Does science prove gods existence?

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You say that you are die-hard evolutionist (which is very commendable) but which kind of evolutionist are you? The one who professes a “directed” evolution, the one who says that there is “micro-evolution” (comprised of small random changes) but who denies “macro-evolution”, or a true evolutionist who understands that there is only evolution (and not just biological, but also socio-evolution and techno evolution) undirected, random processes, which are sometimes detrimental, sometimes beneficial? Would be nice to know, if you are willing to give the details.
I had said that I am a die-hard evolutionist except when it comes to the human soul which, as an immaterial entity, cannot arise by a material process like evolution but must be a special creation by God.

Did I give any other qualifications? No? Well, there you have your answer.
 
Demanding evidence is wonderful. What is the evidence for an “immortal soul”? What is the evidence for the “supernatural”? Walking is not a material object either, but one does not need to assume a supernatural entity. There are zillions of immaterial entities, attributes, relationships and actions, but all of them are based upon the existence of ontological objects - and none of them require a supernatural creator.
Philosophical evidence. You will say of course that only scientific evidence counts. This has been answered incisively by Ed Feser in his article, which is worth reading in its entirety, Reading Rosenberg, Part II:

Rosenberg’s argument, then, is essentially this:
  1. The predictive power and technological applications of physics are unparalleled by those of any other purported source of knowledge.
  2. Therefore what physics reveals to us is all that is real.
How bad is this argument? About as bad as this one:
  1. Metal detectors have had far greater success in finding coins and other metallic objects in more places than any other method has.
  2. Therefore what metal detectors reveal to us (coins and other metallic objects) is all that is real.
Metal detectors are keyed to those aspects of the natural world susceptible of detection via electromagnetic means (or whatever). But however well they perform this task – indeed, even if they succeeded on every single occasion they were deployed – it simply wouldn’t follow for a moment that there are no aspects of the natural world other than the ones they are sensitive to. Similarly, what physics does – and there is no doubt that it does it brilliantly – is to capture those aspects of the natural world susceptible of the mathematical modeling that makes precise prediction and technological application possible. But here too, it simply doesn’t follow for a moment that there are no other aspects of the natural world.

Those who reject Rosenberg’s scientism, then, are not guilty of “special pleading or self-deception,” Rosenberg’s condescending bluster notwithstanding. Rather, they are (unlike Rosenberg) simply capable of recognizing a brazen non sequitur when they see it.

…]

Those beholden to scientism are bound to protest that the analogy is no good, on the grounds that metal detectors detect only part of reality while physics detects the whole of it. But such a reply would simply beg the question once again, for whether physics really does describe the whole of reality is precisely what is at issue.
 
I am a freethinker in the sense that I think for myself unlike many atheists who may call themselves freethinkers but follow like sheep their thought leaders like Dawkins, Dennettt, Hawking etc.
Response:
Are you really “free” to deny the assertions and deviate form the teachings of your “thought leaders”?
When it comes to religious revelation and personal conduct, I perceive God, who unlike mere humans is the only one having absolute authority, to be my “thought leader” if you will (in all things connected to just human knowledge I do not accept an unquestioned “thought leader” – mere humans are always to be questioned):
By the way, of course I am not skeptical of the teachings of the Catholic Church, because I perceive them to come from God, despite the, sometimes miserable, human failings of its messengers.

To all the ‘skeptics’ out there who think they could never accept faith because there allegedly never is a good reason to suspend skepticism about anything: have you ever been skeptical of your own skepticism? No? Well, then you are not true skeptics.
This should also answer:
Spoken like a skeptic. The point is that while it is incorrect to doubt EVERYTHING (universal skepticism would be dumb), one must be prepared to doubt ANYTHING if there is a good reason to do so. For a true skeptic nothing is beyond scrutiny, nothing is “sacred”. So you profess skepticism, but as long as there are “exceptions”, you are not a “true” skeptic. Of course you are still way above the run-of-the-mill believers, those whose slogan is: “Jesus said it, I believe it, that is the end of it”.
 
The point is that while it is incorrect to doubt EVERYTHING (universal skepticism would be dumb)
Why would that be dumb? Why wouldn’t you doubt that?

