it stands to reason, therefore that you are not saved by grace alone through faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. If anything is coupled or in conjunction with anything else, “alone,” cannot come into play.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This is a argument I have had in the prodosent church about there
validity. I don’t know who’s briliant Idea it was to remove them. All I know is that it came after the reformation at some point. This is a error that should not of happened. All I hear from protosents on this is that they were not inspired. I also get this in Lutheran circles. My response to those who are Lutheran is then why are they sighted in the book of concordia.

Protestants have no authority to declare what is inspired Scripture, the Church have that authority alone since God established a Church with authority.

 

[chworkman05]

Protestants have no authority to declare what is inspired Scripture, the Church have that authority alone since God established a Church with authority.

Protestants would agrue that they due thanks to there baptism. Luther teaches all one needs to do to be a priest is to be baptised. This teaching is also one I struggle with. Seems a little light.

 

[chworkman05]

It is all in how the story is told. “It was faith that made Abraham offer” “It was faith that made Noah build” Each story of faith ends in a work used by God. It never says “Abraham had faith and that was all that was asked of him.” Clearly, faith spurs us into doing God’s will BECAUSE it is God’s will. NOte that not all of these works were good, some just were works.

Ok I do see the works as they are laid out.

Even works for our glory may not be sinful. AS you said, it is up to God. I do not think you can avoided thinking that you are doing good. You may doubt that it has any efffect, but you might know that you are doing it.

Correct it is up to God, but would it not be sinful if we try to remove the glory of God doing good works through us and try and claim the glory for our self?

The one real issue that I have with faith alone is why Luther wanted to get rid of James (and some other NT works). Obviously, he could not reconcile it. It makes me wonder if he knew that faith alone was unbiblical.

I sat and read the whole epistle of James. I can see in some areas why Luther would have a issue. This makes me rase a little flage.

 

[a_mirror_dimly]

“Saved by faith along” makes no sense because faith without works is dead and works without love is nothing in God’s eyes.

faith without works is dead, but what does that mean? For someone with a Protestant background, this means not that faith is insufficient for salvation, but rather that acting in accordance with the will of God is the necessary response to an authentic faith. It’s a slight distinction, because in one sense the conclusion appears the same: if one’s life does not bear fruit then one is not saved. However, the difference is in causation: rather than works playing some role is causing you to be saved, both salvation and works are consequences of faith.

 

[ralphinal]

Ok I do see the works as they are laid out.

Honestly, it is a great way it is laid out. So subtle, yet powerful. You see clearly how faith and works are together. It also never once uses the law as a part of it, only doing God’s will.

Correct it is up to God, but would it not be sinful if we try to remove the glory of God doing good works through us and try and claim the glory for our self?

I can see that. I need to think more about it. Atheists can do good with no faith, and I am not sure we would call that good a sin. Aboration maybe

I sat and read the whole epistle of James. I can see in some areas why Luther would have a issue. This makes me rase a little flage.

I know. For all the issues with the Deuterocanonical books, Luther probably had more issues with the NT ones he wanted out, including James (Gonna throw Jimmy in the fire)

 

[Phillipos]

Sola Fide makes sense I guess when you believe that once your saved and marked by the Holy Spirit that all you need to do is just believe in him and you’ll be fine or once saved always saved.

 

[ralphinal]

Sola Fide makes sense I guess when you believe that once your saved and marked by the Holy Spirit that all you need to do is just believe in him and you’ll be fine or once saved always saved.

I would agree except the dude that made it up did not accept OSAS.