Does science prove gods existence?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tadtomczyk
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hee Zen,

you may take issue with my assertion that “evidence for God is philosophical”. You say philosophy is mere speculation. Yet philosophy is unavoidable. Let’s take your stance that only scientific evidence counts. This is in fact a philosophical stance since, while it may be based on your personal view of science, it cannot be proven by science. Thus, if philosophy is mere speculation then your stance that only scientific evidence counts is mere speculation, too.
 
Hee Zen,

you may take issue with my assertion that “evidence for God is philosophical”. You say philosophy is mere speculation. Yet philosophy is unavoidable. Let’s take your stance that only scientific evidence counts. This is in fact a philosophical stance since, while it may be based on your personal view of science, it cannot be proven by science. Thus, if philosophy is mere speculation then your stance that only scientific evidence counts is mere speculation, too.
The value of the scientific method has been proven by history.
We use it, we learn things, we invent things, we live better.
Ta-da it works.
 
The value of the scientific method has been proven by history.
We use it, we learn things, we invent things, we live better.
Ta-da it works.
We also learn things, invent things, and live worse (wars, abortion, pollution, drug overdoses… etc etc…all these things require science.)

How can that be, if the scientific method is the supreme way of knowing?
 
We also learn things, invent things, and live worse (wars, abortion, pollution, drug overdoses… etc etc…all these things require science.)

How can that be, if the scientific method is the supreme way of knowing?
You only further prove it’s ability to uncover knowledge, how we use that knowledge is another matter entirely.
 
You asked how we can know the scientific method works, so no it is not beside the point.
It is beside the point, given what I stated in the post that you originally replied to. Perhaps you want to re-read again.
 
You only further prove it’s ability to uncover knowledge, how we use that knowledge is another matter entirely.
Yes but the context of the thread is proving God’s existence.
God is a person. While science is a proper use of reason, it is not the ultimate way of knowing a person.
 
Hee Zen,

you may take issue with my assertion that “evidence for God is philosophical”. You say philosophy is mere speculation. Yet philosophy is unavoidable. Let’s take your stance that only scientific evidence counts. This is in fact a philosophical stance since, while it may be based on your personal view of science, it cannot be proven by science. Thus, if philosophy is mere speculation then your stance that only scientific evidence counts is mere speculation, too.
Hi, Al!

Thank you very much for your replies. I will address them all, but it will take time, since you said quite an “earful” :). First, I did not actually say that only “scientific” evidence counts, because I disagree with such a blanket proposition. Depending on the subject of the proposition, we need an epistemological method to find out if that proposition is true or not. I subdivide the realm of propositions into several categories:
  1. propositions about the objective aspect of external reality
  2. propositions about the subjective aspect of external reality
  3. propositions within an axiomatic system
  4. propositions about the past
  5. philosophical propositions (namely metaphysical and epistemological ones)
  6. other propositions (for example fairy tales)
    The so-called “scientific” method only applies to the first group. As a matter of fact, the method applied there has been “co-opted” by science for one reason only: it allows one to decide the veracity of the propositions about the objective reality in an objective manner. The method itself is obviously known to you:
  7. make observations about the objective reality
  8. set up a tentative explanation (null-hypothesis) about the phenomenon
  9. attempt to verify the hypothesis by conducting experiments
  10. if the verification is unsuccessful, modify or discard the hypothesis
  11. if the verification was successful, tentatively accept the hypothesis, until some other experiment contradicts it.
    Let’s not worry about the propositions 2), 3), 4) an 6) for the time being, unless you wish to delve into them.
**Metaphysical **propositions can be (and sometimes are) speculative in nature. If they are about the objectively existing reality, then they are subject to the “scientific” verification process.

Epistemological propositions are whole different “ballgame”. They are not about “what exists”, rather, “how do we know it”? Epistemological propositions are not subject to any kind of “verification” or substantiation process, except for one: “do they work”? The proof of the pudding is that it is edible. So there is absolutely NO contradiction in the methodological naturalism. The philosophical naturalism is just a simple extension. As long as there is no convincing evidence of anything “beyond” the physical realm, there is no need to look any further. But, as soon as some actual evidence pops up, we shall be happy to re-evaluate our stance.

I do not “dogmatically” discard any suggested epistemological method “out of hand”. The only “meta-epistemological” criterion that I am looking for is: “does it work, even if one does not accept the suggested result a-priori”? Is it objective? Is it repeatable? Does it allow to separate the true and the false statements? That is all which is needed for any epistemological method.

What you said: “evidence for God is philosophical” lacks detail. What is the evidence? Obviously I am familiar with Aquinas and his five ways. They don’t work. Is there anything better?
 
Science cannot prove the existence of God.

It is all about Faith.
No, Nelka. It is not all about Faith. That is a heresy rejected by the CC called Fideism.

We are to use our Faith AND our Reason to apprehend God.
 