One axiom you must have is that reason is the basis of all that is.
one must be prepared to doubt ANYTHING if there is a good reason to do so.
There is no good reason to doubt anything revealed by God. So, it seems that if this is what it means to be a skeptic, a Catholic certainly can be.
For a true skeptic nothing is beyond scrutiny
Including your own reason, or the rationality of the world?
So you profess skepticism, but as long as there are “exceptions”, you are not a “true” skeptic.
Then no one is. No one can live without trust.
“Jesus said it, I believe it, that is the end of it”.
That is the end of it, if Jesus really is God. Of course it is valuable to reason deeper into the mysteries since “theology adds the dimension of reason to the word of God and thus creates a faith that is deeper, more personal, hence also more concrete in the person’s life,” (Pope Benedict XVI).
 
Quite easily. The belief in God needs to come first. Otherwise it’s just a beautiful waterfall or tree. No less awesome, but not attributed to the handiwork of a being that the viewer doesn’t believe in. Believers continually claim that the existence of God is self-evident just by looking at the world around us. But to the non-believer it just isn’t self-evident. So it’s not a true or useful assertion to make…

If the soul is “above the senses” and immaterial, how do you get tar on it? This makes no sense, so I presume that the ‘tar’ is an analogy. But an analogy of what?.
I wil respectfully disagree. I don’t believe the trees look the same once one comes to faith in God. Trying to explain it is difficult because it cannot be reduced to words-- it comes from experience as well. Many things cannot be reduced to explainatations, such as love, logic, pain, etc.

Yes, my use of the the word “tar” was metaphorical, because the prophet Muhammad [peace be upon him] often spoke poetically. For example, he compared the ego as a black thorn in a person’s heart (spiritual heart, that is). Of course it is possible to examine nature and still be an atheist; I am not denying that. What I meant was that that act, the act of denial, is only possible when one respresses the natural fitra [purity] of God-consciousness, which is present in all persons from birth.

It doesn’t happen overnight. Nobody wakes up an atheist.
Since a heart is a musclar organ for pumping blood I presume that this too is an analogy. A non-believer might counter this by saying: “If a person is truly skeptical then they reserve judgement until sufficient evidence is available, whereas a credulous person will leap to an unjustified conclusion with no evidence at all.”.
Yeah, the “spiritual heart” is a common euphamism and I often use that expression. Being skeptical can be healthy to a certain degree, but if we’re skeptical just for the sake of being skeptical, we’re just going in circles. People accept things on authority all the time. Nobody operates under the assumption that everything needs tangible evidence.

If your friend says “I’ll be back in ten minutes”, do you say “I hope you realize that that is an assumption that lacks credible evidence. Why should I believe you, in light of the fact that your theory is based on blind hope?”.

Do you see what I mean? nobody operates like that. If being a skeptic, as you call it, is just an intellectual excercise, what’s the use of being a skeptic?
Debates between believers and atheists are beset by just this sort of divergence of language. Atheists constantly complain that theists use fanciful and imprecise language and can’t define the meanings of the terms they use. I too get frustrated by inexact language and woolly thinking because it gets in the way of useful debate.
I don’t consider this thread a debate. The thread creator asked a question and we’re free to agree or disagree with whomever we please. It’s perfectly fine if you don’t like my style of wordplay or you find my reasoning to be lacking. There is a time and place for debate, but I don’t see that here. The reason I use poetic language is because I read poetry and I’ve found that it can express profound truths easier.

As I said, it cannot be reduced to words alone.
 
Yet under naturalism every thought, just like everything else, is physically determined. Some propose that freedom of thought might be a result of ‘emerging complexity’, but this is based on a misunderstanding of the concept. While emergence results in phenomena that could not be predicted from the basic components of the system on their own, it never violates the physical laws by which these basic components operate. Such a violation would have to occur if free thought could be the result of purely physical processes, which are either deterministic or, at the quantum level, random on a probabilistic basis (yet significant quantum level influence on thought is not feasible under naturalism, since it would just produce random thoughts).
Some of our brain activity is random firings of the neurons (in our sleep, for example). We are not aware of ALL the underlying physical laws, so you cannot say that “freedom of thought” would violate them. There is another problem here: you do not specify what you mean by “freedom of thought”.
Thus, for the first time, a system would have had the ability to undergo Darwinian evolution by natural selection acting on variation. This would have been a new and crucial emergent property arising at the transition from non-life to life.
As a biologist, I am sure you are aware that there is no hard, dividing line between “live” and “inanimate” matter. It is a matter of opinion.
 
Philosophical evidence. You will say of course that only scientific evidence counts.
What the heck is “philosophical evidence”? Philosophy is not a formal system, so it cannot be based on axioms. It is also not a natural science, which would be based on observations. It is pure speculation.
Rosenberg’s argument, then, is essentially this:
  1. The predictive power and technological applications of physics are unparalleled by those of any other purported source of knowledge.
  2. Therefore what physics reveals to us is all that is real.
Indeed, it WOULD BE a bad argument, if that would be the case. But Feser is wrong in his reasoning. Here is a better way to put it:
  1. Insofar the explanatory and predictive power of the natural sciences is not only unparalleled, but there is no competing explanatory and predictive method. There is no other method which would be able to make any prediction.
  2. Therefore we must wait to see if there ever will be any competing explanatory method, and until such a method emerges, it is rational to stay skeptical about it. This skepticism does not preclude the acceptance of a new method, if and when it is presented, but until that point its is a waste of time to assume it as a working hypothesis. If there are people who not share this sentiment, they are most welcome to invest time and effort and as soon as they have something to present with "predictive’ power, they will be taken seriously.
What was I talking about here? Religious claims or claims of the paranormal? 😉
But here too, it simply doesn’t follow for a moment that there are no other aspects of the natural world.
Certainly. The proponents of the paranormal MIGHT be right. It would be incorrect to dismiss their claims out of hand. Do you consider the claims of the curative powers of pyramidal structures seriously? Or do you wait until some actual evidence is presented?

I certainly do not subscribe to the “black swan fallacy”, but as long as no black swans are presented, I leave the speculations based upon the existence of black swans alone, and wait for the evidence.
 
When it comes to religious revelation and personal conduct, I perceive God, who unlike mere humans is the only one having absolute authority, to be my “thought leader” if you will (in all things connected to just human knowledge I do not accept an unquestioned “thought leader” – mere humans are always to be questioned):
You must be a very lucky person to have received an unquestionable personal revelation from God. I am not so lucky, so the only so-called “thought leaders” I see are the members of the catholic church, and as you see I view them with very strong skepticism. Not because I have any personal reason to do so, but I am equally skeptical of proponents of “crop circles”, of the existence of “Nessie”, etc…
 
One axiom you must have is that reason is the basis of all that is.
That is imprecise. Reason is not an ontological (metaphysical) object, it is an epistemological method. There are two possible starting points: “one is that God is the ontological foundation of everything” and “two, that the universe is an existential primary”. You chose the first one, I choose the second one. There is no doubt that universe exists, and there is very reasonable doubt that God exists. The problem with the god-hypothesis is manyfold, one is that it has no explanatory value. After all the phrase: “an unknowable being, using unimaginable means created the world out of nothing” is not an “explanation”.
There is no good reason to doubt anything revealed by God. So, it seems that if this is what it means to be a skeptic, a Catholic certainly can be.
There is no good reason to accept that there EVER WAS A REVELATION from God. It is all based on hearsay, and the holy scriptures are loaded with errors and nonsense.
Including your own reason, or the rationality of the world?

Then no one is. No one can live without trust.
You miss the point. One must be ready and willing to re-examine even the most fundamental beliefs about reality, IF there is a good reason to do so. Not just wantonly start to question everything.
That is the end of it, if Jesus really is God.
The operating word here is “IF”.
 
While emergence results in phenomena that could not be predicted from the basic components of the system on their own, it never violates the physical laws by which these basic components operate.
This proposition needs to examined in detail, since it is the fundamental basis of your whole argument. Nevertheless it is false.

We can agree that the computers we use are fully deterministic. The electrons, the on-off logical gates all perform according to the laws of physics. There is nothing random about the running of the program - except for some possible bugs, but those can be eliminated. Yet, the actual working of the program is not subject to the laws of physics, and there is no need to assume some supernatural agency.

I hope you are familiar with the MMORG-s (massively multiplayer, on-line roleplaying games). These are virtual reality environments, where the laws of nature simply do not apply. There is magic, resurrection, lay-on-hands, dragons, elves, fairies, you name it. The underlying hardware is fully deterministic, but the virtual world is not subject to the laws of reality.