Help! I’m on the VERGE of losing my faith. I try to look for evidence through philosphy and science but only come up with more questions! The string theory for example, seems like it replaces god! Is it logical to believe god exists!? I’ve looked up EVERY SINGLE PAGE! Please help me!
To answer your question: Science does not prove God’s existence. But then again it’s the wrong tool to be using to prove God’s existence. Science deals with natural explanations for questions we have about the world.

Since God is supernatural, science is inadequate to the task. It’s the wrong tool to use.

It’s like asking, “Can poetry fix the brakes in my car?”

That being said, science doesn’t disprove God’s existence. In fact, science, the natural world, affirms God’s existence.
 
**Question 1) **what is that “freedom of thought” that you consider inexplicable under the naturalistic worldview?

For example, the freedom of asserting that “naturalism is true”. This is not possible under naturalism as I show in my article:

“Naturalism is true”: A self-contradictory statement
Well, in this case I overruled my own principle of NOT reading linked material. After all it was written by you, and it would be impractical to demand that you write again what you have written already. So, let’s talk about it.

The number one problem is the title itself: “Naturalism is true”: A self-contradictory statement. If you had written: “a **false **statement”, or “an **incorrect **statement”, it would not be fine. But “self-contradictory”? A self-contradictory statement would be “This proposition is false” - which does not evaluate to either true or false, precisely since it is self-contradictory. There is nothing logically incorrect about asserting that “naturalism is true”. It may be false, but that would be a different assertion.

So my first objection is that you used an incorrect title for your article. Care to comment on this?

Now your first sentence is: “Naturalism is the view that nothing exists beyond the natural world and that only physical laws operate in our world, i.e. that also humans are purely physical beings.”.

Again, simply incorrect. Naturalism says that all the ontologically existing objects are physical in nature. It does not deny the existence of immaterial “entities” like attributes, relationships and activities. Also it does not deny the existence of “concepts” and “abstractions”, it only denies the ontological, independent existence of the so-called “abstract objects”. It does not deny the existence of subjective categories like “heavy” or “beautiful”. It does not deny the existence of “emotions” either. However it denies the independent, ontological existence of these categories. But none of these immaterial entities are “active”. They themselves cannot influence the physical universe - though ACTING on them certainly can.

So the second problem is that you fight against a “ghost-enemy”. Your comments?

The next problem is this proposition: “Yet under naturalism every thought, just like everything else, is physically determined.” That is not something that naturalism asserts. The immaterial aspects of the physical reality are not governed by physical laws of the ontological objects. You can imagine that you fly faster than light, even if the electro-chemical interactions within your brain do not move faster than light. You can imagine snapping your fingers and performing true magic. The rules governing your thoughts are not restricted by the physical laws of the electro-chemical interactions of your brain - and no naturalist will say otherwise. Just like the programs running on a computer are independent of the physical laws of electricity - even thought the motion of the electrons are restricted by them.

Your major error is that you confuse the physical activities and their conceptual referents.

So if you wish to assert that naturalism is “false” (not self-contradictory!!!) then you need to do much better. As a first step you should demonstrate the existence of immaterial, YET physically active “entities” which can influence the physical objects. Of course this would place those entities into the realm of the physical world, and as such they would be subject to the “scientific” investigation. You need to develop some epistemological method to separate the “wheat” from the “chaff” pertaining those “immaterial entities”. Don’t forget that those “immaterial” entities include not only gods but also angels, demons, ghosts, and who knows what else?

Best of luck to you. Looking forward to continue our conversation. Later on I will comment of the second part of your reply.
 
Yes but the context of the thread is proving God’s existence.
God is a person. While science is a proper use of reason, it is not the ultimate way of knowing a person.
Noone is saying that science is either a perfect or ultimate method of finding truth.
But it IS the best we have available.

Can you provide a better one?
 
Noone is saying that science is either a perfect or ultimate method of finding truth.
But it IS the best we have available.

Can you provide a better one?
The problem here is that your claim that science is the best method for finding truth depends upon another premise - that truth is merely what works. How was that decided? Not scientifically, because that is both a metaphysical and epistemological claim about the nature of truth. You can’t use science to establish epistemological or metaphysical premises like “truth is what works,” therefore science isn’t a method of “finding truth,” though it may be a method of finding what works. But that is not the same as what “truth” is, unless you want to prove that, but again that can’t be done scientifically, it must be done using epistemology or metaphysics, which both trump science as methods for determining what truth is and how we can be certain about it.

Now you may simply want to insist that truth, by definition, is “what works,” but, it seems to me, that cannot be done without some serious question-begging on your part.
 
Noone is saying that science is either a perfect or ultimate method of finding truth.
But it IS the best we have available.

Can you provide a better one?
Prayer, aka communication with God.
If you limit truth to only that which you can reason, the problem becomes evident. If you admit of truth outside yourself, you have to look at a relationship.

If you want to know the truth about a person, do you consult a manual, or do you engage in communication?
 
Now your first sentence is: “Naturalism is the view that nothing exists beyond the natural world and that only physical laws operate in our world, i.e. that also humans are purely physical beings.”.