The same applies to the brain/mind complex. The physical structure of the brain holds the memories, the neurons fire, thought processes occur - most are in the subconscious. The electro-chemical processes are subject to the laws of physics and chemistry, but what they REPRESENT - the thoughts do not. As such, just like with the computer, which does not need the assumption of a supernatural component we have no need for such an agency to explain the freedom of thought.

Just like a given sequence of on-off switch activities can represent many different programs, the same firings of the neurons can represent many different thoughts. There is no one-to-one correspondence between the activities of the underlying physical hardware and its representation of the higher level - be it a program or some thoughts.
 

After all the phrase: “an unknowable being, using unimaginable means created the world out of nothing” is not an “explanation”.
Explanations…
How do you explain your own existence?
 
How can science prove?

Simplicity, meaning no parts, no division, no change.

Ubiquitous

(I can’t remember the term) but can’t be contained by anything. (Ubiquitous is the positive the term I forget is the negative.)

Eternal, no beginning no end.

not contained by time, but also exists at all times equally.

no potential, he is always actual.

I could go on but the properties we give God are things that can’t possibly be explained by science.
 
I hope you are familiar with the MMORG-s (massively multiplayer, on-line roleplaying games). These are virtual reality environments, where the laws of nature simply do not apply. There is magic, resurrection, lay-on-hands, dragons, elves, fairies, you name it. The underlying hardware is fully deterministic, but the virtual world is not subject to the laws of reality.
This argument has been presented before and still is a bad one because it is not merely the underlying hardware (and software) that creates the reality, but, rather, the multiplayers introduce into reality the “indeterministic” elements. Without the “free” (name removed by moderator)ut of the players, constrained, of course, by the underlying hardware and software coding, nothing would happen except for the recursive programming loops that generate predictable and determinate sequences of that reality.

Your analogy doesn’t show what you think it does because the full “reality” created in those games is not reducible to “the underlying hardware,” even if we ignore the role of “free” programmers in producing the environment via software, we still have to account for the role of human players in orchestrating the activity present there. From where I sit, without them, much of the “reality” you speak of would, to use another analogy, evaporate like rubbing alcohol on a hot day.
 
That is imprecise. Reason is not an ontological (metaphysical) object, it is an epistemological method. There are two possible starting points: “one is that God is the ontological foundation of everything” and “two, that the universe is an existential primary”. You chose the first one, I choose the second one. There is no doubt that universe exists, and there is very reasonable doubt that God exists. The problem with the god-hypothesis is manyfold, one is that it has no explanatory value. After all the phrase: “an unknowable being, using unimaginable means created the world out of nothing” is not an “explanation”.

The operating word here is “IF”.
You do realize that the analogy you use in your subsequent post undermines everything you have said in the one above.
We can agree that the computers we use are fully deterministic. The electrons, the on-off logical gates all perform according to the laws of physics. There is nothing random about the running of the program - except for some possible bugs, but those can be eliminated. Yet, the actual working of the program is not subject to the laws of physics, and there is no need to assume some supernatural agency.

I hope you are familiar with the MMORG-s (massively multiplayer, on-line roleplaying games). These are virtual reality environments, where the laws of nature simply do not apply. There is magic, resurrection, lay-on-hands, dragons, elves, fairies, you name it. The underlying hardware is fully deterministic, but the virtual world is not subject to the laws of reality.
I submit that the same error that led you to believe that “the universe is an existential primary” in the former post has led you to believe the “underlying hardware is fully deterministic” in the latter.

True, the underlying hardware is “fully deterministic” in the sense that it “determines” certain aspects of the virtual reality in the MMORG-s you have such an affinity for, but it is NOT fully “deterministic” in the sense that it can explain itself or determine its own existence or the constraints within its own nature. Electrical engineers and programmers created (aka determined) the circuitry and the software system and programming code that allows the virtual reality to exist.

Now, just as you ignored the (name removed by moderator)ut of programmers (the creators) and players (free agents) when you claimed (or seemed to) that the “virtual world” in MMORG-s games was “fully determined,” ostensibly by the “underlying hardware,” you have been led, by that oversight, to claim the physical world is “an existential primary.” That is, you seem to be ambiguously using “deterministic” to conclude that human reality is reducible to the underlying physical world (hardware) that “runs it.”