Again, simply incorrect. Naturalism says that all the ontologically existing objects are physical in nature. It does not deny the existence of immaterial “entities” like attributes, relationships and activities. Also it does not deny the existence of “concepts” and “abstractions”, it only denies the ontological, independent existence of the so-called “abstract objects”. It does not deny the existence of subjective categories like “heavy” or “beautiful”. It does not deny the existence of “emotions” either. However it denies the independent, ontological existence of these categories. But none of these immaterial entities are “active”. They themselves cannot influence the physical universe - though ACTING on them certainly can.

So the second problem is that you fight against a “ghost-enemy”. Your comments?
There are a number of issues with this depiction of what Al does, unfortunately, for you, these are major ones.

One problem is that you are begging the question by defining “ontological” to be identical to “natural,” at the start. You claim naturalism states “all ontologically existing things” are “physical in nature,” - which is fine, as a claim - but to establish it, as a claim, you simply go on to state dogmatically that abstract objects do not exist “ontologically,” but concede they “exist” in some manner. Well, that manner of existing (ontologically) as you describe it is precisely the same claim as stating they do not exist physically, but do exist in some form or other. Which is simply to assume “ontological” means “physical,” thus begging the conclusion.

So you concede abstract entities do “exist” they just don’t exist physically. Uh, huh. And that shows what, exactly?

Ontological does not mean “physical” but to use it as if it does is not proving anything. And to use a begged claim as a premise without substantiation does not serve to bolster an argument for making a case that ontological does mean physical because that is precisely what you are supposed to be demonstrating in the argument where you have used the conclusion as the main premise. Question begging, pure and simple.

This is quite apparent where you concede abstract objects do indeed “exist,” but don’t really exist ontologically. Which means, I suppose, nothing more than they don’t exist physically. You don’t demonstrate that merely by assuming it to be true.

Now, you do make another claim that purports to support the above and makes the tautological use of “exist” a tad less obvious. You state that immaterial entities are not “active.” Here, again, the distinction is elusive. Are forces material? Even at a very basic level, it is difficult to think of gravity, for example, as a physical object. It is not merely an abstraction, but it is not a physical entity in any strict sense, either, although it does affect physical entities. Electromagnetism or magnetism are, likewise, forces and do not have “ontological” status in the way you suppose. They are certainly “active” and effect change in the natural order. It is not clear that these forces are, indeed, physical in nature, although it might be true to say they are embedded in the natural order.

Another difficulty is that the latent potentiality of physical entities does not “exist” in any physical sense, but that potentiality does, in fact, determine a great deal about what does and does not come about in the physical order.

The piano in front of me contains within its realm of possibility the capacity to create certain sounds. Those “sounds” exist immaterially at the moment as the potentiality or “limitations” of the piano’s capacity. Those limitations are formal ones, not material. Yet, I would insist that they are just as “ontologically” real as the piano itself. In fact, they are the limitations that make the piano what it is, ontologically speaking. Ergo, the formal structure of the piano exists and has ontological priority in such a way as to be necessary to make the piano what it is, physically speaking. The piano would not exist “physically” had the formal possibilities for the piano not existed in an ontologically “prior” way.

Ed Feser makes the point that “A cause is intelligible as a cause only insofar as it is intelligible in itself.” I suspect this comes pretty close to Al’s point in his paper that you are attempting to show to be misconceived.

To claim everything “ontologically” reduces to “naturalism” is to propose that things do not, ultimately, need to be intelligible or explicable and, therefore, need not be “true” in any sense of the word. The word “true,” if it means anything, must mean “understood, meaningful and known for certain by an intelligence.” If things are not ultimately intelligible in themselves, there is no sense in which they can ultimately be “true.” To be “true” supposes that an intelligent agent can apprehend and determine with certainty the significance and meaning of an ontological entity - its “isness,” - what it is - so to speak.

Continued…
 
… from previous.

However, if all reduces to naturalism, then the inexplicable “brute fact” of existence is prior to intelligibility and the “truth” of things vanishes. Naturalism, aka eliminative materialism, erodes the very foundation upon which it claims to propose the determinable “truth” of things by claiming, at ground, that the inexplicable, rather than the intelligible, is what undergirds reality. You can’t have it both ways.

Reality either is intelligible or it simply is in such a way as to, ultimately, defy intelligibility. Your claim is that intelligibility depends upon brute natural existence, but if brute natural existence is not, at ground, intelligible then “truth” is meaningless. Thus, a full blown naturalism, as Al claims is self-defeating because it eliminates truth for the sake of brute fact. The only way naturalism could be ultimately compatible with truth is if intelligibility is grounded in reality itself, but that would mean naturalism of the sort espoused by eliminative materialists would simply be false. Intelligence is not merely an emergent property, but, rather, grounded in existence itself, and, therefore, the ultimate “truth” of things (in the sense of meaningfully and certainly known) can be determined.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top