Imagine a virtual scientist caught inside the virtual reality world of a MMORG-s game who is trying to figure out that world, based solely upon the experienced reality that is afforded to him in the game. He may conclude that everything he experiences is attributable to the hardware that runs it and can remain quite preoccupied (and deluded) by working out the intricacies of how such a virtual world could emerge from the underlying hardware. He might even insist, owing to being so enamored by his ability to consistently make the connections between the electronic switches that cast up the virtual phenomena and those experienced events. However, his preoccupation and insistence that the virtual world he has found himself within is an “existential primary” one does not falsify the fact that agents from outside that world orchestrate much of what happens in it and prior to the world existing it was intentionally designed, assembled and constructed by intimate and prior knowledge that the underlying physical components had the potential to create such a world to begin with.

Now, that we find ourselves in an analogically similar world to the virtual one in your example should lead us to think that realities of such incomprehensible order and completeness do not merely “create themselves” or “simply exist” with no explanation other than they are “existentially primary.”

In particular, when realities don’t explain their own existence, we ought to be asking what does, not merely presuming they can. The difference, it seems, is between your brand of denial skepticism and a more wholesome one that continually explores possibilities until the full story comes to light.

Again, from my perspective, a conclusion that the universe is “existentially primary” just seems to ignore a great deal about how things come about - they just don’t “bootstrap” into existence fully realized without cause or reason.

You may think the existence of virtual worlds supports such a conclusion, but, clearly, realities, either virtual or physical, are neither existentially prime nor are they fully determined in the sense you believe them to be.

If God has “no explanatory value” then neither do the programmers and players in the MMORG-s explain anything at all about the virtual realities that exist there. We can safely dismiss the existence of programmers and players as having “no explanatory value” and safely conclude, as you do, that the virtual worlds in those games are completely explainable by the “underlying hardware.”

Colour me skeptical. :cool:
 
You must be a very lucky person to have received an unquestionable personal revelation from God. I am not so lucky, so the only so-called “thought leaders” I see are the members of the catholic church, and as you see I view them with very strong skepticism. Not because I have any personal reason to do so, but I am equally skeptical of proponents of “crop circles”, of the existence of “Nessie”, etc…
I view the hierarchy of the Catholic Church also with skepticism; as I had pointed out in an earlier post I perceive the teachings of the Catholic Church" to come from God, despite the, sometimes miserable, human failings of its messengers".

Nonetheless I believe that the Holy Spirit leads the Church in its teachings. And I also believe that a good number of the members of the hierarchy do lead holy lives.
 
Certainly. The proponents of the paranormal MIGHT be right. It would be incorrect to dismiss their claims out of hand. Do you consider the claims of the curative powers of pyramidal structures seriously? Or do you wait until some actual evidence is presented?

I certainly do not subscribe to the “black swan fallacy”, but as long as no black swans are presented, I leave the speculations based upon the existence of black swans alone, and wait for the evidence.
Neither Feser nor I believe in the paranormal, nor does any other informed Catholic. No Ouija board or telepathy for me, sorry. And no, I do not consider the claims of the curative powers of pyramidal structures seriously.

If you are looking for magic, don’t look for it in my beliefs.

On the other hand, you really do believe in magic when you claim free thought somehow can emerge superimposed on the working of the laws of physics and transcends them. But Peter Plato has already replied to you on some crucial failings of your argumentation.

You also believe in magic when you claim that the universe “is an existential primary” that apparently demands no further explanation. For this, the reason why atheists rather than theists are the ones believing in magic, see also Feser’s article,

Magic versus metaphysics
 
You must be a very lucky person to have received an unquestionable personal revelation from God.
By the way, I have never received an unquestionable personal revelation from God, nor have I had any clear “religious experience” of any kind.

I keep believing in God and His divine revelation for rational reasons. If God has not given me any personal experience of the divine, at least He has given me rationality to put to good use. After years of intense encounter of naturalism/atheism through literature and numerous discussions I have concluded that the foundations of naturalism are rationally too weak to embrace the worldview. I am decidedly unimpressed by it.
 
As a biologist, I am sure you are aware that there is no hard, dividing line between “live” and “inanimate” matter. It is a matter of opinion.
Of course I am aware of it. By the way, as stated, I am a biochemist, not a biologist.
 
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